[NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

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Isy232
 
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[NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby Isy232 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:53 pm #535313

BYOND account: <BYOND account> Isy232
Character name: <Character name at time of ban> Hydrogen III
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Ban type: <Server/Role[s]/OOC/etc> ^
Ban length: <Permanent, 5 days, etc> ^
Ban reason: <Copy this from the server. If this is a server ban, attempt to connect. If it is not a server ban, view your notes with "View Admin Remarks" button under OOC tab in-game. An image is suitable, but do **not** paraphrase or otherwise modify the reason.> ^
Time ban was placed: <Try to get this from the server when you get the ban reason. If it was a note, the note has a timestamp. If it was a server ban, it will also have a timestamp. Both of these times are in UTC.> ^
Server you were playing on when banned: <Server name, eg, Bagil/Sybil/Terry/Event Hall> ^
Round ID in which ban was placed: <Round ID, should be present in ban reason from server. Can be excluded if it cannot be found. Example: 101235> ^


Your side of the story: Joined 20 minutes into the round as a scientist, somewhere along that saw a wizard, they were being friendly so no conflict there. Went back to check the science department, all jobs were being done or had been done and after a while of boringly wandering the station looking for some action or roleplay or any sort of interesting situation I found none except for some pizza party in which half the people looked AFK.

So I decided to create some conflict, I grabbed a portal gun and started warping into secure areas. Nobody cared at all so I decided to try the armory, I was thinking of just teleporting in, getting caught by armsky and then demanding a lawyer or something. Provide some sort of roleplay conflict in which I would be the only person who would be impacted negatively.

IC'ly I was going to justify it as the sort of care-free scientist stereotype taking there new toy for a joyride, a little careless of the consequences perhaps.


Why you think you should be unbanned: Necro banned me based on the bit in rule 8 saying "you need to be playing a believable (character, I assume) and you want to have a job at the end of the day".

Rule 8 does not say this and I doubt it was written with the intention to ban people for actions such as the one I took.

Rule 8 Exatly states: "Real life realism is not required, and you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.) There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it."

Most important I think is the fact that it says probably instead of definitely. Probably meaning almost certainly meaning almost always. So I am assuming this means 90% of your actions should be done with regard to your position as a nanotrasen employee.

So in this case, the single action I took without regard for my job was entering the armory with a teleporter. I didn't steal anything, I didn't resist a security person trying to arrest me, I didn't break anything. I only entered the room. This was done with the intent to create minor conflict in which I would then demand a lawyer or try to explain myself or beg the security person to have mercy, ect. All actions that would be done with regard to my position as a nanotrasen employee.


I would also like to point out that rule 8 and 10 contradict each other in this situation. "If you aren’t an antagonist and yet you really want to play out a hostage situation, or turn someone into a living cake-cat abomination, or just dick around a little, confirm with the involved and affected players ICly first. If everyone agrees to being subjected to whatever terrible atrocities you have in store, then you’re good to go."
If you roleplay taking someone else hostage, its obvious you are unlikely to keep your job, yet if people consent its allowed.

In my situation I was the only person capable of being negatively affected by my action, and of course I had my own consent.

I did not negatively affect any member of security as I did not steal anything or damage anything and I do not think getting security to do their job is negatively affecting anyone. The same way as if you take someone hostage security would have to respond or if someone is harmed in that situation medical would treat them.



To add another bit of precedence for my actions, yesterday I was playing a scientist and had done toxins and made 6 large bombs. I ahelped if I could pretend to threaten the station with them and was told it would be okay to do so. I set off the bombs on the toxins test site while pretending I was blowing up the station and making them play a game of hide and seek with me.
Another situation in which I could have been fired for, but was given the go ahead anyways and where I was the only one negatively impacted.
What happened after this incident was the I got shot, cloned, interrogated and put on trial where I then convinced the head of security I should be set free.



