Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Discussing the mapping/spriting/coding efforts involved in creating a version of SS13 that takes place on a planet surface. Will be finished Soon(TM)

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TribeOfBeavers
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:29 pm #268201

I don't really know if I like these changes or not, but I had some questions about them.


How does latejoining work with this? Do people just kinda spontaneously appear?

Are there still silicons?

How will this work with low populations? Will the difficulty scale down?

Is the exit portal like the escape shuttle where everyone has to be there at a specific moment to escape? Or is it open for a period of time?

Is there an equivalent to the "hijack" traitor objective?

Some items are only obtainable/restockable through cargo, will those become obtainable in some other way?


Also, I know a lot of people won't care, but how does this setting work with our (admittedly low) RP standards? Stuff like:

How long is the crew supposedly on the planet before the round starts?
How do admin Centcomm messages work?
What do we call the rounds IC? "Shift" doesn't really work.
How do we justify the ship crashing into the same planet every round?
Do we "remember" what happened in the last round?
Etc.



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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:40 pm #268206

TribeOfBeavers wrote:
How does latejoining work with this? Do people just kinda spontaneously appear?


Waking up from a cryo pod.

Are there still silicons?


Yes

How will this work with low populations? Will the difficulty scale down?


Yes

Is the exit portal like the escape shuttle where everyone has to be there at a specific moment to escape? Or is it open for a period of time?


Period of time

Is there an equivalent to the "hijack" traitor objective?


I guess "make sure only badguys escape" would be codeable but very hard to complete so I'm not sure.

Some items are only obtainable/restockable through cargo, will those become obtainable in some other way?


Depends which items. Would probably be better to just make more things constructable.

How do admin Centcomm messages work?


Hopefully not

What do we call the rounds IC? "Shift" doesn't really work.


Good question

How do we justify the ship crashing into the same planet every round?


Ignore it the same way we ignore being nuked or eaten by Nar-sie every round. I'm rethinking the crash being the reason for no shuttle/comms for the sake of vague continuity though.

How long is the crew supposedly on the planet before the round starts?


I was thinking a few weeks. Long enough to settle in and set up. If we change away from having it be a crash though it could just be ambiguous like we have now.

Do we "remember" what happened in the last round?


That has always sort of been up to players and been dubiously canon at best

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby captain sawrge » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:43 pm #268209

How long do you envision having rounds go on for?

On the topic of hijack, maybe have some form of sabotaging the gate's construction so it only lets antags through or something. Or just "have less than x amount of people escape"
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:49 pm #268212

Thanks for answering!

If there are no centcomm message equivalents, how will admin events be run? Or will that no longer be a thing?

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Bombadil » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:15 am #268244

Yeah like uh how will deathsquads be run? I mean when there's a really bad murderboner i've seen admins bring in death squad if most of the crew is dead and theres like 5 survivors and the murderboner has the disk how is the round supposed to end?



Would deathsquad be monsters that seemingly hunt those with a great bloodlust?
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:16 am #268247

Durkel wrote:You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round, perhaps tied to each department. My number one concern about this is railroading, and that would go a long ways to alleviating it.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Tokiko2 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:28 am #268266

What if it was a ship that has landed on the surface instead of a base? Kind of like Metroid: Zero Mission's final area. I feel that might meet the space lovers in the middle without actually changing much. Baystation had several ship maps and they've still been considered a Space Station codebase. Usually ships are hard to do with just one level, but with multi-z level maps it should be much easier. You could still have gates, fences and other structures built around the ship too.

This would also open up new possible goals for the crew. Just to list a few: Repair/powering of a warp drive to get off the planet and win a round, or finding/processing/researching fuel for the drive, hunting for materials to replace broken components in said drive, repairing structural damage to the ship so it can actually leave, finding new alien parts that replace the standard parts of the ship, having an asteroid belt around the planet and requiring a shield system in harder difficulties and so on. You could even have the game randomly pick several of these goals and assign a different difficulty to each task to make rounds more varied but still goal based.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Armhulen » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:35 am #268280

Tokiko2 wrote:What if it was a ship that has landed on the surface instead of a base? Kind of like Metroid: Zero Mission's final area. I feel that might meet the space lovers in the middle without actually changing much. Baystation had several ship maps and they've still been considered a Space Station codebase. Usually ships are hard to do with just one level, but with multi-z level maps it should be much easier. You could still have gates, fences and other structures built around the ship too.

