[MortoSasye] Appealing a Day Ban

[NecromancerAnne]

Byond account and character name: (NecromancerAnne) Sheness Hollow
Banning admin: MortoSasye
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server Day Ban
Ban reason and length: As a non antag killed the captain for sell "mats" and wasting the credits. Hid the captain corpse in order for them to not get revived. Ban for 1 day.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2018-12-11 09:03:42...server time?
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: I certainly killed the captain as the ban suggests but my reasoning was a little bit more pre-meditated and involves a great deal more complexity than merely just the fact that he was selling mats. I was playing shaft miner at the time and me and Mia Mitchell, another miner, had a bit of trouble out in lavaland but managed to haul back a decent amount of mats and survive a run in with a goliath tendril that nearly saw both of us killed and Mia scoring a tarot deck, which she earned through serious risk to her own life. So at this point we had essentially saved each others butts and I was willing to trust her wholly as a result.

I keep tabs on events on the station pretty closely via radio while I go about my job to keep up to date as to what's happening, but while I'm out in lavaland still I noticed people are getting very mad with the captain, who appears to be making some weird and frankly kind of insane responses to people on the station over something he was doing. I hadn't caught what that was at the time until I got back to the outpost. He was in cargo and people in there were getting angry, according to the radio. I come back stationside with my ore box to find him and Mia in a scuffle, and a scientist and the QM off to the sidelines. Additionally, a security detail of two officers and the detective about to step in. The QM is telling the captain to hide in her office. People are yelling at him about materials over the radio. I pull Mia aside after the scuffle to deposit our ore and ask what was happening. Apparently he had attacked her and that he was selling materials from the ORM to fund the purchasing of strange seeds. Personally, I took offense to this as not only had the captain assaulted someone I considered a friend and a person I trusted to help keep me safe, but was also actively screwing over the two departments I was a part of as a shaft miner (cargo and science, frankly the whole station) as well as myself as I would need mats as well for upgrades. It's well established you only sell plasma in order to get credits, and that selling other materials is going to make people exceptionally angry at you. You do that kind of thing at your own risk and as the person who was supposed to bring that stuff up to the station I felt my work invalidated and made considerably more difficult unnecessarily by one mad captain's actions.

The station plainly wanted his blood if he needed a three man security detail and to be locked into the QM's office for his own safety, and I was willing to take Mia's side in all of this because why would I not? The captain clearly had to be lynched and I knew I was the one who could do it as I had found on lavaland the meat hook (which genuinely is a broken, overpowered piece of shit but I digress). I tell Mia the plan and we agree to suggest to the captain that if he wants mats he should come to lavaland to mine them, which Mia manages to convince him to do. It was mostly Mia initiating the lynch and with me being the help. When we get there, Mia lures him into the base and I get into position for a hook. Suddenly, Mia slips him with syndicate soap.

Take note that up to this point I had zero idea Mia was actually a traitor. I absolutely thought I was the one who would have to do most of the work. She hadn't hinted it and I fully trusted that whatever she had done was as a loyalist crew member. But by this stage I was already in the thick of it and I couldn't conceivably back out now, and I definitely wasn't going to turn on Mia over this condom of a captain, so I followed through with the kill by chain hooking the captain and gutting him with a bone knife. When he was finally dead, Mia revealed she was a traitor. I said I was already committed and that it was too late to back out, and noticed the shuttle was recalled. They were coming to get us. I had Mia strip the captain and hide his gear while I clumsy hid the body. Meat hook produces a lot of bleeding. There was an obvious as hell blood trail to the miner's dorms. It was not particularly well hidden and I mostly wanted to put any security on the back foot for Mia to spring an attack if needed. The warden had showed up with a taser and his shotgun, prepped for a fight. Mia engages him with her Guardian Spirit and I stunned him with the meat hook while Mia's Guardian Spirit teleported him into lava. At this point I had already gone further than I had intended in this lynching and Morto had bwoinked me pretty soon after the captain's death, so I already knew I was being watched. I felt bad for what happened to the warden but the vicious cycle of valids means that security was likely to keep coming and unless I allowed them to kill me and put me out of the round permanently I would likely need to keep killing. I chose to stay on the lavaland base while Mia went station side to continue killing sec. She even asked if I wanted to join her and I refused, because I didn't want to go further than it did. I wasn't an antag and I shouldn't be killing en masse.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I felt this was a valid lynching. The captain was being a massive condom and disruptive to multiple departments. And additionally most of this information I was receiving was from a traitor who could easily have been misleading me in the situation in order to get my help. She wasn't, as apparently the captain had absolutely opened fire on personnel who weren't traitors, and he fully intended to sell station materials to fund strange seeds. But from my perspective and as far as I was aware, I was doing the station a service by removing a problem element, and it was mostly as an accomplice to an actual antagonist who through actual in-game roleplay I had established a bond with that preceded the events that took place.

