[cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending department

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deputi
 
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Byond Username: Deputi

[cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending department

Postby deputi » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:52 pm #54629

Byond account and character name: Deputi - Bill DeFoe
Banning admin: Cedarbridge
Ban type: Dayban
Ban reason and length: Non-antag murder. Killed the clown for attempting to break into Engineering. Doesn't seem to understand why this is wrong.
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): Dec. 31, 2014 8:30AM EST

Your side of the story: I signed up as CE during a lowpop round and go to my office to gear up. The clown comes to Engineering to card the AI and asks to be let in. I don't let him in and he starts beating on the window with a crowbar. I go stun him with my baton to get him to stop but he gets back up and hits me in the head with his crowbar. I stun him again and start beating him with his own crowbar. He cries for me to stop so I stop and throw him down the hallway. I go back into my office but the clown comes back with a wrench and starts hitting the window again. I approach him with my baton but he runs and throws his wrench at me so I grab his wrench and throw it back. After a minute or two, the clown comes back again with a box of mouse traps and starts laying them in from of Engineering. Then, he resumes hitting the window with his wrench. I go out to stun him again but he starts throwing mousetraps at me from a distance. I manage to stun him and start beating him again until he asks me to stop so I go back my office hoping he finally got the message to leave. The clown resumes setting up mouse traps outside Engineering and starts hitting the window again while dropping his PDA in an attempt to slip me so I stun him and beat him with his wrench till he asks me to stop. He gets up and starts walking away but stops to laugh at me so I threw his wrench at him and went back to my office. Apparently, throwing his wrench at him was enough to put him into crit. I did not know I put him into crit until the admin asked me why I killed him. This was because I threw the wrench at him when he was at the edge of my screen and went back into my office immediately afterwards.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The clown assaulted me and attempted to break into a restricted area multiple times despite my efforts to deter him. Every time the clown asked me to stop beating him, I listened and stopped. I let the clown leave with his life 3 times and there probably would have been a fourth time if I hadn't accidentally put him into crit. I don't understand what I did wrong because I was acting in self-defense and defense of my department as the department head. I understand that this is just a dayban but I do not think it is fair that my player notes should be tainted by an unjust ban.

Logs: http://pastebin.com/g1w3npxk



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cedarbridge
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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:44 am #54739

deputi wrote:Byond account and character name: Deputi - Bill DeFoe
Banning admin: Cedarbridge
Ban type: Dayban
Ban reason and length: Non-antag murder. Killed the clown for attempting to break into Engineering. Doesn't seem to understand why this is wrong.
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): Dec. 31, 2014 8:30AM EST

Your side of the story: I signed up as CE during a lowpop round and go to my office to gear up. The clown comes to Engineering to card the AI and asks to be let in. I don't let him in and he starts beating on the window with a crowbar. I go stun him with my baton to get him to stop but he gets back up and hits me in the head with his crowbar. I stun him again and start beating him with his own crowbar. He cries for me to stop so I stop and throw him down the hallway. I go back into my office but the clown comes back with a wrench and starts hitting the window again. I approach him with my baton but he runs and throws his wrench at me so I grab his wrench and throw it back. After a minute or two, the clown comes back again with a box of mouse traps and starts laying them in from of Engineering. Then, he resumes hitting the window with his wrench. I go out to stun him again but he starts throwing mousetraps at me from a distance. I manage to stun him and start beating him again until he asks me to stop so I go back my office hoping he finally got the message to leave. The clown resumes setting up mouse traps outside Engineering and starts hitting the window again while dropping his PDA in an attempt to slip me so I stun him and beat him with his wrench till he asks me to stop. He gets up and starts walking away but stops to laugh at me so I threw his wrench at him and went back to my office. Apparently, throwing his wrench at him was enough to put him into crit. I did not know I put him into crit until the admin asked me why I killed him. This was because I threw the wrench at him when he was at the edge of my screen and went back into my office immediately afterwards.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The clown assaulted me and attempted to break into a restricted area multiple times despite my efforts to deter him. Every time the clown asked me to stop beating him, I listened and stopped. I let the clown leave with his life 3 times and there probably would have been a fourth time if I hadn't accidentally put him into crit. I don't understand what I did wrong because I was acting in self-defense and defense of my department as the department head. I understand that this is just a dayban but I do not think it is fair that my player notes should be tainted by an unjust ban.

Logs: http://pastebin.com/g1w3npxk


We already talked about this in adminPMs. You beat the clown to death for throwing mousetraps at you and hitting you with a clown stamp. Your stated reason for doing so "defending your department" amounted to harmbatoning a clown for 1) hitting a window a couple times with a wrench 2)hitting you with his clown stamp 3) setting up and throwing mousetraps at you. No part of this is appropriate escalation. Also, none of it is "defense" when the clown died next to the O2 locker outside of atmos. The clown died due to your actions. There's no requirement for you to stick around and watch them choke through crit.

All of this could have been avoided by calling security (even in low-pop, there was at least one officer on station) and having the clown arrested. There was no immediate threat to anyone except the sanctity of your department and we don't allow other departments to kill invaders when non-lethal means exist to remove those invaders.

