[O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

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Evoralyn
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:10 pm

[O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by Evoralyn » #618950

BYOND account: Evoralyn
Character name: Eve Hybrid
Ban type: Note
Ban reason:
during round 172896 as a non antagonist, attacked a head of security multiple times with a welding tool because he was killing slimes that were on the emergency shuttle. attacking security with lethals for clearing out safety hazards on the escape shuttle is not the kind of behavior we want to see here, avoid doing something like this in the future
Time ban was placed: 2021-11-11 16:32:55
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 172875
Your side of the story: As the shuttle was nearing the station, someone I presume in xenobio had managed to make a big group of grey slimes that were following one person around. At first I reacted to this as you would, keeping my distance, but it became clear pretty quick that these slimes were not automatically hostile. That was pretty cool, a new mechanic I'd never seen before, and I spent the last few minutes before roundend watching the slimes and listening to the guy who had them hanging around him.

Shuttle arrives and the slimes and crew board, and it becomes pretty clear that the slimes aren't initially hostile, but will glomp you if provoked - I got glomped like this a single time myself. Still, they seemed mostly content to hang around with the guy who made them, and were a neat new addition and something pretty unique. Shuttle takes off and the HoS, Axle Brady, along with a borg starts to fire extinguish the slimes. A few crew are calling for him to stop, but he's committed. I run up and push him back, knock him down to get him to stop, but he batons me and I flop over. By the time I get back up, the slimes are all dead and Axle heads over to take a seat.

Frustrated that the cool unique slime gang was killed, I run over to Axle and hit him a few times, three or four? with a lit welder before he batons me again and welds me in return. I get dragged away by a medic and sigh to myself, sad that the slimes are dead but resigned. Then I get bwoinked asking why I'd attacked the HoS, accused of doing it for no reason, accused of griefing, and accused of having shit escalation.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Literally nobody here was critted. (Maybe me? but I was looking at the ahelp chat at that point and didn't pay much attention, I deserved it anyway if I did black out.) Literally nobody here died. Literally nobody here even ahelped, but I still had to eat a note over it. I can't under any circumstances see how this extremely minor altercation that impacted virtually nobody's round and nobody even cared enough about to complain over should become a permanent mark on my account.

Big thanks to Axle himself for providing this videoclip of the entire encounter - https://streamable.com/sz35hy

cyan made it pretty clear in the ahelps and in ooc afterwards that they weren't interested in lifting this note, so unless they change their mind here, I would in fact like a headmin ruling on this.
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sinfulbliss
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:53 am
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Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by sinfulbliss » #618951

Just want to point to the pertinent rules regarding escalation here:
You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence.
It seems hitting someone with a welder a few times falls under this allowed criteria of "instigating a conflict."
Last edited by sinfulbliss on Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Archie700
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Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by Archie700 » #618952

For context, the slimes were produced by a slime gland inserted into Dunham by me, and by the time he brought them to the shuttle he had an army.
I would also note that I dragged Eve out of the way and healed her and she didn't try to engage with Axle again after that.

EDIT: The most damning thing is that if the slimes really were harmful to begin with, then the person who brought those slimes to the shuttle should also be in trouble for bringing in the slimes that he produced from his slime gland.
Last edited by Archie700 on Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cSeal
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:10 am
Byond Username: O0cyann0o

Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by cSeal » #618953

Appeal denied
Clearing out a safety hazard in the form of slimes-which can very easily turn hostile for just about any reason- does not constitute initiating a conflict, especially considering they weren't even YOUR slimes
If you feel the wording of the note is too harsh or doesn't accurately convey the situation, id be happy to edit it
as you already requested headmin review however, I imagine you'd rather just wait for them to weigh in
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Evoralyn
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:10 pm

Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by Evoralyn » #618957

No ongoing in-round event needs to have been created by a particular individual for them to enjoy the event or feel some kind of investment in it. That the event in question here happened to be slimes who could become dangerous if provoked doesn't make my enjoyment of them, or my in-character anger at the person who killed them, any less legitimate. Nobody was seriously impacted by the few swings made at Axle, and the violence only came after a non-harmful attempt to protect the slimes failed - in the video you can even see me trying to space Axle's extinguisher, which failed due to the shuttle's shields.

I'm not appealing this note on the specific phrasing, but under the second clause of note appeals -
The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter
I don't believe given the situation and the relatively minor nature of the engagement that a bwoink was even warranted here, nevermind a note, as nobody had their round significantly impacted and no griefing was intended.

I'll wait for a headmin ruling.

Edited after realizing I had a bit more to say
Last edited by Evoralyn on Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Redrover1760
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:27 am
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Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by Redrover1760 » #621323

cSeal wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:12 pm Appeal denied
Clearing out a safety hazard in the form of slimes-which can very easily turn hostile for just about any reason- does not constitute initiating a conflict, especially considering they weren't even YOUR slimes
If you feel the wording of the note is too harsh or doesn't accurately convey the situation, id be happy to edit it
as you already requested headmin review however, I imagine you'd rather just wait for them to weigh in
First thing, slimes are not aggressive at all, unless they have not been fed for like 10 or so minutes, or if a specific xenobio item was used (red slimes etc). They do not randomly turn aggressive, they are nowhere near the state where they can turn hostile for any reason (outside of being provoked, maybe?), outside of the xenobiologist being an antag, in a way that axle clearing them out would be considered a good thing.

In addition, there was a clear chain of escalation here, being told to stop repeatedly and being ignored, then getting attacked in an effort to make him stop. Axle was only making other people upset, as good intentions he probably had, and ignoring others. This would definitely apply at least half under "If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you."