[imsxz]

Precedent holds that there are acts that are "heinous" enough that you become valid to the crew even if you didn't do something personally to them. The common go-to example is stuff like buying deadly meme shuttles, reciting WGW, etc etc.

[MortoSasye]

Thanks for taking your time to appeal.

After taking a look again at the logs to investigate, i noticed multiple things that has me seriously worried about your appeal, more than i was at the moment i banned you. I will ask the following questions before deciding:

A. Two different versions of a discovery: When i pm'ed you to ask about what happened, and we discussed the situation, you told me the following:

[2018-12-11 08:55:59.814] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): He's wasting mats and credits, and me and Mia decided to lynch. Didn't know she was a tot till she told me. But the captain is clearly pissing people off.

When i looked at this i thought that you found out after the captain was dead.

But here, on this ban appeal you're telling me that you found out when Mia lured him to the mining base.

When we get there, Mia lures him into the base and I get into position for a hook. Suddenly, Mia slips him with syndicate soap.

Take note that up to this point I had zero idea Mia was actually a traitor.

Why are you telling me something different now? Why don't specify you found out before the captain got killed? And why didn't you prevent it after noticing a syndicate traitor was after them, not a fellow centcomm/nanotrasen miner?

B. Why would you continue to kill/lynch the captain when he accepted to go mine to fix his mistakes? [2018-12-11 08:51:30.410] SAY: Morris - exe.cute/(Mia Mitchell) "cap" (Cargo Office (149, 142, 2))

[2018-12-11 08:51:32.729] SAY: Morris - exe.cute/(Mia Mitchell) "wanna come mine with us" (Cargo Office (151, 142, 2))

[2018-12-11 08:51:44.699] SAY: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) "If you want mats you might as well contribute." (Cargo Bay (154, 142, 2))

[2018-12-11 08:51:48.825] SAY: Spankmaster/(Montoyan Artesian) "im happy to mine" (Cargo Bay (158, 144, 2))

C. Why would you help a known traitor fight against security? Specially when you're telling me on this appeal the following:

I felt bad for what happened to the warden but the vicious cycle of valids means that security was likely to keep coming and unless I allowed them to kill me and put me out of the round permanently I would likely need to keep killing.

If you had helped the warden arrest Mia this wouldn't had happened. Hell, if you didn't kill the captain who was trying to fix his mistake this wouldn't have happened, specially the moment you noticed that your mining partner was a traitor.

While assisting a traitor is ok with enough ic reasoning, it seemed excessive to me going all the way to help them kill and get what they need, which curiously was the captain medal. Specially after knowing the captain was going to start mining to sell his own mats.

Non-antagonists are allowed to assist antagonists given sufficient IC reasoning but assisting an antagonist doesn't mean you get to act like one . If in doubt, ask an admin if a particular action is okay. Depending on the level of assistance, sufficient IC reasoning could be simply treating everyone who goes into medbay regardless of them being a murderer or not, all the way to being threatened under pain of death by an antagonist to do something.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

Logs from: https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/basil/ ... 4/game.log

PS: Sorry about any grammar mistake.