Unless a headmin wants to chime in on this one, I'm denying this appeal. A murder occurred and a I consider just applying the single day ban to be lenient in this case.

deputi
 
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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby deputi » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:10 pm #54829

First of all, if you actually read the logs or my appeal you'd know that the clown hit me in the head with a crowbar not his stamp. Second, the only security on the station was the HoS and if you read the logs you'd know that the AI announced on radio that the clown was fucking around at engineering but no one came. Third, I used non-lethal means to get him to fuck off THREE times. What this means is that I gave him a beating and made him leave three times but he just kept coming back. I guess I should have known the clown was planning to stop fucking around the tenth time I'd have to make him leave? Don't make it seem like I immediately beat him to death because he hit the window a "couple times"(35 times according to logs). He assaulted me and just kept coming back to griff my department. I don't know what your definition of "appropriate escalation" is but in my book if someone hits me with a crowbar and keeps coming back to fuck with my department after a stern non-lethal beating three times, it's clear they're not able to take no for an answer at this point. You'd think at the second or third time he was allowed to leave something would click in the clown's head and he'd think, "Gee, I sure pissed off that CE by hitting him with a crowbar and fucking with his department but at least he let me leave with my life. Maybe I shouldn't come back and do the exact same shit because the CE might not be so nice to me the second or third time around." I know for a fact that if this were the Brig or Captain's office he was trying to break into and assault their heads he'd be executed on the spot for his first attempt. Also, I don't even know where you got the information that I watched the clown gasp to death. I said I threw his wrench back at him when he was at the end of my screen and then I went back down into my office. I didn't know throwing the wrench put him into crit because I'm pretty sure there's a slight delay when you collapse into crit and by that time he was off my screen. If he had adminhelped while in crit I wouldn't have hesitated to save the clown if I knew I fucked up. Next time, I'll just make sure to avoid ban-baiting clowns that have a license to griff.

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Vekter
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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby Vekter » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:28 pm #54851

I was already checking the logs this morning, so I took the liberty of pulling them for that incident. It looks like the clown did indeed smack you with the crowbar all of once, possibly a misclick, to be honest.

If I can ever find the damn cleanup tool, I'll post the logs here, but here's the snippet where he smacked you.

[08:19:55]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) stunned Floppy(crunchybullettin) with classic baton
[08:20:06]ATTACK: Floppy(crunchybullettin) attacked Bill DeFoe(deputi) with pocket crowbar(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[08:20:07]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) stunned Floppy(crunchybullettin) with classic baton
[08:20:09]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) attacked Floppy(crunchybullettin) with pocket crowbar(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[08:20:10]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) attacked Floppy(crunchybullettin) with pocket crowbar(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[08:20:11]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) attacked Floppy(crunchybullettin) with pocket crowbar(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[08:20:12]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) attacked Floppy(crunchybullettin) with pocket crowbar(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[08:20:13]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) attacked Floppy(crunchybullettin) with pocket crowbar(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)
[08:20:14]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) stunned Floppy(crunchybullettin) with classic baton
[08:20:17]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) grabbed Floppy(crunchybullettin) passively
[08:21:00]ATTACK: Bill DeFoe(deputi) hit Floppy(crunchybullettin) with The wrench
PM: REDACTED/(REDACTED)->Kevinz000/(REDACTED): Because I had maximum yield explosives and a job to do


Spoiler:
The space bear stares alertly at the giant spider.

Image

Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you

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cedarbridge
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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:01 pm #54870

deputi wrote:First of all, if you actually read the logs or my appeal you'd know that the clown hit me in the head with a crowbar not his stamp.

I did read the logs even before I PM'd you the first time. You were struck by a crowbar once. You responded by beating the shit out of the clown. Given that his intent was set to disarm gives me the impression that he disarmed that crowbar off you when you hit him with it the first time and it was in his active hand when he spammed another disarm attempt.

deputi wrote:Second, the only security on the station was the HoS and if you read the logs you'd know that the AI announced on radio that the clown was fucking around at engineering but no one came.

You seem to forget that we had this conversation while the round was going. I saw what the AI said because I was there. That's also how I know there was active security. The AI making an announcement about a clown in engineering isn't immediately something sec runs to. People break into engineering all the time, usually for gloves. Had you made a statement that your department was under real threat (a threat you haven't demonstrated outside of "he hit my window with a wrench) security would be more inclined to respond than "oh shit guys the clown is at a department."

deputi wrote:"Gee, I sure pissed off that CE by hitting him with a crowbar and fucking with his department but at least he let me leave with my life."

This is why we're having this conversation in the first place. He hit you with a crowbar once. You responded by beating the shit out of him with it. Nobody's interactions with a head of staff should be "oh boy I'm glad he's not a psycho." Its not banbaiting when you're already going into a non-lethal situation with the assumption "If they make me mad enough I can kill them." That's wrong behavior and that's why you copped a day ban for murder.