This would also open up new possible goals for the crew. Just to list a few: Repair/powering of a warp drive to get off the planet and win a round, or finding/processing/researching fuel for the drive, hunting for materials to replace broken components in said drive, repairing structural damage to the ship so it can actually leave, finding new alien parts that replace the standard parts of the ship, having an asteroid belt around the planet and requiring a shield system in harder difficulties and so on. You could even have the game randomly pick several of these goals and assign a different difficulty to each task to make rounds more varied but still goal based.

Randomly generate names of parts on the ship, the ones that need replacement, and the replacements themselves
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby ThanatosRa » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:37 am #268283

MisterPerson wrote:The way git works, every single commit is a backup.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:53 am #268295

Luke Cox wrote:This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round


The OP mentioned multiple ways of ending the round and I reiterated that several times in the thread. Thanks for confirming you've not been reading my replies to you at least, saves me the trouble of having to write more of them.

TribeOfBeavers wrote:how will admin events be run?


Hopefully with a bit more subtley than "Centcomm Announces: WE MADE IAN INTO A GIANT PEPE RUN"

In all seriousness I'm not sure yet, one of the many things I'll have to figure out.

captain sawrge wrote:How long do you envision having rounds go on for?


I think aiming for 40-60 minutes would be a good starting point. Maybe longer when people are used to the new setting and there are more goals that people will want to stay and accomplish in it.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:59 am #268306

The Emergency Response Team can remain as is, you could argue they were dispatched to find and assist the lost space station crew. You would need to balance the fact that they arrive in a ship, perhaps make it that they have to refuel the ship or install some kind of escape shield to let the ship safely leave the station.

For the Deathsquad you have two choices.

  1. Deathsquad remain as is, bit iffy lore wise to justify why they would expend the effort to destroy a station that's already doomed but its the path of least resistance code wise.
  2. Change the Deathsquad to be affiliated with the United Earth Government, fluff it up that the UEG, for some reason, want to ensure the station and crew are killed in action on the planet. Maybe they want to use the death of the crew as political capital to take over mining operations for that sweet plasma.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:09 am #268316

Kor wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:This is actually a pretty good idea. I'd be on board if we had multiple ways of ending the round


The OP mentioned multiple ways of ending the round and I reiterated that several times in the thread. Thanks for confirming you've not been reading my replies to you at least, saves me the trouble of having to write more of them.


Perhaps I'm missing something, but all I got from the OP is this that engineering needs to power the gateway to escape. What am I missing? To clarify, I'm talking about ending the round in a crew victory. I don't want the gateway and the corruption to monopolize the round. I'm still firmly of the opinion that antags should be the main source of conflict, with the monsters being an environmental hazard.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Wyzack » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:14 am #268318

I had the idea that maybe some sort of planetside anomaly or orbital debris field prevents any sort of meaningful long distance communication. Perhaps the anomalies are what the crew has been sent to study.

I have been playing a lot of Stalker so this may be influencing my ideas
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Bombadil » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:26 am #268326

Wyzack wrote:I had the idea that maybe some sort of planetside anomaly or orbital debris field prevents any sort of meaningful long distance communication. Perhaps the anomalies are what the crew has been sent to study.

I have been playing a lot of Stalker so this may be influencing my ideas



>Travelling jungle cutting down tall grass

>WRR WRRR WRRR

>Sky turns red

>Oh fuck

>Turn into pile of ash
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Okand37 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:28 am #268330

No worries kor, throw all the mapping onto me and it shall be done!
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Qbopper » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:34 am #268336

Okand37 wrote:No worries kor, throw all the mapping onto me and it shall be done!


i'll FIGHT you
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Durkel » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:48 am #268374

Bombadil wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I had the idea that maybe some sort of planetside anomaly or orbital debris field prevents any sort of meaningful long distance communication. Perhaps the anomalies are what the crew has been sent to study.

I have been playing a lot of Stalker so this may be influencing my ideas



>Travelling jungle cutting down tall grass

>WRR WRRR WRRR

>Sky turns red

>Oh fuck

>Turn into pile of ash


>not just sitting in your makeshift hut with your buds watching the storm rage around you

>not watching a lighting bolt strike some dumb ass lizard who didn't find cover.

>not getting swept away by the flooding river and drowning.