[NecromancerAnne]

Thanks for taking your time to appeal.

After taking a look again at the logs to investigate, i noticed multiple things that has me seriously worried about your appeal, more than i was at the moment i banned you. I will ask the following questions before deciding:

A. Two different versions of a discovery: When i pm'ed you to ask about what happened, and we discussed the situation, you told me the following:

[2018-12-11 08:55:59.814] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): He's wasting mats and credits, and me and Mia decided to lynch. Didn't know she was a tot till she told me. But the captain is clearly pissing people off.

When i looked at this i thought that you found out after the captain was dead.

But here, on this ban appeal you're telling me that you found out when Mia lured him to the mining base.

When we get there, Mia lures him into the base and I get into position for a hook. Suddenly, Mia slips him with syndicate soap.

Take note that up to this point I had zero idea Mia was actually a traitor.

Why are you telling me something different now? Why don't specify you found out before the captain got killed? And why didn't you prevent it after noticing a syndicate traitor was after them, not a fellow centcomm/nanotrasen miner?

To be fair, I got exactly one message in before you banned me, and it was pretty close to when I had actually killed the captain and was already trying to think about what to do with the incoming security, so I was juggling multiple situations both in and out of character and was kind of trying to work out what was happening still. I was, in a way, seeing red and prepping myself for another fight. If I had a bit more time to explain myself, maybe I might have been more specific like I was here. There was a long period after Mia left the mining station where I was kind of waiting for you to let me explain further, but I was banned before I could get a say in.

Additionally, I had already come to the conclusion that I was going to kill him, whether Mia was a traitor or not was a non-factor in that, it just happened to be circumstantial to the situation. Additionally, I had forgotten until you mentioned it she had needed the medal, which I also didn't know about until I stashed the body. So while I certainly did help her get an objective, it wasn't the primary goal of my actions and in fact was something of a surprise in of itself. It explains why she was so eager to do it too.

B. Why would you continue to kill/lynch the captain when he accepted to go mine to fix his mistakes?

If you had helped the warden arrest Mia this wouldn't had happened. Hell, if you didn't kill the captain who was trying to fix his mistake this wouldn't have happened, specially the moment you noticed that your mining partner was a traitor.

Simply put, I favoured Mia over the captain. I wasn't gonna be a snitch and I wasn't going to backstab the person who literally saved my life in that same round over some punk captain. Neither was I going to let this warden kill the both of us because that's what he intended when he came down with lethal shotgun rounds and a taser. Again, not really his fault but it was what he was going to do.

As for why I continued, picture if you will me having literal milliseconds to come to a decision as to whether I follow up with Mia's actions and having already come this far. Would the captain lynch us both? Would I be betraying Mia after all this time if I hooked her instead? If I chose to hook Mia, what would I need to tend with then? Does she have adrenals? Was she lying about the Guardian Spirit I knew she likely could have? I made a choice and I stuck with it. As to him coming down to mine, he shouldn't have put himself in this position in the first place, or made so many enemies in doing so. He should have known better, acted better, and hopefully he learned his lesson the hard way.

While assisting a traitor is ok with enough ic reasoning, it seemed excessive to me going all the way to help them kill and get what they need, which curiously was the captain medal. Specially after knowing the captain was going to start mining to sell his own mats.

It wasn't the mistake but the people he hurt along the way because he thought he could use the captainship as a means to do whatever he wanted, and sometimes the most straight forward solution to resolving that issue is a lynching. This is something other admins have told me is the solution to a problematic captain whose actions are egregious enough to actively damage the round, and that if a problem needs to be fixed you do it yourself. I have a tendency to handle problems like this IC and my solution is typically pretty damn permanent. If he wanted to mess around with strange seeds he shouldn't have created such a huge mess along the way and do it the proper way, by fucking asking and contributing via bounties, and particularly in a way that didn't involve him assaulting people for no reason.