I'm also interested to see a window that can remain undamaged after being struck 30+ times by a wrench, because when I looked at the scene, there were no damaged windows whatsoever.

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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby deputi » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:28 pm #54923

I did read the logs even before I PM'd you the first time. You were struck by a crowbar once. You responded by beating the shit out of the clown. Given that his intent was set to disarm gives me the impression that he disarmed that crowbar off you when you hit him with it the first time and it was in his active hand when he spammed another disarm attempt.

Image
You're under the wrong impression.
You seem to forget that we had this conversation while the round was going. I saw what the AI said because I was there. That's also how I know there was active security. The AI making an announcement about a clown in engineering isn't immediately something sec runs to. People break into engineering all the time, usually for gloves. Had you made a statement that your department was under real threat (a threat you haven't demonstrated outside of "he hit my window with a wrench) security would be more inclined to respond than "oh shit guys the clown is at a department."

I thought I could deal with the situation myself. All the clown had to do was stop coming back to hit the window when I made him leave multiple times. It was that simple.

This is why we're having this conversation in the first place. He hit you with a crowbar once. You responded by beating the shit out of him with it. Nobody's interactions with a head of staff should be "oh boy I'm glad he's not a psycho." Its not banbaiting when you're already going into a non-lethal situation with the assumption "If they make me mad enough I can kill them." That's wrong behavior and that's why you copped a day ban for murder.

I dealt with the first encounter with the clown non-lethally. He comes back to hitting the window. I deal with him again non-lethally. He comes back to hitting the window. I deal with him a third time non-lethally. He comes back again to hitting the window. At this point, the clown has accumulated enough damage from returning repeatedly that when I throw his wrench back at him he goes into crit. I went into the situation with the assumption that the clown would show a hint of self-preservation and stop attempting to break into Engineering because he was going to get beat up every time he came back and tried to break the window. If by "interactions" with a head of staff you mean assaulting them and attempting to break into their department multiple times for no reason then they should be glad the head of staff is not a psycho.

I'm also interested to see a window that can remain undamaged after being struck 30+ times by a wrench, because when I looked at the scene, there were no damaged windows whatsoever.

I repaired the window.

PostThis post was deleted by peoplearestrange on Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:04 pm.
Reason: Not Involved

PostThis post was deleted by peoplearestrange on Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:04 pm.
Reason: Not Involved

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Antonkr
 
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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby Antonkr » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:20 pm #54938

Yeah, I really don't think that by then escalation into murder is inappropriate. Going a bit far? Perhaps, but nothing I would ban for. As far as I know cedar is still a trialmin, thus I am quite inclined to be lifting this ban unless he has anything to add. A dickhead breaking into a department multitude of times and with security being very stretched and almost non-existent in my eyes is enough of a reason for this to end up happening. If the clown decided to be a dick multiple times, he also should be fine with dealing with said consequences.

but yeah, unless there is anything anyone would like to add I don't see a reason for this to stay.
No longer an admin by own free will. Feel free to add me on steam.

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cedarbridge
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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:12 am #54949

Antonkr wrote:Yeah, I really don't think that by then escalation into murder is inappropriate. Going a bit far? Perhaps, but nothing I would ban for. As far as I know cedar is still a trialmin, thus I am quite inclined to be lifting this ban unless he has anything to add. A dickhead breaking into a department multitude of times and with security being very stretched and almost non-existent in my eyes is enough of a reason for this to end up happening. If the clown decided to be a dick multiple times, he also should be fine with dealing with said consequences.

but yeah, unless there is anything anyone would like to add I don't see a reason for this to stay.

Like I said, I'm willing to differ on this case but still do not find "I already beat him almost to death before so now I get to do it for real" as a good standard for good play. Lynching a clown for hitting a window and hitting somebody once (when the logs posted show the CE attacked him long before the CE was ever touched by the single crowbar strike) is pretty awful. Frankly, I was disinclined to ban him for it in the first place, but being entirely unrepentant for what I still see as awful behavior motivated me to move it from a warning to a ban. Only now in the ban appeal do we see anything akin to remorse for removing somebody from a round over a petty squabble.

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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby Antonkr » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:30 am #54953

Honestly, I see where you are coming from, but from personal experience I find it that the issue at hand (forgetting all OOC outcomes) really caused more grief for the CE who had to deal with the guy breaking into the place multiple times, and pretty much refusing to stop. We had a bit of a talk on adminbus, and I feel like the clown was being shit enough and enough of a nuisance for the CE to be justified in the murder. Was it the best option in this situation? Mmmm, not really no. While he did have some alternatives which imo would be better, I don't see how dealing with someone who is outright griefing, IC should be bannable.

In any case, Deputi's ban was lifted, and the note retracted. I don't really see the argument of remorse as being of any use as I don't see him as needing to be remorseful for anything really.
No longer an admin by own free will. Feel free to add me on steam.

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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby deputi » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:44 am #54972

Thank you

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Re: [cedarbridge] Deputi - Daybanned for defending departmen

Postby Ahammer18 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:54 am #55018

Alright, good game guys. This ones resolved.
I'm a boy.
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