Do you even jungle bro? Rains and monsoons or bust.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby ShadowDimentio » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:56 am #268377

>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:09 am #268382

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

Lightning rod engine when
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:25 am #268385

Luke Cox wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

Lightning rod engine when

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby MrStonedOne » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:27 am #268386

Luke Cox wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:>Put lightning rod outside
>Lightning strikes it
>ENERGY BOOOOOST!

Lightning rod engine when


An engine that runs on lightning?

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, nobody would like it.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby onleavedontatme » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:51 am #268390

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25154

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/25150

Goof is already making good progress.

More in depth design document should be up by Friday.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby ShadowDimentio » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:14 am #268392

I feel as though the source of the "corruption" should be a temple Aztec-like structure that's crawling with monsters and player-controlled cultists, with the dead center being a very out of place alien cloning pod facility that's spawning all the monsters that the temple proper was built around.

Attacking it triggers the DEFENSE MATRIX that locks down the room (no teleporting in or out, no leaving until everyone inside is dead and fed to the pods), spawns secborgs a defensedroid boss to fuck everyone up, assisted by swarmers. Beating the defensedroid gives players control over the pods (mob aggro, intensity, or activity at all are controlled by it), and more excitingly spits out special parts that can completely fix the beacon back on the station to escape, along with some other stuff for R&D and such.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Oldman Robustin » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:43 am #268420

Just like datum antags I like this as a mode/map but people always overreach and decide IM GOING TO REVOLUTIONIZE EVERYTHING FOREVER!!!

Just make it a mode, seriously. I'm trying to save you from yourself here Kor. Balancing shit around every antag type is already almost design suicide, but even if you pull that off its simply a matter of taste for a lot of people.

Excuses like "Lavaland is popular!" doesn't justify turning the entire game on its head. Lavaland is popular but it also works because its just one job so people who crave loot and smashing NPC's over and over can get their fix, making the entire station play lavaland is a whole nother story. If you think calling the shuttle at 20 minutes is bad you're going to see a whole new level when the station reaches a critical mass of fuck and you can't even just try to survive anymore, you're dead no matter what so just tab out and wait for the nuke because you can't even get the gratification of surviving the mess.

But yea, I hope you listen to all the comments suggesting that this is a unique mode or unique map that we play SOMETIMES. I just don't understand the urge to flip the table over when we have a game that's been growing in popularity despite its outdated engine/graphics/everything - where are you getting this idea that SS13 has some deep seated flaw that needs to be excised by turning it into a PVE tower defense game?

I haven't heard a convincing reason so far why this shouldn't be a map/mode thing. This idea already has a lot of support and I would even be willing to help based on the understanding that the dirt I'm excavating for this thing isn't going to end up being piled over regular gameplay. I don't see anyone saying "well I'd like to help but I won't do anything unless it completely replaces everything else we play on right now" - and even if someone did say that I wouldn't trust anyone with that kind of selfish mindset... people just want to contribute know that this will be seen through and not abandoned, and the odds of success go WAY up when it doesn't happen every single round.

Anyway before I turn into a broken record: This sounds fun, I would enjoy this as something that happens in 10-25% of my rounds, but you're making a lot of sweeping assumptions in supporting the notion that this needs to be a fulltime 100% thing. I don't see why it can't be a map and let player voting help dictate how much its going to dominate the rotation. That was we can vote the hell out of it while its new/fresh and ease off when it gets repetitive.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby ShadowDimentio » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:45 am #268422

I hope for all these coders' sake that this ends well, 'cause if the house of cards collapses and months of work gets reverted people are going to burn out HARD.
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">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Iatots » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:27 am #268444

Except for engineering having a job and sec being catch-all sentinels there isn't much in this thread about inter-department cooperation.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:26 am #268454

we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Scott » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:19 am #268455

Would be nice to have datum antags for that.

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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby TheColdTurtle » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:31 am #268456

Would love to help, but I don't know how/ am useless
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Reece » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:13 pm #268462

Kudzu station. Let cargo order goats

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MisterPerson
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:27 pm #268465

Remie Richards wrote:we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.


Maybe in the future, but doing this will basically require datum antags to be feasible. So I don't really consider this "get off the ground" material.
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Remie Richards
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:48 pm #268470

MisterPerson wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.


Maybe in the future, but doing this will basically require datum antags to be feasible. So I don't really consider this "get off the ground" material.