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NecromancerAnne
 
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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:41 pm #535328

I'll be honest right now, you can't pull rule 10 out your arse when you're the only person involved and nobody else is even remotely going to have an opportunity to either tell you no or add to the situation. Rule 10 is not the thumbs up to just do whatever the fuck you want. It's a hint that things can be permissive if there is sufficient player acceptance for what is occurring, and usually that's with contacting the people involved to ensure they are okay with all that is happening from our end. You literally just, on your own initiative, chose to enter the armory with no warning to anyone and also no witness to the crime.

Two, arguing semantics in order to circumvent the spirit of our rules is a joke when you are picking and choosing which words matter of the rule. Breaking and entering into the armory on a whim is not roleplaying. You had no excuse to do it other than you could and you were bored, by your own admission when I asked you why you did it. Rule 1 of our main rules still apples. You can't just force situations to occur like that with no organic buildup. Given the armory is one of the most contentious areas in the station to the point that anyone who enters it is not only able to be killed but permanently valid from there on out, with the in-character justification that you just attempted to steal firearms from the police force, you shouldn't have to ever set foot in there unless you have nefarious purposes or you are in an extremely desperate position.

Since neither of these have occurred, you can quite frankly get bent. We have two other servers in which you can tide into the armory rather happily with no consequence other than that you'll die the moment anyone works out it was you, and in those circumstances if you really DID try and defend yourself for breaking into the armory using any show of lethal force and someone ended up getting killed for it, I'll happily send you packing for self-antagging.

You cannot roleplay into antag or antag behaviour, despite how you think you can abuse rule 10 to do so. That's not how that rule works. You're still subject to the main Rule 1. Don't be a dick. At the very least you can wait until you're an antag.

Isy232
 
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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby Isy232 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:12 pm #535347

NecromancerAnne wrote:I'll be honest right now, you can't pull rule 10 out your arse when you're the only person involved and nobody else is even remotely going to have an opportunity to either tell you no or add to the situation. Rule 10 is not the thumbs up to just do whatever the fuck you want. It's a hint that things can be permissive if there is sufficient player acceptance for what is occurring, and usually that's with contacting the people involved to ensure they are okay with all that is happening from our end. You literally just, on your own initiative, chose to enter the armory with no warning to anyone and also no witness to the crime.


No. Firstly, you saying that I'm the only person involved and that nobody is going to have an opportunity to add to the situation is completely false. The only way that would have been possible is if nobody responded to beepsky's cries over security comms or decided to look into the armory from the window in the brig and decide to deal with the situation.

My whole goal was to get caught doing something bad and then to face the punishment for that. This definitely gives security players an opportunity to add to the situation. You never gave this a chance to occur because the sending you messaged me about it I teleported out to avoid making things worse and then you banned me. I bet that if you let me get myself arrested and then go through whatever came of it the security or lawyers dealing with the resulting situation would have had a positive or neutral opinion of the situation.

The idea was for:
1: Seccie see's me, if no seccie, let beepsky arrest me.
2: Get arrested, explain my dicking around with teleporter, perhaps word it so I sound suspicious
3: Demand lawyer or beg security to have mercy or try to sneak out of the brig and play a game of hide and seek, ect.

NecromancerAnne wrote:Two, arguing semantics in order to circumvent the spirit of our rules is a joke when you are picking and choosing which words matter of the rule. Breaking and entering into the armory on a whim is not roleplaying. You had no excuse to do it other than you could and you were bored, by your own admission when I asked you why you did it. Rule 1 of our main rules still apples. You can't just force situations to occur like that with no organic buildup. Given the armory is one of the most contentious areas in the station to the point that anyone who enters it is not only able to be killed but permanently valid from there on out, with the in-character justification that you just attempted to steal firearms from the police force, you shouldn't have to ever set foot in there unless you have nefarious purposes or you are in an extremely desperate position.


No, I am not arguing purely semantics. From my reading of rule 10, I assumed it meant that I could do some stuff that would get me fired or in other sorts of bad situations to create an interesting situation. This conflicts with the meaning of rule 8 being that you are not allowed to do anything that could get you fired from your job. Hence I took that meaning of rule 8.

