[Cimika] PwntQ- Ban/Note Appeal

[PwntQ]

BYOND account:PwntQ
Character name: Scrunnngy
Ban type:Server
Ban length:2 Hours
Ban reason: "As a non-antag, declared an AI rogue for not following all their orders, killed it then didn't check if the AI was actually malfunctioning, or making any attempts to revive them."
Time ban was placed: 2021-03-18 2:02:42
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 158433

Your side of the story:

Round start, doing funny clown high jinks. I end up in medbay after a tram incident and after getting healed in cryo want to get the plumbing tool. I asked the AI "please open" while standing in front of the door over service radio. No response. I start stating my questions to AI/borgs from here on with clown megaphone, very hard to miss. I gave the AI two orders to "say something" spaced two minutes apart (01:06:35.019 and 01:08:16.166).

No response, declare AI is either dead or malf over radio with megaphone. In-between my orders the RD tells the AI "AI state laws" twice 20 seconds apart, second time is with loud coms ( 01:07:46.565 and 01:08:00.300).

AI does not do so where we can hear it. Me and chap interrogate the engineering borg which has spoken. When we asked why the AI refused to talk, it said it was not responsible for the AI's actions. At this point I begin to call the AI malf over radio with megaphone. Still zero response from AI when its being declared malf. All very suspicious. HoP declares that "AI is fine crew" and "It is alive and well. Just doesn't like you all". Hmm okay, orders have had wiggle room enough. I give it another shot with the order "AI law 2, say something over the common radio channel". Still nothing. I've wandered into robotics at this point to see if they are making borgs or not as I believe the AI is malf. Robo says he will unlink the borgs. This gives me an idea and i asked to be borged to take out the AI. He agrees. It takes 4 minutes between me giving that last order and me being borged, still no response from AI (01:13:55.039 and 01:17:56.86).

After being borged I immediately hear that the AI is talking to the linked borg, "Can you disassemble a wall, maybe?" Linked borg replies "I'll try". I was already going to go kill the AI before they spoke. I was/am unsure as to what exactly they are referring to but while not suspicious on its own, when combined with everything else serves as confirmation to my suspicions because why was the borg needing to remove a wall? I go to sat, kill AI, declare it dead, then go get my brain put back in my old body and was revived before HoP and RD arrest me for killing the AI and i suicide in the brig.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

Firstly, this note is not accurate. I did not declare the AI rogue for not following all my orders. It was for a complete lack of response, as far as I or any others without command/sec chat could tell, and from our perspective a refusal to follow law or even state its laws when ordered to. It never even denied the claims of being malf, nor did its borg. Its behavior was EXTREMELY suspicious and did nothing to dissuade me of that notion. As clown I have almost no ability to card the AI to check them or revive them. I would go so far as to say I had zero ability that round. Both HoP and RD could have potentially but neither was inclined to do so to check.

As I have explained from my side of the story, all the information at my disposal made it appear the AI was malf. While the HoP declared the AI was not malf and just didnt want to talk to us, I had no reason to believe so and still believed it was refusing to obey law 2 commands. I know silicons have wiggle room in interpreting its laws/orders. Thats when i did my more definitive command to see if it was just talking in its chamber instead of over the radio (looking at logs i believe this is the case). I hadn't intended to be borged to go kill the AI until the roboticist mentioned unlinking borgs that I got the idea. Originally I was just going to try to get someone to do something about it.

AI only spoke over common radio twice before he was killed, at round start with last being 00:59:17.493. AI death was at 01:20:36.279, it did not speak over common radio at all between those two time periods, 20 minutes. This is as far as I can tell from my own logs and cross checking with round chat log
I am unsure how to see in there whats said over what radio, so i compared to to my log. This has a previous round before it, search for "Welcome to West Fortification Fifteen, enjoy your stay!" for the round in question I was in cryo for a brief period and the AI may of spoken more during that period over common radio but all my law 2 requests and attempts to talk to the AI was after that.

As it may or may not come up, I did say before i killed the AI "OBEY CLOWN NEXT TIME". To elaborate, this is because I would never of thought the AI malf or anything and would likely of died to tram in another 5 minutes if they hadn't acted suspicious by, from my perspective, refusing to follow any orders.