I disagree, as I've stated above, the system (while still in "get off the ground" mode) would use traditional gamemode datums, would it be better with datum antags? of course, so would the rest of the game, nothing is changing there.
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Armhulen
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Armhulen » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:41 pm #268484

THE THING ICE WORLD HOLY SHIT.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Jazaen » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:42 pm #268503

Remember Simia Orichalcae? We wouldn't be limited to changelings.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:44 pm #268505

Armhulen wrote:THE THING ICE WORLD HOLY SHIT.


Why d'you think I got a PR up that allows hair to look nicer in winterhoods?
Cmon people, everything has a plan and a purpose!
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Lombardo2 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:47 pm #268507

Man so much debate. Not that it's relevant but I have played ss13 since 2011 with long periods of inactivity and that's because it does get repetitive after a long while. I came back recently and there are a lot of new features that make me come back.

I think the essence of the game is having a crew operate a station, be it on space or somewhere else and enjoy the dynamics that arise from that. Take a look at colonial marines, it's totally different from "traditional" space station and yet it is one of the most popular servers.

I imagine the dynamics that would arise and I'm all aboard this idea. Also, I can help with the sprites if you need it.

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Luke Cox
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:35 pm #268665

Remie Richards wrote:we're long over due a map-specific gamemode config, I agree with robustin this would probably work more as a custom map+mode, atleast to get it off the ground.
It lets us have the variety without removing the "Space" from space station 13 (shut up about the mining in space thing, not all custom map+modes would have that)

Then we can branch out with more of these "Scenarios"
- Space Station, Main Scenario, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes
- Lava Planet, Includes "Survival - Traitor", "Survival - Endless Waves" w/e
- Ice Planet, Includes "Not a Sucky Version Of Changeling"
- Aqua Station, Includes "Classic" Gamemodes, Water-specific modes.

etc.

I wouldn't mind this actually. Include one vote for the scenario, and another for the map. Or just remove the map vote and make the map random if we don't want to overcomplicate things. Everybody wins.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby captain sawrge » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:40 pm #268669

The scenario thing is again, just splitting development focus.
If it happens, I'd much rather see it after this has been given ample time to be fleshed out and reach a satisfactory stage of development
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Luke Cox
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:44 pm #268670

It'll definitely take a lot of development time and resources (one reason I'm still very wary of this), but it's the only way I see this working in the long run. It's the most reasonable compromise too. Sometimes people can have their classic 2d spessmen, sometimes we can have planetary survival. Doing this will take longer, but it has the highest chance of success.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby kevinz000 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:03 pm #268675

Acceptance stage.

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Luke Cox
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:23 pm #268679

kevinz000 wrote:Acceptance stage.

I see a compromise that people from both sides seem open to. We put classic 2D spessmen and planetary survival on rotation, and neither get stale since both show up periodically.
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Scott » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:33 pm #268682

Had we antag datums, we could have maps designed for specific kinds of antags to try out new ways of playing SS13. Kind of like custom maps in shooters/strategy games being their own game.

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Remie Richards
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:41 pm #268683

Scott wrote:Had we antag datums, we could have maps designed for specific kinds of antags to try out new ways of playing SS13. Kind of like custom maps in shooters/strategy games being their own game.


as I said above, we don't need antag datums for this.
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MisterPerson
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:46 pm #268686

The goal in a first pass is to keep it simple. Adding and maintaining new gamemodes is not keeping it simple. Replacing is much easier than adding on here.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

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Remie Richards
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Remie Richards » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:47 pm #268687

MisterPerson wrote:The goal in a first pass is to keep it simple. Adding and maintaining new gamemodes is not keeping it simple. Replacing is much easier than adding on here.


False, if you implement a simple non-extensible system then you are simply adding on more work for the future (the removal of the simple system)
It's important that the first pass gets a correct, solid foundation.
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Luke Cox
 
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:50 pm #268688

MisterPerson wrote:The goal in a first pass is to keep it simple. Adding and maintaining new gamemodes is not keeping it simple. Replacing is much easier than adding on here.


But if you replace the core game permanently, you're going to lose a significant chunk of the playerbase. If you want it to work, you're going to have to do it the hard way.
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ThanatosRa
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Re: Planetary Station """""design""""" document

Postby ThanatosRa » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:12 pm #268693

The thing is, with the Scenario idea, it DOES need a proof of concept. Kor's idea, I think, is the best place to start this proof of concept.


Also, I want it partially to spite Luke because fuck him.
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