iain0 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:36 pm
And you're asking for a permit to "late game murder everyone on sight" without even hard proof of a revolution?
No, I quoted that rule as an example that command can respond proportionally to the situation.
Secondly, the law upload to the AI is a clear "kill almost everyone" law, without any nuance, the AI has no way of knowing who is a revolutionary, it can't even easily (from its core) spot a fake unshielded security officer, the only way to hard prevent a revolutionary is to kill everyone who could be. Which is basically everyone. I doubt it can even really confirm a head of staff, but lets consider a couple of situations.
- You walk into medbay, the place is deserted, corpses everywhere, in the far corner is an MD working on a mangled corpse. They don't even acknowledge your presence and just carry on doing their job. Moments pass and nothing happens. You decide you have a late game rev permit and gun them down, their only action being the 'why?' escaping their lips as they die. Does this seem okay given there isn't even a revolution? No? Well thats what you told the AI to do, murder all the people.
- A late join security officer joins and decides to arrest a vandal in the main corridor. You enter the scene and murder both of them. Valid? Nope. And again that's what you told the AI to do because it has no reason to care about the sec officer or preserve its life given it can kill someone who might be a revolutionary.
Even if it WAS late game revs, and it isn't, you lose ALL the subtlety and nuance of implementing late game rev policy by turning it into a clean murderbone AI rule.
But ultimately there's no way you can have achieved a reasonable level of confidence to authorise station wide mass murder because there isn't even a revolution in the first place, so there can be no firm proof.
This isn't what the law says. The law says to prevent revolutionary takeover of the station. Killing random people doesn't further this goal at all. You could go the same for asimov "hur dur kill all non humans to prevent human harm", crew is protected by rule 1 against such things for exactly this reason.
First and foremost, lets be clear about one thing, this is NOT a round that contains a revolution
), and while I'm all too familiar with the typical hysteria on Terry and people calling revs as soon as anyone gets flashed there is NOT a revolution which means you don't even have hard proof, because you can't have hard proof - that is, discovery of a contraband sec hud, a resisted mindshield, a deconverted mindshield, a deconverted via blow to head - none of these happened because none of these can happen because there isn't a revolution.
The note is also quite neutral and doesn't even mention that it wasn't a revolutionary round or that anything happened, instead just focussing on the obvious loophole that this is a clear murderbone rule. In hindsight maybe I should have mentioned the rest of it since it's a pretty poor choice to upload this law without a revolution (which almost certainly played into me noting you, but I would probably also have reasons for focussing on this one aspect only. or i forgot to go back and edit the note at round end since that would be IC information in the note. i dont remember any more, been too long).
Look I now this looks dumb without context but this wasn't particularly a round where things were going normal. The round started with the CMO being murdered:
First Death: Tim Hemos, Chief Medical Officer, at Medbay Central (90,89,2). Damage taken: 214.8/0/0/0/0.
And everyone going bonkers about revs:
07:30:47 SAY Schuggi999/(Alec Keppel) "revs?"
07:32:48 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "REVS"
07:32:49 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "REVS"
07:32:53 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "REVS REAL"
07:32:57 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "REVS REAL"
07:32:58 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "REVS REAL"
07:33:00 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "REVS REAL"
07:33:27 SAY Improvedname/(Lenald Wabbite) "because revs real"
07:39:12 SAY Listick/(Alex Shield) "well there are revs"
07:42:30 SAY Swagmaster696969/(Primrose ''Schroedinger'' Seyvah) "REVS!!"
07:42:41 SAY LiarGG/(G.I.B.S.) "you truly revs"
07:43:03 SAY Listick/(Alex Shield) "you know there are revs going around"
07:43:25 SAY Pugaware/(Daria Morgendorffer) "alreayd a rev"
07:43:43 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) "revs real"
07:43:50 SAY Pugaware/(Daria Morgendorffer) "revs"
07:43:53 SAY Voudez/(Lucia Valdez) "rev..?"
07:43:55 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) "rev"
07:44:23 SAY Helios12345/(Sam Hill) "REV PRANKD!!"
07:44:25 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) "against the revolution"
07:44:31 SAY Mazur907/(Abdul Al Qanim) "there is no revolution"
07:44:33 SAY Helios12345/(Sam Hill) "REV PRANKD"
07:44:41 SAY Mtgovers/(Thundercloud) "is revs confirmed"
07:44:41 SAY Mtgovers/(Thundercloud) (binary) "Is revs confirmed"
07:45:02 SAY Pugaware/(Daria Morgendorffer) "revs real"
07:45:37 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) "im getting revs"
07:45:41 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) "for revs"
07:46:54 SAY Oether/(Hadrian Wall) "headrev"
People were also shooting lasers everywhere and throwing spears/gibtonite and stuff, people were flashing, the detective was getting lynched by a mob, it is hard to explain such an information space from logs alone.
The note to me stands on two grounds which you will need to counter argue
1) The law is an open ended murderbone law, covers murdering revolutionaries, anyone who /could/ be a revolutionary (anyone other than head of staff) and has no consideration about even collateral in achieving these goals - even if you legitimately think such a type of law is valid to upload you should /probably/ try narrow it down to e.g. not kill sec unless the game is insanely far gone (late late game revs where almost everyone is dead and the place is a ghost-station)
2) This isn't even a revolutionary round and thus you can not really have enough confidence to upload a law that will result in wide-scale deaths, even if better specified as per (1), best you could get away with here is some direct instruction that people attacking sec/com are not human and so on.
Killing sec would literally work against the stated goal of preventing revolutionary takeover. It wouldn't only breach rule 1 protections, it would literally be the opposite of adhering to the lawset. The major point of difference here seems to be that you think that this law permits blanket murder while I think it most certainly doesn't because the AI has to adhere to rule 1 when dealing with players that do not specifically fall under its ruleset e.g. not kill all non humans "just cause".
or as the old silicon rules also stated:
Server Rule 1 "Don't be a dick" applies for law interpretation. Act in good faith to not ruin a round for other players unprompted.
or the new ones (which is just a rewording of the already undocumented policies in place):
Non-purged silicons must follow escalation rules in scenarios where none of their laws apply.
Finally I would like to point out that the only person harmed by borgs or the AI was the botanist that threw combustible lemons on the shuttle and tried to murder the AI there. So neither the rules nor the actions of players in game resulted in this being a "murderbone" law.