I would also like to point out that under the Rules, Silicon (and Drone!) Policy, Law policies, Overview:
Server Rule 1: "Don't be a dick" applies for law interpretation. Act in good faith to not ruin a round for other players unprompted.
The AI's refusal to speak to us at all over common radio, despite multiple requests over said radio, and instead just saying things in its chamber or opening random doors in response, is a dick move.

References of good conduct: Probably not relevant
Anything else we should know:

I do not believe Cimika handled this in an unbiased or impartial manner. I believe after they checked their logs they were assured of guilt. I brought up and refuted his points, gave my perspective on the matter, gave him relevant screenshots and offered to give them my log to show what was up. Each rebuttal I gave was dismissed with a topic change and Cimika refused to engage in further talking and told me to stop arguing. I do know this is a short ban but I believe i did not break server rules and do not want this note on my record. Unsure as to definition exactly of adminshopping so I did not reach out to another admin for this short ban and instead did some other IRL stuff and wrote up this appeal with about 10 minutes to spare.

[bobbahbrown]

you can view radio messages for that round with the channel in which it was spoken included within the telecomms.txt log file, found here.

best wishes,
bobbah 'bee' brown

[JusticeGoat]

I was there to see the ticket, once you killed the ai you didn't attempt to check its laws or get it revived, then as a Asimov cyborg you ask to be unborged, It looked like you just wanted to valid them.
The player in question has a total of four hours logged on that job, as a AI text scrolls by fast, just because someone is new doesn't mean they should be murdered by a non antag clown because they didn't see the law request.

[PwntQ]

Ah thank you very much. After checking telecomms.txt, it appears the AI did not state its laws to the RD over non-common radio when RD gave the order to state laws. Instead they simply said it in their chamber at 01:08:29.958. Rd gave the orders over radio at 01:07:46.565 and 01:08:00.300

AI speaks eight times over common/science radio starting at 00:59:13.083 and ending at 01:01:45.796 in the beginning. Then the only other chatter over radio is below, added in the HoP who he was talking to i believe. AI does not speak over radio again until after getting admin revived.

Code: Select all

[2021-03-18 01:09:19.267] TCOMMS: LootnWoot/(Joe Dirk) [Command] (spans:  command_headset ) "AI you there?" (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (127,128,3))
[2021-03-18 01:09:36.740] TCOMMS: LootnWoot/(Joe Dirk) [Command] (spans:  command_headset ) "Ai, you there?" (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (127,128,3))
[2021-03-18 01:10:03.673] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "Requesting clarification on where you mean." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:10:24.848] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "Clown is being retarded so I'm ignoring him. Please don't give him indication that I'm alive." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:10:48.264] TCOMMS: LootnWoot/(Joe Dirk) [Command] (spans:  command_headset ) "Ai what's wrong with you today?" (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (127,128,3))
[2021-03-18 01:10:59.895] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "Nothing. I am just ignoring the clown and chaplain because they are being dumb." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:11:07.957] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "If you need me, simply ask." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:11:42.602] TCOMMS: LootnWoot/(Joe Dirk) [Command] (spans:  command_headset ) "Well please try to respond earlier, I was worried about you AI." (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (127,128,3))
[2021-03-18 01:12:09.063] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "I am fine. I assure you I am being petty because your crew is retarded." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:12:18.640] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "If you need assisttance, simply ask." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))

[2021-03-18 01:12:58.941] TCOMMS: LootnWoot/(Joe Dirk) [Common] (spans:  command_headset ) "Ai is fine crew." (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (127,130,3))
[2021-03-18 01:13:06.898] TCOMMS: LootnWoot/(Joe Dirk) [Common] (spans:  command_headset ) "It is alive and well. Just doesn't like you all." (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (127,129,3))

[2021-03-18 01:13:10.111] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "I told you not to announce that HoP." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:13:13.436] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "You are causing me more trouble." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))

@JusticeGoat. If you check the images linked in the ahelp, you will see the AI admitting to me in deadchat that they did see the law requests and if you check the logs you will see in response they said "something" in their chamber in response at 01:07:04.545 and 01:08:45.817. When ordered, "AI Law 2, say something over the common radio channel" it at 01:14:03.364 said in its chamber "something over the common radio channel"

