[NecromancerAnne] Saltshaker65 - unfair ban

[Saltshaker65]

Byond account and character name:Saltshaker65 Rob Blesdoe
Banning admin: NecromancerAnne
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server
Ban reason and length: Trashed the bar and robbed the bartender in a 'sec party', when the bartender later expressed his displeasure, beat him into crit with his fellow sec officer and didn't tend to his wounds. This is blatantly horrid and escalation and abuse of power.
time ban was placed (including time zone): 7:22:36
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: I walked into bar after recently confiscating the bartenders firearm(for RP Reasons) because he had no permit for it. After walking in, he demanded the gun back, and when I told him no. He ran at me and started trying to disarm me. In my split second reaction, I used my bayonet's One shot then hit him twice while he was down because I had no cuffs on me. In hindsight, this was an overreaction. I didn't tend to his wounds because I handed him off to a fellow security officer named Big Tony because my commanding officer called me to brig to return an ID. I was intending to return the shotgun on return to see if he was ok. I did end up returning the shotgun,but I really wasnt given the opportunity to explain or redeem/justify myself. I then was Ahelped a few minutes after, she listed the reasons for my ban, and when I tried to explain to her that her reasons were either not correlated to me, misconstrued, or overall completely uninformed. I never got a response from her other than her saying I was in the wrong. Leaving me no opportunity to defend my case. She said I trashed the bar even though the supposed robbery happened as soon as I even entered the bar. I confiscated (in her words stole the gun) because of him saying earlier that he had no permit for the weapon. She says the bartender expressed displeasure but does not specify that he went to attack and disarm me which completely changes my response(which was a bit much) from being reasonable to reactionary. I also did not tend to wounds because my commanding officer, like i said many times in my many attempts for redemption, called me to brig,so I left him in the hands of another competent officer on scene. It was not an abuse of power but more of misunderstanding and rushing in with the banhammer. She said she would ban me at end of the round, but I ended up getting banned in the middle of an intense and important arrest/chase.
Why I should be unbanned:I think this ban was both poorly informed and rash on NecromancerAnne's part. She did not respond to any of my tickets with the intent to help but instead tried to just ban me outright without listening to my half of the story. While my initial reaction was an overreaction, It should not be a bannable offense because I made attempts to resolve it in character. This ban was unjust, unfair, and uninformed which shows the negligence and impulsive decision-making of NecromancerAnne.

[Yakumo_Chen]

Related, the barman is allowed to have a shotgun, it's part of his starting items.

[Saltshaker65]

I said for ROLEPLAYING reasons. He said he didnt have a permit for it in character but wanted to get one. Its the reason why I took it in the first place

[ATHATH]

I said for ROLEPLAYING reasons. He said he didnt have a permit for it in character but wanted to get one. Its the reason why I took it in the first place

Did you bring up his lack of a permit or did he?

[Saltshaker65]

He brought it up

[John_Gobbel]

Keep in mind that it's generally considered being a dick if you enforce on non-important laws and/or use them to bully the crew, especially if you are aware that they are, in fact, not breaking the law.
The correct thing to do here would have been to inform the bartender that he does, indeed, have a permit for his shotgun and to move on. Instead, it seems you decided to escalate and injure the bartender for "RP Reasons."

I can't seem to find the exact ruling on it, but from my knowledge I seem to remember it being common that RP does not excuse breaking the rules.

You have also neglected to put the ban type and length in your message. Is it a secban? Is it a full ban? How long is the ban, a day, week, month? I don't think it's appropriate to accuse NecromancerAnne of being unjust or unfair without having that information as well. (Also keep in mind that NecromancerAnne is the one who initially decides whether to deny or allow this appeal).

There is also a lot of information behind this post that will be better understood with the logs. You say that you stunned than beat him twice whereas the note says that you beat him into crit. You say that you tried to return the gun afterwards, but what prompted this and was it before or after you were bwoinked?