No, I did not break into the armory on a whim, I was wandering the station for about 10 minutes looking for some interesting roleplay situation to join in on or just anything to do. I crossed off the idea of doing something with bombs, I did that yesterday. There were chemists, didn't want to take their jobs, someone was already doing something with nanites and I never got the chance to add some shitty line to it to make them all praise space hitler. R&D has plenty of points and mining did their job, no illegal tech so I gotta make it work with the mostly mundane stuff. I decided on messing around with a portal gun.

No, I don't get what you mean by organic buildup here, accidentally ending up in a very important room in the station is the buildup in my opinion.

I get that I could have been shot or imprisoned or such for my actions, that was my goal, to get into a bad situation and then deal with the consequences IC'ly. Even if I would have just been shot, I would have been a little pissed but whatever, its my own fault for purposely getting myself into this position.

NecromancerAnne wrote:Since neither of these have occurred, you can quite frankly get bent. We have two other servers in which you can tide into the armory rather happily with no consequence other than that you'll die the moment anyone works out it was you, and in those circumstances if you really DID try and defend yourself for breaking into the armory using any show of lethal force and someone ended up getting killed for it, I'll happily send you packing for self-antagging.


Since you like making useless insults in discussions I shall do so as well. Your the fucking one who made this personal.

Shut the fuck up, there is plenty of precedent for my actions. I read the fucking rules and am trying to follow how I interpreted what I read. Just because my interpretation does not align perfectly with yours you feel it is just to ban me for a whole fucking day. Now your on the defensive because your an admin and if anyone proves you wrong you feel it will damage your perfect reputation. Fuck off or at least admit this case is ambiguous enough so that I wont fuck with the armory again but that a dayban for this was massively excessive and was not necessary at all.

NecromancerAnne wrote:You cannot roleplay into antag or antag behaviour, despite how you think you can abuse rule 10 to do so. That's not how that rule works. You're still subject to the main Rule 1. Don't be a dick. At the very least you can wait until you're an antag.


Rule 10 is all about roleplaying into semi-antag behaviour to create interesting roleplay conflict. That's what I was trying to do. One of the things rule 10 specifically mentions is taking someone hostage, which in a roleplay setting is definately antagonist behaviour. I'd think the difference is that a non-antagonist would need the hostages consent. In my case, no matter how you looked at it, I was the one being fucked over and I had my own consent. I'm pretty damn sure that's how that rule is supposed to work and if it isn't its ambiguous enough I should have been let off with a warning to not do that again and you telling me where I went wrong in this.

No, Of all things, I NEVER violated rule 1. I was not a dick in any way what so ever unless you consider getting security to do their job being a dick. I have already given precedent for why I think that this is not negatively impacting security.





Overall, your arguments make me doubt you even read half of my original post.

NecromancerAnne wrote:Breaking and entering into the armory on a whim

Isy232 wrote:after a while of boringly wandering the station looking for some action or roleplay or any sort of interesting situation I found none


NecromancerAnne wrote:Two, arguing semantics in order to circumvent the spirit of our rules is a joke

Isy232 wrote:I would also like to point out that rule 8 and 10 contradict each other in this situation



One other thing to add:
NecromancerAnne wrote:You had no excuse to do it other than you could and you were bored, by your own admission when I asked you why you did it.

I find this hilarious, you asked me why I did it, I responded quickly with a half thought of answer, I was bored because of the lack of conflict. You then sent me a paragraph response about it, I then responded asking you if I could explain why I thought it was okay to do what I did. You then don't respond for 10 seconds and then I am banned.

Isy232
 
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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby Isy232 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:45 pm #535350

For various reasons in: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25255

I would like to request another staff member adds their thoughts as I doubt Necro's impartiality.

Nobody's perfect but when you are making threats and insults its hard to believe you will be fair in your judgement.