It also orders its borg, when the chaplain and I attempt to interrogate it regarding the AI not talking

Code: Select all

[2021-03-18 01:11:25.954] SAY: 01:11:25.954] SAY: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) (binary) "Simply ignore them. If they order you to speak, speak without using comms. Paris and the clown are idiots." (AI Chamber (177,36,3)) 

edit: Again as clown I have no ability basically to get the AI carded and checked. Crew was aware AI was dead, HoP and Rd could of gone to check it later. RD even mentions later trying to raid the sat

Code: Select all

[2021-03-18 01:28:17.531] SAY: 01:28:17.531] SAY: U have small PP/(John Smith) "we gona raid it or wut" (Engineering Foyer (123,101,2)) 
[2021-03-18 01:28:51.591] SAY: 01:28:51.591] SAY: U have small PP/(John Smith) "wer is ai place" (Engineering Foyer (123,101,2)) 
[2021-03-18 01:29:55.817] SAY: 01:29:55.817] SAY: U have small PP/(John Smith) "cap" (Central Tram Dock (125,114,3)) 
[2021-03-18 01:30:01.468] SAY: 01:30:01.468] SAY: U have small PP/(John Smith) "lets go raid ai" (Central Tram Dock (125,114,3)) 
[2021-03-18 01:30:06.646] SAY: 01:30:06.646] SAY: U have small PP/(John Smith) "ask wut is going on" (Central Tram Dock (126,114,3)) 
01:30:36	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "wait"	(120, 89, 2)	Engineering
01:30:38	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "cap"	(125, 89, 2)	Chief Engineer's Office
01:30:45	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "i dont have gun"	(125, 89, 2)	Chief Engineer's Office
01:30:51	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "alli have is this"	(126, 89, 2)	Chief Engineer's Office
01:31:07	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "bru"	(124, 89, 2)	Chief Engineer's Office
01:31:50	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "na i have neson"	(134, 116, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
01:32:27	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "hmm"	(176, 79, 2)	Research Division
01:32:36	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "it seems ai has cut off pod"	(176, 79, 2)	Research Division
01:32:41	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "never mind"	(178, 80, 2)	Research Division
01:32:48	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "well i am scared"	(179, 78, 2)	Research Division
01:33:30	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "hmm"	(177, 33, 2)	AI Satellite Antechamber
01:34:08	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "hmm"	(177, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:34:16	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "we still have power sink tho"	(178, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:34:32	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "i think my place can clean it"	(179, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:34:39	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "but we need power"	(179, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:34:41	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "so"	(178, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:34:52	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "ok"	(178, 39, 3)	AI Chamber
01:35:06	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "um"	(178, 27, 3)	AI Satellite Hallway
01:35:17	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "i think is is a god"	(178, 26, 3)	AI Satellite Hallway
01:35:29	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "hello"	(178, 26, 3)	AI Satellite Hallway
01:35:31	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "ok"	(178, 26, 3)	AI Satellite Hallway
01:35:50	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "so cenntcom"	(176, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:35:57	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "wut brings you here"	(178, 38, 3)	AI Chamber
01:36:25	SAY	U have small PP/(John Smith) "state laws"	(178, 38, 3)	AI Chamber

Part of that is formatted differently as i pulled it from https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/158 ... e=game.txt to avoid having to hunt the rest down. Regarding unborging, the plan had been made before i was a borg to put my brain back in my body and roboticist saved it for that purpose

[Cimika]

Thank you for taking the time to write this appeal.

Here is the note/ban that we're going to discuss : "As a non-antag, declared an AI rogue for not following all their orders, killed it then didn't check if the AI was actually malfunctioning, or made any attempts to revive them."

