[Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

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CoolDude223334
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:03 pm

[Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by CoolDude223334 » #621080

BYOND account: Cooldude22333
Character name: Jack Anton
Ban type: Security.
Ban length: 10 days
Ban reason: MRP - More inappropriate use of lethals as security. Suspected a clown wearing detective gear as a revolutionary, which is fair. However, used this information to shoot them dead. The revolution did not seem to reach the levels of chaos to justify this, and it's preferred that you either give them brute force to the head, which can deconvert, or arrest and hold them until you get implants.
Time ban was placed: 6:30 PM.
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 174071.
Your side of the story: I was playing as latejoin HOS during a revolt. The captain was dragged into space and murdered by the QM, who then proceeded to run around until they where caught, a officer was SSD, the warden suicided and the detective was murdered as well. On top of all of this, someone had stolen the implants. Later, a officer, the captain or CMO called out that the clown was a rev, and I went to arrest them. I noticed he had the detective's baton, and connected the dots that the clown very well could have been the killer. I used the makarov from the contraband locker I grabbed after the QM went on their spree, and shot the clown. I then dragged the clown into the brig, stunning somebody who came close to me. Afterwards, we ordered and used mindshields on a person arrested, who I confirmed via implant to be a revhead, who I then shot. I handled four revs, the QM, the clown, the lawyer and Joseph Nape. After I saw the message for the revolution ending, as well as the bwoink, I returned the makarov into the locker as I no longer required it.
Why you think you should be unbanned: The clown was holding the police baton. I was given information they where a rev, we had a dead detective and they had their stuff, including one of their weapons. Not only could he have used the baton to stun me to potentially harm me in some fashion, he might have also had the gun. While checking the roundend screen does not show him as a rev, I was being given info that he was, and he had items that tied him to a murder. I also did not know the number of revs was small, because from my initial understanding, I thought Nape was just flashing people en mass. While I can accept I was wrong about the clown, I do not think this is a fit punishment, as at that point, I was dealing with a unknown number of revs, and the lack of mindshields had me worried I'd be mobbed. I was working off the information I had. I know my record is not clean on this matter, and I'm willing to admit fault, but this honestly doesn't feel like a fit punishment. If I do end up getting banned for the full ten or a reduced amount of days, I'll likely end up accepting it, but this game is built on working with limited information, and as I couldn't deconvert him, with mindshield or otherwise because he wasn't a rev, and trying to use a baton would likely end up with him dead anyway, I 100% believed he was a rev, from the information given to me via sec radio, and from the items he had, had no idea about how the strength of the rev was not as large as I first suspected, and the detective baton also marking him as a armed target.

Anything else we should know: While I don't agree with the ban, I can still see the reason here. I hope explaining my thought process before and during the incident will at the least explain my reasoning. I don't want to say anything bad about Jared here as he wasn't disrespectful of me, and also consulted another admin, and I'd hope their day goes well.
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Vekter
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Re: [Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by Vekter » #621082

I figured I'd weigh in on this since I'm the admin Mothblocks consulted.

The main issue here is that you didn't really have much of a good reason to kill them at this point. Yes, there was a revolution going on, but it was in its early stages and sec had most of the situation under control. There was pretty much zero reason to actually execute the clown in this case - you could have easily kept him in perma until Cargo could order more implants. Was it more efficient to kill him as he likely might've murdered the player in question? Yeah, probably, but a lot less fun for everyone in general. The situation could have easily been handled by just keeping him alive and implanting him. Had the revolution been more of a threat at the time, I would agree that killing would be justified, but this really wasn't necessary at the time.
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CoolDude223334
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: [Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by CoolDude223334 » #621091

Vekter wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:49 am I figured I'd weigh in on this since I'm the admin Mothblocks consulted.

The main issue here is that you didn't really have much of a good reason to kill them at this point. Yes, there was a revolution going on, but it was in its early stages and sec had most of the situation under control. There was pretty much zero reason to actually execute the clown in this case - you could have easily kept him in perma until Cargo could order more implants. Was it more efficient to kill him as he likely might've murdered the player in question? Yeah, probably, but a lot less fun for everyone in general. The situation could have easily been handled by just keeping him alive and implanting him. Had the revolution been more of a threat at the time, I would agree that killing would be justified, but this really wasn't necessary at the time.
I go into detail on that. I heard about nape flashing people, the captain died and I honestly was thinking I was going to get mobbed at one point or another. I didn't have the ability to tell they only had one other person actually doing things. I also used my stun baton on somebody following me with the clown because I thought they where gonna try something dumb, and while they didn't, I didn't realize it was completely under control. I also think it had a lot to do with alot of crew helping against the revolt, including a para med and cargo tech, and the CMO. We had one head down when we got nape and the QM, and I honestly took somebody speaking about Nape flashing somebody as him going around and flashing a BUNCH of people. Looking back, you are correct that it wasn't as much of a threat as I thought it was, but I did believe they were at the time. To be honest, I also did find it a bit lame the revolution ended when it did. Two heads and a single recruit isn't exactly the most fun to fight as once the QM died, it was just us rolling over Nape and the lawyer. Having our warden suicide and a officer SSD also set off alarm bells for me. Thanks for weighing in here, anyhow.
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Mothblocks
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Byond Username: Jaredfogle

Re: [Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by Mothblocks » #621095

A few notes for context:

1. This was an urgent ahelp ping, meaning I was logging onto a server with hardly any context as to what had happened in the round prior. I noticed that there were not a large amount of revolutionaries in the team, that the station looked more or less intact, and some confused people in the usual "there were revs?" sense. I think you only mentioned the captain part in the initial ahelp, but this appeal provides a good bit more context as to having reason to believe the revolution was a lot rowdier than it actually was. Considering a good chunk of the ban length was predicated on my view of the revolution, I think it's good that you bring all this up, as it eases my worries there.