While Mia was a traitor, her admitting to being a traitor and needing the medal was both post-lynch. While the context clue of the syndie soap was a give-away, again, I had literal milliseconds to register this and come to the conclusion on what to do next.

Edit: Mind you, I also stopped at the warden when it came to fighting security. I wasn't going to go further no matter what, and I very frankly told Mia this when she asked me to join her. I had done enough and had made myself valid enough that the warden was liable to kill me through summary execution. If I didn't help Mia he'd kill me next. Near guaranteed. And if he didn't, the captain would have me executed upon cloning. And he'd have gone on with what he was doing. I could have beat the warden into crit (or kept tasing him, since I had stolen his taser), cuffed him with his own cuffs, and fled after medical treatment but Mia's guardian spirit had already teleported him into lava so there was nothing I could do at that point, he was gone and the antagonist was to blame.

[MortoSasye]

After reading your answers and taking into consideration the reason why you protected Mia and killed the captain anyways, this seems like metafriending for me which is a much worse thing than what you did of killing the captain for selling mats to buy exotic seeds in his own station after he accepted to fix his mistake.

While ic reasoning to help an antag is okay, the border was crossed when you decided to kill both the warden and the captain. The first murder was already bad, even when it was for a lynching. Now imagine helping not a random, but a traitor kill a warden instead of helping detain this enemy of NanoTrasen.

Forming a friendship with an antag is ok, but deciding to cover this antagonist status as antag and keep helping them is not.

I know you said that you didn't go up with them because you didn't want to kill more people since you were not an antag. But the fact that this decision happened after i pm'ed you and not before is always a reason to be skeptical.

As to him coming down to mine, he shouldn't have put himself in this position in the first place, or made so many enemies in doing so. He should have known better, acted better, and hopefully he learned his lesson the hard way.

Your reasoning doesn't sound right to me. What you're telling me here is that you killed him anyways for selling the mats, even when the attempt to fix this mistake was done, just because he did it previously which is poor reasoning. Captain lynching is usually okay like you said, but in this case, more than a lynch done by a wave of workers this was a carefully prepared murder done by a non antag miner with his antag partner who, i repeat once again, curiously needed the captain medal, making the captain his objective.

You helped an antagonist who you prefered over the captain get their objective, and that's a fact you can't ignore.

It started with a plan to kill him started by you. The captain accepts to go mine after you both ask him to get his own mats to sell, trying to make amends. You ''find out'' Mia is a traitor after she starts the attack on the captain by slipping them, but still prefer her over the captain who was trying to fix his mistake so you help her kill them.

And to put the cherry on top, you help once again by killing the warden with them. They go up, you stay on the mining base to ''not keep killing'' but this was after you were already contacted by an admin. You didn't even attempt to tell the crew they were an antag to prevent further murders, you went quiet and well, you got banned shortly after this.

Because of these reasons, i decided to not lift your ban (or well, note since it already expired) pending headmin review. I hope you understand why what you did is extremely suspicious, and if i had noticed the warden death (for which i blame myself for not noticing since i wasn't observing you) that would have even added a day more to your ban.

[NecromancerAnne]

This was something entirely contained within one round. I have barely interacted with Mia outside of this one round and a few previous (and notably short lived) rounds as shaft miner and didn't really interact with them in those either. And additionally don't even know what their ckey is. The most notable thing I can recall from past interactions with Mia is having to clean up a mess of an AI situation they created as a suicide attempt by antimov while I was CE, which didn't exactly endear myself to her in any way. Other than that, had nothing within round occured and Mia had simply attacked the captain I would not have taken her side and would have even defended the captain. 100%, bad captain or not. My actions were entirely based on in-round, in-character justification.

This seems like a pretty extreme accusation for something created via in-character interactions contained exclusively within one round. Metafriending would suggest I would have defended Mia without those previous interactions for outside of round reasons, which is wholly untrue and frankly I'm not sure what the basis of such an accusation is coming from.

But I suppose since the decision has been made and the ban has elapsed it is what it is.