If Axle actually wanted to address the situation and understood xenobio, tackling the Xenobiologist or interrogating him would be the ideal method to solve the problem, instead of "kill slimes to provoke the xenobiologist/etc into fighting you".

Numerous other times where I have seen people gang up on a person when only one person was wronged but they believe the instigator was being a jerk. This is no different.

In addition, the note fails to clarify what the safety hazard is and the context behind it, at all, and instead leaves us to presume it was hostile slimes.
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cSeal
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:10 am
Byond Username: O0cyann0o

Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by cSeal » #621331

Redrover1760 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:42 am
First thing, slimes are not aggressive at all, unless they have not been fed for like 10 or so minutes, or if a specific xenobio item was used (red slimes etc). They do not randomly turn aggressive, they are nowhere near the state where they can turn hostile for any reason (outside of being provoked, maybe?)
They turn aggressive if hungry, yes, or if hit (which can be done on accident) or even if hugged. the slimes were not all new, and certainly could've been hungry, as they were not made via xenobio and therefore likely weren't fed
Redrover1760 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:42 am This would definitely apply at least half under "If you perform an action which has zero benefit to you other than making others upset (like killing Ian) I will ban you if you adminhelp when someone kills you."
It would definitely not. This ruling was to stop ban baiting, killing potentially hazardous simple mobs that are flooding the evac shuttle because they eat people is not anywhere near killing a harmless pet 'just cause'
Redrover1760 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:42 am If Axle actually wanted to address the situation and understood xenobio, tackling the Xenobiologist or interrogating him would be the ideal method to solve the problem, instead of "kill slimes to provoke the xenobiologist/etc into fighting you".
the slimes were produced via a slime gland that was not implanted into a xenobiologist. there wasn't even a scientist in sight during the beginning of the exchange
Redrover1760 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:42 am In addition, the note fails to clarify what the safety hazard is and the context behind it, at all, and instead leaves us to presume it was hostile slimes.
Thats very fortunate because that's meant to be the assumption you make
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cSeal
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 2:10 am
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Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by cSeal » #621334

Evoralyn wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:15 pm I don't believe given the situation and the relatively minor nature of the engagement that a bwoink was even warranted here, nevermind a note, as nobody had their round significantly impacted and no griefing was intended.
I apologize for the late response, before I figured there was no point weighing in any further as you requested headmin review instantly, but after some discussion with the headmins to explain my reasoning and some time thinking, I figured I did not accurately express my reasoning for noting over this to you, which isnt really fair of me
The note accurately described the situation, which in my opinion was an example of over escalation (for the following reasons)- which is something that other admins might need to know youve had a run in with in the future.
1. Slimes are a threat, not a pet. Theyre annoying to kill without a fire extinguisher or other ways to cool them down, and can deal clone damage which is a pain to fix
Combined with the fact that there was a LOT of em, an average fella that happens to aggro the slimes is gonna get, at the very least, injured in a very annoying way, and at worst is going to die before they can get a fire extinguisher. because of this I consider it fair that they're viewed as a hazard, outside of certain items forcing them to be passive
2. Escalation policy states the following
You may instigate conflict with another player within reason
A few hits from a welding tool isn't that bad, sure, but generally conflict doesn't end there, which is why our policy specifies the starting of a conflict should be reasonable-initiating a fight, especially a lethal one with someone over them clearing out a hazard is not something that I consider reasonable
Obviously, these situations aren't entirely equivalent, but would you consider attacking someone with lethals over them trying to remove a harmful chem grenade from the shuttle good escalation? to me, this is similar; someone saw a potential hazard and tried to remove it, and you attacked them with a welder for it. Whether im correct in this opinion is up to the headmins, but I hope now you can at least understand where I was coming from when I noted you
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Evoralyn
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Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by Evoralyn » #621769

cSeal wrote: The note accurately described the situation
I am not, as I tried to make clear in my last post, appealing the exact phrasing of the note. I am instead appealing the idea that the situation warranted a note whatsoever, as I believe it fully fell within the realm of proper escalation. An in-character disagreement over an event which escalated to mild, and immediately quelled, violence is par for the course in my experience on tg's lowrp servers. If this has changed at some point in the last few years without any obvious documentation, I would still like for the headmins to make it clear with a final ruling setting precedent that initiating brief violent conflict over disputes is now worthy of admin attention.
cSeal wrote: in my opinion
Exactly why I'd like a headmin ruling, since my opinion, and the rule on escalation as currently written, disagrees.
cSeal wrote: but generally conflict doesn't end there,
In general doesn't apply, since in this instance, it did end there, and I was in fact bwoinked the very instant no party was fighting anymore, so you already knew it had ended there. If I'd been griefing, as I was accused of doing in the ahelp exchange, I'd have gone back to the fight regardless of what was said to me (which I did not and would not), so "generally" cannot be used to define this specific situation, or specific situations in "general".

I understood all your reasons before, but found them insufficient as I still do, so we're right back where we were a month ago. I do appreciate the effort, though.
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tattle
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Re: [O0cyann0o} Evoralyn - Welding is not okay (Note appeal)

Post by tattle » #622862

Hello, and apologies for the delay in response. No excuses from me.

Ultimately we decided that this incident was handled sufficiently ICly, and the note paints an unfair picture of the situation where Evoralyn went directly to welder hits. After Evoralyn was put into crit and healed out, they didn't interact with the HoS at all.

It's true that slimes have the potential to be very dangerous, as Cyan has said. And had this situation turned out differently, like with the HoS being killed for doing their job by removing a hazard, a note would have been more appropriate.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Remove note
NamelessFairy: Remove note
RaveRadbury: Remove note
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