[Saltshaker65]

I didnt say I stunned him, I shot him with my mosin-nagant, then stabbed him twice cause its what i had on me. The ban was 1 day from game, 30 from Sec. I was bwoinked on my way to Brig where I was called to by someone, so I did return the gun after bwoink.

[Saltshaker65]

I'd like to have the option to discuss my ban with an admin to see if it can get appealed instead of ignored.

[NecromancerAnne]

Since it's been a bit since this ban was dropped I'll keep the response short and sweet. At the time of the altercation that caused the ban to occur, the bartender, Nikolai, had already contacted me about the situation and having been brigged over a misconception he had about owning his firearm. As the bartender, he obviously has a permit but had found himself abused by security over the situation. I chose to follow him and watch what was happening closely. Upon arrival back at his bar following his brigging (the warden let him out of the brig because he had been brigged without a timer by the other member of sec banned alongside you, Big Tony), he said that he wasn't serving you.

[2019-06-11 07:02:19.881] SAY: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) "Nothing for sec." (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:02:27.184] SAY: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) "You're being shitters." (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:02:40.662] SAY: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) "Arresting me for coming into my own bar." (Bar (133, 130, 2))

He was talking to Big Tony at the time. Who was showboating and claiming that it wasn't the bartender's bar, it was Centcomms.

Then you enter the picture.

[2019-06-11 07:03:44.495] SAY: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) "hey" (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:03:46.893] SAY: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) "remember me" (Bar (132, 128, 2))

You then assault him physically by throwing beer bottles at him.

[2019-06-11 07:03:50.830] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has thrown the glass of beer (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:03:50.845] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has threw and hit HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with the glass of beer (NEWHP: 100) (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:03:52.946] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has thrown the glass of beer (Bar (133, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:03:52.952] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has threw and hit HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with the glass of beer (NEWHP: 100) (Bar (133, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:03:54.330] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has thrown the broken glass of beer (Bar (133, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:03:54.332] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has threw and hit HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with the broken glass of beer (NEWHP: 96.3) (Bar (133, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:04.045] SAY: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) "give us beer" (Bar (137, 130, 2))

Nikolai responds in turn with a shove.

[2019-06-11 07:04:12.311] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shoved SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (137, 130, 2))

This is a nonharmful response to an actually harmful attack. In turn? You fire your gun at him, escalating this further.

[2019-06-11 07:04:14.569] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (138, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:23.510] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has fired at [floor] with 7.62 bullet from Bar (Bar (137, 134, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:23.601] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has shot HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with 7.62 bullet (NEWHP: 54.3) (Bar (137, 134, 2))

Note the times. You shot your disabler only once. You HAD a disabler. But when you missed, you chose to, instead, shoot him with a Mosin Nagant. A HIGHLY lethal weapon. This can crit in two shots. It put him to half health in one, slowing him. He had no weapons whatsoever when you entered the rear of the bar to continue the assault. He managed to disarm Big Tony of his disabler, so you proceeded to stab him with your bayonet.

[2019-06-11 07:04:32.718] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has attacked HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with combat knife (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 40.3) (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:32.913] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shoved Prototype Blue/(Big Tony) with loosening their grip on the disabler (NEWHP: 98) (Bar (134, 132, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:33.558] ATTACK: Prototype Blue/(Big Tony) has shot HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 40.3) (Bar (134, 134, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:33.993] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shoved Prototype Blue/(Big Tony) with onto the wooden table (table) (NEWHP: 98) (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:37.311] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (134, 134, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:38.148] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:38.149] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shot SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:38.560] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:38.561] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shot SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:39.086] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:39.087] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shot SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:39.553] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at [bacon burger] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (134, 133, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:41.113] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Bar (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:41.345] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has attacked HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with combat knife (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 12.3) (Bar (133, 131, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:41.649] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) with the disabler beam from Bar (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:41.651] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shot SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:42.157] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has fired at SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) with the disabler beam from Bar (NEWHP: 99) (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:42.158] ATTACK: HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) has shot barasor/(Medical Android-962) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:42.301] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has attacked HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with combat knife (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -1.7) (Bar (133, 130, 2))

Once in crit, you partner then smacks him with a harm baton

[2019-06-11 07:04:48.415] ATTACK: Prototype Blue/(Big Tony) has attacked HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with stun baton (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -11.7) (Bar (134, 130, 2))

You then tell Big Tony

[2019-06-11 07:04:51.613] SAY: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) "tony" (Bar (133, 127, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:53.804] SAY: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) "take care of it" (Bar (133, 127, 2))

He proceeds to shove Nikolai into disposals as he is dying.