PostThis post was deleted by peoplearestrange on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:10 pm.
Reason: Peanuts

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:38 pm.
Reason: Requested delete

Isy232
 
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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby Isy232 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:59 pm #535383

If I would have tided I would have taken something from the armory and then immediately left.

I read the roleplay rules and its obvious that the actions tiding normally consists of are against multiple rules.

I guess I cant conclusively prove my intent wasn't to tide because the admin intervened before I could have proven my intent through my actions.


And yes, if the main judge over my case insults me, bringing into question their impartiality, I tell them to fuck off and that I want a new judge.
Last edited by peoplearestrange on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed now deleted quote, but kept text due to relevance to appeal

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NecromancerAnne
 
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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 am #535496

Isy232 wrote:
No. Firstly, you saying that I'm the only person involved and that nobody is going to have an opportunity to add to the situation is completely false. The only way that would have been possible is if nobody responded to beepsky's cries over security comms or decided to look into the armory from the window in the brig and decide to deal with the situation.

My whole goal was to get caught doing something bad and then to face the punishment for that. This definitely gives security players an opportunity to add to the situation. You never gave this a chance to occur because the sending you messaged me about it I teleported out to avoid making things worse and then you banned me. I bet that if you let me get myself arrested and then go through whatever came of it the security or lawyers dealing with the resulting situation would have had a positive or neutral opinion of the situation.

The idea was for:
1: Seccie see's me, if no seccie, let beepsky arrest me.
2: Get arrested, explain my dicking around with teleporter, perhaps word it so I sound suspicious
3: Demand lawyer or beg security to have mercy or try to sneak out of the brig and play a game of hide and seek, ect.


Really not sure what I could explain to you how this is not a good idea. As far as I can tell, you were just tiding.

No, I am not arguing purely semantics. From my reading of rule 10, I assumed it meant that I could do some stuff that would get me fired or in other sorts of bad situations to create an interesting situation. This conflicts with the meaning of rule 8 being that you are not allowed to do anything that could get you fired from your job. Hence I took that meaning of rule 8.


The meaning of rule 8 is that you usually don't do spontaneously random tiding or actively illegal or aggressive behavior for no reason. It's why rule 10 exists to be more permissive of extraordinary circumstances, because extraordinary circumstances arise and they can be fun and engaging if they come about from happenstance and not something with an itchy trigger finger and the attention span of a toddler looking to start shit because they want attention. There is a very important rule of thumb with roleplaying in a multiplayer environment, and it's usually that you shouldn't seek to steal the spotlight or make everything all about you by your own actions or trying to force others into a situation deliberately. Trying to be the center of attention every round and forcing chaos when calm is the opposite of spontaneity. It's goading for a reaction, and we don't often take kindly to that kind of thing if done excessively.

You wouldn't know it since you were banned before you got to see it, but this same round, off the backs of the roles which we give permission to cause this chaos with, became extremely active when antagonists began acting and tensions were high. As a matter of course, the traitor clown single-handedly made for more engaging roleplay and interactions from failing and being captured than you did trying. Because he got the thumbs up to direct the round, be the spotlight, and people engaged with him appropriately, and his actions were permissive of the organic and creative roleplay that resulted. You have had none of these allowances and none of the engagement. Quite literally, just wait till you're an antagonist to do things like this. It's not that hard.

No, I did not break into the armory on a whim, I was wandering the station for about 10 minutes looking for some interesting roleplay situation to join in on or just anything to do. I crossed off the idea of doing something with bombs, I did that yesterday. There were chemists, didn't want to take their jobs, someone was already doing something with nanites and I never got the chance to add some shitty line to it to make them all praise space hitler. R&D has plenty of points and mining did their job, no illegal tech so I gotta make it work with the mostly mundane stuff. I decided on messing around with a portal gun.

No, I don't get what you mean by organic buildup here, accidentally ending up in a very important room in the station is the buildup in my opinion.