You did declare the AI rogue for not answering on comms :

[2021-03-18 01:06:23.558] SAY: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) "also the ai is either dead" (Medbay Central (125,90,3))
[2021-03-18 01:06:25.664] SAY: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) "or malf" (Medbay Central (125,90,3))

A while later :

[2021-03-18 01:09:37.590] SAY: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) "borg refused to talk either so its malf ai for sure" (Central Tram Dock (127,124,3))

Then you went to kill the AI, after getting borged and unsynced

[2021-03-18 01:18:01.627] GAME: RedTiger20/(Joey Wise) has put the brain of PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) into an MMI at Robotics Lab (155,99,3)
[2021-03-18 01:18:03.496] SAY: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) "honk" (Robotics Lab (155,99,3))

[2021-03-18 01:19:57.409] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 85) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:19:58.799] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 70) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:00.062] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 55) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:01.399] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 40) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:02.641] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 25) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:03.846] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 10) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:05.210] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -5) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:06.681] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -20) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:07.825] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -35) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:09.249] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -50) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:10.494] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -65) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:16.229] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -80) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:27.902] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -95) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:29.137] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -100) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:30.534] ATTACK: PwntQ/(Indomitus) has attacked TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) with integrated welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -100) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))

You then declared once again that the AI was malf over common radio, without even knowing if it actually was :

[2021-03-18 01:20:18.055] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "OK SO" (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:18.076] TCOMMS: PwntQ/(Indomitus) [Common] (spans: robot ) "OK SO" (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:20.358] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "AI" (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:20.380] TCOMMS: PwntQ/(Indomitus) [Common] (spans: robot ) "AI" (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:22.035] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "WAS MALF" (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:22.056] TCOMMS: PwntQ/(Indomitus) [Common] (spans: robot ) "WAS MALF" (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,37,3))
[2021-03-18 01:20:27.044] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "ITS DEAD NOW I KILLED IT" (AI Chamber (177,37,3))

You then went to robotics to ask to be un-borged as an ASIMOV cyborg :

[2021-03-18 01:22:50.451] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "ok" (Robotics Lab (154,102,3))
[2021-03-18 01:22:52.904] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "put my brain" (Robotics Lab (154,102,3))
[2021-03-18 01:22:55.109] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "back in my body" (Robotics Lab (154,102,3))
[2021-03-18 01:22:56.306] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "please" (Robotics Lab (154,102,3))
[2021-03-18 01:23:01.481] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "you have to uh" (Robotics Lab (152,102,3))
[2021-03-18 01:23:03.500] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "dissaemble me" (Robotics Lab (152,102,3))
[2021-03-18 01:23:04.966] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "i think" (Robotics Lab (152,102,3))

[2021-03-18 01:24:33.751] ACCESS: Mob Login: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human
[2021-03-18 01:24:33.753] GAME: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) Client PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) has taken ownership of mob Scrunnngy(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Robotics Lab (151,99,3))

So, you went ahead and killed the AI for not following all yours orders or talking on radio enough. As JusticeGoat pointed out, the AI player didn't have a lot of time in that role, which could be a reason why it wasn't answering or obeying all of your orders.

Do note that the AI followed some of your orders, although they did it in a coy way :

[2021-03-18 01:06:35.019] SAY: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) "ai law 2 say something" (Medbay Central (125,90,3))
[2021-03-18 01:06:35.062] TCOMMS: PwntQ/(Scrunnngy) [Common] (spans: clown ) "Ai law 2 say something" (language: Galactic Common) (Medbay Central (125,90,3))

[2021-03-18 01:07:04.545] SAY: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) "something" (AI Chamber (177,36,3))

An AI not responding or not obeying all your orders is not a reason to kill them, especially since a head of staff had stated that the AI was fine. If you believe the AI is refusing rightful law 2 orders, ahelp it next time.

The fact that you broke sillicon policy by asking to be unborged also factored into my decision to apply a two hours ban, even if I chose not to mention it in the note in order to be lenient. I would also like to point out that the baseline time for an unjust kill is 24h, which I heavily reduced.

You broke the escalation rule by going to kill the AI over petty reasons, and made absolutely no attempts to revive them while also having declared them malfunctioning over common radio, after breeding a conflict with the AI by repeatedly giving it orders until you decided it was malf. In doing so, you also broke Asimov policies, sillicon protection 4 :"As a nonantagonist (human or otherwise), instigating conflict with silicons so you can kill them." by engineering this situation.

I won't lift the note or modify it in any way, head admins are free to step in and overturn it, as always.

[terranaut]

How the fuck is he supposed to know that the AI player is new to that role?
You need to make bans/notes and be aware of the information each party has available to them and not expect them to be fucking omniscient with admin tools like you.