[2019-06-11 07:04:52.442] ATTACK: Prototype Blue/(Big Tony) has grabbed HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) passive grab (NEWHP: -12.7) (Bar (134, 130, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:04:56.488] ATTACK: Prototype Blue/(Big Tony) has stuffed HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) into the disposal unit (NEWHP: -14.7) (Bar (135, 130, 2))

Later on, Nikolai dies from bleeding out. He isn't retrieved until he is already close to death in disposals and doesn't make it to medical in time.

[2019-06-11 07:06:37.651] ATTACK: Kendrickorium/(Sunshine Day) has grabbed HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) passive grab (NEWHP: -87.8) (Waste Disposal (68, 171, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:06:44.952] ATTACK: Kendrickorium/(Sunshine Day) has grabbed HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -98.4) (Port Bow Maintenance (70, 168, 2))
[2019-06-11 07:11:08.863] ATTACK: Kendrickorium/(Sunshine Day) has shaken HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) (NEWHP: 100) (Cloning Lab (92, 91, 2))

Note the times. He's cloned and out of the round for a good 5 minutes. You nor Big Tony had no involvement in his medical treatment. If anything, you only made it more difficult and actually got him killed. You were not acting as security in this situation, you were simply abusing and assaulting someone, so I'm not giving you the benefit of standard escalation protections sec have for situations that involve security taking people out of the round. I'm denying this appeal. You're security officers keeping the peace, not gangsters. A months break from the role should teach you this.

A headmin can rule otherwise but I don't have much more to say on this, the logs kind of speak for themselves.

[NecromancerAnne]

Also you had a disabler and any equipment you lacked is entirely on you. You are responsible to remain equipped for the situation at hand.

Also, additional log in case anyone was wondering if the bartender was overreacting about the situation, you had flashed and stripped the bartender of his gun and people around you at the time started to beat on him. I'm unsure which are security and which are not in the logs but given disablers are being fired at him I'm assuming it's your fellow officers. I'd have bwoinked them too if I was aware of this at the time. Pity we can't go back in time.

[2019-06-11 06:51:48.387] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has fired at HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with the beanbag slug from Bar (NEWHP: 73) (Bar (131, 125, 2))
[2019-06-11 06:51:48.460] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has shot HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with the beanbag slug (NEWHP: 69.5) (Bar (131, 125, 2))

This is you shooting the bartender with his own gun, likely as he is already beaten and had been cuffed. He had not used his gun once.

[2019-06-11 06:53:17.523] [2019-06-11 06:52:40.182] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has attacked HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) with stun baton (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Central Primary Hallway (125, 129, 2))
[2019-06-11 06:52:44.286] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has grabbed HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) passive grab (NEWHP: 62.5) (Central Primary Hallway (127, 128, 2))
[2019-06-11 06:52:49.852] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has stunned HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Bar (130, 124, 2))
ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has attempted to strangle HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) kill grab (NEWHP: 62.5) (Bar (131, 124, 2))
[2019-06-11 06:53:20.634] ATTACK: SaltShaker65/(Rob Blesdoe) has strangled HelAngel/(Nikolai Petrovich) kill grab (NEWHP: 62.5) (Bar (131, 124, 2))

This is you stunning and choking him out.

[Hulkamania]

To add: Don't go all out lethal on a guy when you're a security officer, especially for something as trivial as "roleplaying reasons." Unless you are 100% certain that the other person would be okay with you harming them for your roleplay, it's best not to do it. Security is expected to handle something non-lethally whenever possible and this is a clear violation of that.

Locking this thread now.