So firstly, by bombs I hope you mean Toxins. And by roleplay based things on bombs, I hope you don't mean false flag bomb threats. Because that's a damn big red flag that you have no concept of these roleplay rules whatsoever, given you clearly missed the very first one. They are extras, they do not replace our standard rules. And Rule 1 is very much going to put a stop to any unnecessary self-antagging from anyone, even with our RP Rule 10. Rule 10 is a good faith rule you don't get to invoke as you please, it's the one that gives us leeway as administrators to say everything is okay. You are not at all acting in good faith. Rule 8 is a reasonable request to keep ridiculousness to acceptable, harmless levels and that you can break very minor in-character laws without administrative backlash (we aren't going to ban you for taking a multitool out of science as a visiting geneticist or some shit, basically, or taking over a job where there isn't already staff, which usually requires stealing the equipment necessary to do that job). It is not allowance for you to do whatever comes to mind because you want to be the sole exception for the round to the exclusion of everyone else having their own agency to dictate roleplay.

Why you feel like your actions don't fall within the '90%' you yourself claim rule 8 stops is why I think you act in bad faith and want nothing more than an excuse to twist your actions in a way to give you permission to behave and act as you please. You can't provide a metric and then at the same time you don't fall into that metric, because that's just using your own fabricated data to validate your point. You fabricated your own justification by setting your own goal posts. We can't measure how often you do your job. We can measure how often you don't and what you're doing instead. You even admitted yourself you joined the round and immediately set about not doing your job despite it only being 20 minutes in. There are still a few things in science you could be doing, and there are still things you could do as a scientist as a result of the research you have. Nanites, BEPIS stuff, toxins, messing with machinery. All kinds of stuff. We still want you playing the game. The MRP label is simply a guide for behaviour and action, not the sole attraction.

Additionally, what is this 'accidentally' bit. You can't just make shit up to retroactively excuse a deliberate teleportation into the armory. Do you actually seriously want to argue you were acting as though you didn't know you'd end up in the armory? There are several teleportation mechanics in the game that produce random results that could be excused as 'accidental'. The portal gun, being a directed two-point teleportation device, is anything but that. Besides the launchpads, it is the most precise and expedient teleportation device in the game.

This is done I'm denying the appeal.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby Isy232 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:51 pm #535556

I'm not going to quote anything to avoid making this longer than it needed to be, my intention was never, ever, to tide or to break the rules. It was always just to create an engaging roleplay situation to liven up a round which seemed extremely dull to me.


Okay, so overall, I can see that our interpretations of the rules that we both read are different. I thought that if I were to ahelp asking to do this I may have just been laughed at for asking such a stupid question because the answer would have obviously been yes. I had precedence for thinking the way I did too.

So fine, I misunderstood the rules. I hope you now understand why I misunderstood them and that I was trying to follow them.

I do not see why a ban was necessary at all in this situation, I was completely willing to listen to any explanation you gave me and explain my own reasoning to you in the original ahelp. I had not harmed anyone's experience with my actions whatsoever either and my intent was never to break the rules.

I'm not trying to be a shitter, the rules are complex and hard and each admin gets to make their own judgments on those rules. I just wish I wouldn't get banned each time our interpretations do not align.

I don't want to be hostile with the administration team either. I don't get on hoping to get into a heated argument. I just want to play the game.


I'm not arguing that I didn't break the rules anymore, I'm arguing that it was never my intent and I wish to be unbanned because this is a misunderstanding.

In future incidents I will make sure to ahelp first whenever I want to do something that would IC get my character fired.

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Re: [NecromancerAnne] Isy232 - Banned for entering the armory.

Postby Hulkamania » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:42 am #537801

We've always had a precedent that breaking into the armory as a non-antagonist is already something threatening enough to consider you as "acting like an antagonist" and thus warranting an execution. This is only amplified on a server where a higher standard of conduct is expected.

I appreciate that you have ceded your argument and to me it shows that you have a genuine willingness to do better and be a better player.

I decided against elaborating further on this matter as at this point its best to just call the thing done instead of drilling something into you when it's not warranted.


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