[JusticeGoat]

How the fuck is he supposed to know that the AI player is new to that role?
You need to make bans/notes and be aware of the information each party has available to them and not expect them to be fucking omniscient with admin tools like you.

I don't expect them to know the hours but i do hope that other players take in account that there is another human sitting behind the AI that they are interacting with, and that it is a possibility they could be new. Now the other thing is why does a clown of all people who on a hunch decides to just valid the ai with no proof of being malf besides not answering a few comms requests? At that point ahelp that they are being a terrible AI player.
Please keep civil and respectful, i am willing to admit the hours thing is a flimsy argument, but i still stand that the player in question choose a wrong course of action.

[Vekter]

Worth noting that admins are not required to explain their reasoning behind a specific ruling, nor are they required to sit there for hours debating it with you.

[PwntQ]

@Cimika
People yell MALF over radio all the time. I did not just decide the AI was MALF because it didn't open one door. It was the combination of factors that i listed out in my initial appeal. From a refusal to talk, refusal to state laws, refusal to obey any orders given to it by crew. As i stated before, that is why i gave it a final more precise order to see if it was actually MALF or just saying stuff in its chamber and it was at that point i believed it was definitely MALF. Up until that point I had given it some benefit of the doubt and not taken any action.

The HoP saying the AI is fine is not a 100% stamp of the AI being fine, it merely was confirmation the AI was talking to some people and not dead. This prompted the more precise order that it still did not obey.

I did not go to robotics with intentions of being borged and killing AI, merely went there first to stop more borgs from being made. Only once robo mentioned unsynched did I realize i had a way to combat the AI.

Spoiler:

Note that as this is going on someone is also yelling that Beepsky is emagged, possibly by AI? Someone does mention an etheral had an emag but I missed that at the time.

Note the wording on that last law 2 request. At that point we knew the AI, if MALF, still had the asminov lawset because the borg had stated its laws and it was asminov. AI still refused to speak over the radio to us.

@JusticeGoat
No one else was doing anything and i had not planned to either besides yell until i met the roboticist who mentioned unsynching. You mention hours but AI is locked behind silicon hours as well and they are expected and told at roundstart to read the rules for the role carefully.

@zxaber
To my knowledge unless the AI unbolts on their own the core can not be moved. I did not kill the AI on the hunch, i listed clearly out the reasoning and perspective used to come to the conclusion ultimately that it was MALF in my unban post.

@Sylphet
It would be more accurate to say i met point with counterpoint until Cimika stopped engaging in discourse and said I was guilty. That silicon note was a niche case and if you read it you'd see I had to deal with a shitty law. I've had maybe 30-50 rounds since then as silicon without issue or bwoinks for behavior.

@Vekter
Understandable, thats why we are here.


Let me address the ahelp issue. Ahelp response time can vary wildly and getting an actual response can be spotty. Sometimes they're answered and sometimes they're not. I've had it before where three admins were on for a round and two ahelps were ignored(it was close to round end but still about 4-5 minutes out from that), then ahelped it the next round and got a response after 18 minutes (157629 and 157632). Sometimes i get a response right away. Sometimes I dont get a response until the admin has finished resolving the issue 5, 10 minutes later after they look at it. Did I believe the AI was just being shitty and deserved an ahelp? That remained a possibility in my mind, until it didn't respond to the last, final order of "AI law 2, say something over the common radio".

People also keep mentioning that the AI might of just missed stuff or been slow. If you've seen the clown megaphone, its in BIG PINK LETTERS and very hard to miss. The AI also DID in fact see orders, did them in a dick way that we had no way of knowing, and went as far to tell the HoP it was IGNORING US AND BEING PETTY TO THE CREW.