2. As one piece of missing context, I'm glad you brought up the clown having a baton. I do not believe you mentioned this in the ahelp, but it at least gives a better idea as to why you chose not to use your own stun baton. That being said, one thing that sticks out to me is why you chose to use a revolver and not your disabler? A good bit of this is predicated on the fact that, as the HoS, you have a lot of tools available to you to detain people rather than kill them. Even supposing you didn't have your disabler ready, you could have saved some headache (and bullets!) by revolvering them into crit, and cuffing them.

Interested in your answer in that specifically. I'm willing to lower the ban length based on the newly provided context on the revolution, but shooting them dead is something I took issue with, which I've had corroborated from a few more seasoned MRP admins.
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CoolDude223334
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: [Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by CoolDude223334 » #621096

Mothblocks wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:15 am A few notes for context:

1. This was an urgent ahelp ping, meaning I was logging onto a server with hardly any context as to what had happened in the round prior. I noticed that there were not a large amount of revolutionaries in the team, that the station looked more or less intact, and some confused people in the usual "there were revs?" sense. I think you only mentioned the captain part in the initial ahelp, but this appeal provides a good bit more context as to having reason to believe the revolution was a lot rowdier than it actually was. Considering a good chunk of the ban length was predicated on my view of the revolution, I think it's good that you bring all this up, as it eases my worries there.

2. As one piece of missing context, I'm glad you brought up the clown having a baton. I do not believe you mentioned this in the ahelp, but it at least gives a better idea as to why you chose not to use your own stun baton. That being said, one thing that sticks out to me is why you chose to use a revolver and not your disabler? A good bit of this is predicated on the fact that, as the HoS, you have a lot of tools available to you to detain people rather than kill them. Even supposing you didn't have your disabler ready, you could have saved some headache (and bullets!) by revolvering them into crit, and cuffing them.

Interested in your answer in that specifically. I'm willing to lower the ban length based on the newly provided context on the revolution, but shooting them dead is something I took issue with, which I've had corroborated from a few more seasoned MRP admins.
Thanks for listening, and im happy to answer. Some people on comms mentioned a revolution in the medbay at some point, meaning I didn't want to chance getting ganked in medbay, though it seems to have not actually have been a real threat. I didn't have my egun charged because I forgot, I forgot I grabbed a disabler in the armory, and my locker was stolen as well as the CE's locker and the mindshields, so my HOS laser was not a option either. In hindsight I do agree that putting him into crit and brining him to medbay would have been a better choice, if not just remembering I packed a disabler in my bag for this exact thing, but whats done is done and I'd rather learn from this and do better as a sec player moving foward. I can understand how you'd come to your choice seeing as you had joined from a urgent ping, and I don't blame you for not knowing some of the circumstances. I am fine with just lowering it, and maybe a bit of a note edit, if you don't decide to fully lift the ban. I got a bit confused with the wording at first, but taking a better look at it, I got what you where going for, being around what you told me in the ahelp. You can handle this however you want, but I'd like to thank you for taking the time to consider this.
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Mothblocks
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Re: [Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by Mothblocks » #621097

That's a satisfactory enough answer for me. Given your prior notes about inappropriate use of lethals as security, I won't be totally lifting it, but from the extra context you provided, and your overall outlook after enough time, I'll lower the ban from 10 day sec ban to a 3 day sec ban, half of your previous one.

Before I wrap this up, though, I very much appreciate your conduct in both the ticket but also especially the appeal.
Shaps-cloud wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:59 am May eventually become one of the illusive maintainer-headmins if they choose to pursue that path, having a coder in the senior admin leadership has usually been positive for both sides in the past.
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Head Admin of /tg/station Feb 2022.

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CoolDude223334
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: [Jaredfogle] CoolDude22333 - shot clown suspected of revolution

Post by CoolDude223334 » #621144

I can understand that, and as the clown wasn't actually a rev, I can't really say something didn't happen, but you have also been respectful in hearing my end of what happened, and 3 days is, while still a bummer, not the end of the world. And I am glad you noticed my conduct here, as I do try to be polite when these things happen, it usually gets you a better outcome to be polite rather then act like a whiny child, and as sec player, I sorta understand the idea of being the thankless job that keeps gears turning, with everybody giving you scrutiny for everything you do and don't do. Admins already have to deal with policy shit, shit players, the fuckups, disagreements, and just keeping things running and fun, being rude in a ban appeal not only won't get me anywhere, but it'd also be ironic with how Jack complains about how people always treat him as a bad guy because "haha shitsec" IC and to turn around and treat somebody who volunteered to admin a server for a 2D spess game the same way. All that aside, thanks for listening to my side of the story and thanks for shortening it. Have a good one
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