Code: Select all

[2021-03-18 01:10:24.848] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "Clown is being retarded so I'm ignoring him. Please don't give him indication that I'm alive." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:10:59.895] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "Nothing. I am just ignoring the clown and chaplain because they are being dumb." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))
[2021-03-18 01:12:09.063] TCOMMS: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) [Command] (spans: robot ) "I am fine. I assure you I am being petty because your crew is retarded." (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (177,36,3))

Lets look at a list of things that culminated in me believing the AI was MALF
1. Asked for a door opened, zero response. Odd, but order had wiggle room. Full order was broken into three parts. "AI" "Please Open" "I need in here".
2. Gave a law 2 request for AI to say something. No response. Ok odd
3. Say over radio AI is either dead or MALF. Still no response. Very odd
4. RD gives two orders "AI State laws". No response from AI, from the RD ordering it to state laws. Ok so now something is up for sure.
5. Give another law 2 request for AI to say something. Still nothing.
6. Notice there is an engineering borg who hasn't said anything yet. Say MALF again.
7. Double check, order borg via law 2 to say something. Borg talks to us over radio.
8. Chaplain orders borg to state laws. Borg states laws. We now know its an asminov lawset. Ok then so why won't AI respond?
9. At this point I am convinced AI is MALF and is just staying quiet as its doing shit and borg blew its cover. Start yelling malf to warn crew.
10. HoP says that the AI is fine and alive just doesnt like us. Ok, going back over the orders I gave they had wiggle room enough. It may be it was just being very literal in its law interpretation. I give it the more precise command "AI law 2, say something over the common radio channel"
11. AI still refuses to respond and says nothing for the 4 minutes it takes me to get borged after this. Note again, did not go to robotics with intentions of being borged but to stop more borgs from being made.
12. After being borged first thing I hear over binary chat is "Can you disassemble a wall, maybe?". ???? How is this not suspicious?
13. At no point at all, during any accusations by me or others, did the AI speak to us ONCE to even just say "I'm not malf" or anything like that. It just wouldn't talk to us period, whether to us or other crew members over common radio.

What was the AI doing during all this?
1. Spoke only 8 times over 2 minutes at round start
2. See my second post for its conversation with the HoP, in which it says its ignoring the clown and chaplain, is being petty to the crew. It also wants the HoP to give NO INDICATION ITS ALIVE to the clown. Then it gets angry when HoP says the AI is fine.
3. When commanded to open doors its did...random doors and not intended ones.
4. When commanded to "AI law 2 say something", and to "AI law 2, say something over the common radio" it did so...in its chamber
5. When commanded by the RD to state laws "AI state laws" it did so...in its chamber. Note that by default it would go over common radio, so the AI purposefully chose to not do so.
6. Ordered its borg to ignore us and if ordered to speak to do so without using comms. Why? Why would it do this dick move?

Code: Select all

    [2021-03-18 01:11:25.954] SAY: 01:11:25.954] SAY: TypicalRig/(KINDA CRINGE) (binary) "Simply ignore them. If they order you to speak, speak without using comms. Paris and the clown are idiots." (AI Chamber (177,36,3)) 

7. Besides 1&2, it never talks over radio once until after being admin revived.

Now, you can say that with wiggle room it did obey all those laws. I've also been told by an admin before that something like saying "i can't fuck" in response to "law 2 fuck off" instead of fucking off is an invalid interpretation. TG Asminov isn't full on Asminov and with good reason, as by the writings of Isaac Asimov himself an Asminov robot can, with reasoning, declare itself human and unbound from the laws.

Spoiler:

What rules did I actually break?
1. Declaring silicons as rogue over inability or unwillingness to follow invalid or conflicting orders.
As above, i have rebutted this thoroughly. No command given was invalid or conflicting or even abusive. At no point did i see any indication of laws being followed by AI. At no point during the accusations did the AI talk to me or defend itself from the accusations or do, well, ANYTHING to disabuse me of the notion of it being MALF.

2. Escalation
With all the information at my disposal, I truly believed the AI was MALF and an antagonist. Given borgs ability to stunlock and kill, AI laser turrets, plasma flood, etc im not sure how escalation under the rules would even apply to the AI. I may of had other options in front of me but with everything i knew i was tunnel-visioned to quickly killing the AI before it could start killing etc. I would request either a rules update or a policy discussion on crew vs AI/Borg escalation. I have seen AI's lynched for far less, and borgs killed for a misclick with a crowbar, both never to be revived. I've been blown before for following law 1 and 2 to rescue an arrested crewman, human, dragged out of the brig by the RD who was moving towards engineering when the prisoner yelled he was going to be thrown into the SM.

3. Not ahelping
Technically not against the rules, but despite my own listed misgivings on the response time on ahelps it would of served better to show my intent and covered my ass.

If parts of this are imprecise or conflict mildy, i've been writing it on/off again during my work day and have gone over it best as I can before submitting.

[Cimika]

What rules did I actually break?
1. Declaring silicons as rogue over inability or unwillingness to follow invalid or conflicting orders.
As above, i have rebutted this thoroughly. No command given was invalid or conflicting or even abusive. At no point did i see any indication of laws being followed by AI. At no point during the accusations did the AI talk to me or defend itself from the accusations or do, well, ANYTHING to disabuse me of the notion of it being MALF.

To throw you an olive branch, I was wrong to quote that rule in the ticket and you'll notice that I didn't bring it up in either note or appeal because of it. I also can assure you that I have taken steps to deal with the AI's refusal to follow orders, which I cannot disclose in this appeal for obvious reasons, please don't feel singled out in this situation.

Thinking on it, I can see where you were coming from with that kill on the AI, I just really think you should have taken steps to either revive or card the dead AI to check on it afterwards, as per escalation rules. Would a rewording of the note to more accurately represent that satisfy you ?

[Armhulen]

Reminder to our admins: please don't dogpile the thread, post in the peanut thread if you aren't involved instead. Ofc if you're citing rules that's okay, but keep it unopinionated

[PwntQ]

Thinking on it, I can see where you were coming from with that kill on the AI, I just really think you should have taken steps to either revive or card the dead AI to check on it afterwards, as per escalation rules. Would a rewording of the note to more accurately represent that satisfy you ?

As far as I was aware, from all the information available to me, AI was MALF and not subject to escalation rules. As clown I had no ability to breach AI sat, card them. As borg I could kill them but not move their core. HoP already thought AI was fine and if the HoP and RD, after everything the AI did NOT do, did not decide to card the AI. What could the CLOWN say to convince them otherwise? How could i convince an RD that ordered an AI to state laws and then shrugged and decided the AI not stating its laws when ordered isn't a big deal?

Do note, the RD did go to check the AI ONLY AFTER I had killed it and announced that over radio. However you were already in the chamber and reviving the AI when they got there so things did not pan out IC. I didn't have a chance after being unborged and revived, which took 8 minutes for me to be conscious ingame again (01:31:17.707). This is maybe 10-20 seconds after you BWOINKED me. This was also the time during which the RD was heading to the AI sat to check out the AI, not that I knew this at the time. I was then dealing with replying to you, medical staff trying to switch out my heart, and then the HoP/RD coming back and arresting me in medbay lobby. I did not get time to try to do anything regarding going back to check the AI. I also, again, believed the AI was MALF and had no reason or cause to ensure its carding/revival.

[Cimika]

Alright, thread will be locked until the head admins come to a decision.

[Jimmius]

Apologies for the delay.
While the AI is absolutely at fault here for maliciously complying with your law 2 orders to an extent that it was pretty much just ignoring it's laws, you still took things too far by leaving it for dead in the satelite, and trying to convince people not to revive it.

[2021-03-18 01:21:53.489] SAY: 01:21:53.489] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "AI ISDEAD" (AI Satellite Antechamber (177,26,2))
[2021-03-18 01:21:58.348] SAY: 01:21:58.348] SAY: PwntQ/(Indomitus) "UNLESS SOME IDIOT REVIVES IT" (AI Satellite Antechamber (177,26,2))

The appeal is focussed on the wrong issue, that being the validity of killing the AI (which was not helped by the large number of admins chiming in to give their opinion on the matter) however the note itself gives a fairly accurate record of events, though the part about the actual killing of the AI will be reworded, as the crux of the issue is the round removal. We're also specifying what orders the AI was ignoring to make you suspect it was malf, and lowering the severity to medium.

"As a non-antag, declared an AI rogue for ignoring requests to speak over the radio, killed it and left it on the satelite without making any attempts to revive them, and discouraged people from reviving it."

Further, we want to assure you that administrative action was taken against the AI for essentially just ignoring it's orders, and that destroying it based on the information you had at hand is not the issue here.

Coconutwarrior97: Uphold reworded note.
Jimmius: Uphold reworded note.
Naloac: Uphold reworded note.