Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

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samahthewise69696
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Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #618988

BYOND account: somah69
Character name: Paris johnson
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Forever
Ban reason: https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... nknown.png
Time ban was placed: 2021-11-10 05:37:22
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybill
Round ID in which ban was placed: 172804
Your side of the story: There were multiple heretics on the station, having just killed one I spot someone wearing a ENG hardsuit as a chaplain which i go to arrest them I find out there a void heretic and proceed to execute. Admin pm's me about it.
Why you think you should be unbanned: please forgive me for citing space law here but they commited theft. The theft they commited is even put as a example for theft on the wiki about spacelaw.

(Theft section of space law.) Weapons fall into this category, as do valuable items that are in limited supply such as insulated gloves, spacesuits, and jetpacks.
Note that Cargo breaking open crates to illegally arm and armor themselves are guilty of theft.

"Limited supply items such as spacesuits." A eng spacesuit is one of the most limited supply spacesuit with only around 3 being on each map. Its not like they even needed the suit, the station wasn't covered in plasma or wasn't deprusizzed. There is no reason they should have that suit aside from being a void heretic or just stealing it.

Its my duty as a sec officer to arrest people that commit crimes. Theft is a crime and they got arrested for it, and it turned out they were a antag.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #619026

(quick note for other admins: the actual round this happened in was 172802, the note was placed during the next round since it ended while we were talking)

so i want to preface this by saying the note wasn't meant to be "you broke the rules" so much as it is "it feels like the way you're playing security is a bit overzealous and might lead into problems in the future". killing a confirmed heretic is obviously fine on lrp, and it is security's job to look for antags.

that said, while you can cite space law as being a reason to arrest and search someone who's taken useful limited items outside of their job, the crux of the note is that the method of "finding reasons to arrest, take to brig and search people" you were using feels less like a reasonable level of suspicion and more of you going out of your way to find any and all means of locating valids

i'd also just like to point out a few excerpts from your say logs during the same round
[2021-11-10 04:30:04.986] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "i will let this slide" (Engineering Hallway (118,107,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:05.726] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "if you" (Engineering Hallway (118,107,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:06.740] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "break into" (Engineering Hallway (118,107,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:08.367] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "det office" (Engineering Hallway (118,107,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:09.082] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "please" (Engineering Hallway (118,107,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:12.292] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "i need the forsnics" (Engineering Hallway (118,107,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:14.955] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "and the det is retarded" (Engineering Hallway (118,106,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:23.997] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "even worse" (Technical Storage (116,108,2))
[2021-11-10 04:30:25.945] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "a women" (Technical Storage (116,108,2))
[2021-11-10 04:42:41.191] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "yes im very corrpt so corrupt i arrest people for stealing" (Central Tram Underpass (107,122,2))
[2021-11-10 04:43:11.019] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "what they do?" (Brig (89,147,3))
[2021-11-10 04:43:36.797] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "cope" (Brig (89,147,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:18.138] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "hey" (Brig (92,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:25.382] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "can we just" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:27.077] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "execute" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:28.772] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "he stunned me once" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:31.997] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "i need your approval" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:38.862] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "yeah" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:41.126] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "or" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:47:41.865] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gulag" (Brig (93,153,3))
[2021-11-10 04:58:26.819] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "no TEHRE ARE LINGS" (Central Primary Hallway (132,131,3))
[2021-11-10 04:58:28.984] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "i killed one" (Central Primary Hallway (132,131,3))
[2021-11-10 04:58:57.473] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "your hos????" (Port Tram Dock (96,124,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:10.739] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "cope" (Command Hallway (92,126,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:16.282] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "our hos doesnt know what heretics are" (Command Hallway (92,137,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:25.483] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gun" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:26.009] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gnu" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:26.295] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gun" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:26.714] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gun" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 05:00:14.784] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "s execute everyone with the virus" (Security Office (92,156,3))
[2021-11-10 05:01:16.150] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "hos" (Command Hallway (91,144,3))
[2021-11-10 05:01:18.387] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "help me gulag this one" (Brig (91,145,3))
[2021-11-10 05:01:36.146] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "cry" (Labor Shuttle Dock (73,160,3))
[2021-11-10 05:17:39.896] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "warden" (Brig (91,149,3))
[2021-11-10 05:17:41.442] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "i lost my baton" (Brig (91,149,3))
[2021-11-10 05:17:43.483] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "now i must kill myself" (Brig (91,149,3))
[2021-11-10 05:17:49.245] EMOTE: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Brig (91,149,3))
[2021-11-10 05:18:02.018] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) (DEAD) "who you" (Brig (87,148,3))
[2021-11-10 05:18:23.141] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) (DEAD) "i got bored" (Brig (85,147,3))
[2021-11-10 05:18:26.191] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) (DEAD) "i killed two people" (Brig (92,145,3))
[2021-11-10 05:19:41.304] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) (DEAD) "who bad" (Starboard Tram Dock (172,117,3))
none of these feel like explicit rule breaks, but they all give the impression of someone who is playing security purely to hunt down and kill or gulag people for whatever reasons they can find, which leads to one of the big conundrums of security: while the job is meant to be one where "valid hunting" is technically the whole point, there's a point where sec needs to be held to higher standards to ensure the game is actually enjoyable to play. your overall behavior this round felt like it was pushing a little past the line into aggressively finding reasons to go after people, and even on lrp there has to be some degree of restraint from sec lest every round turn into sec baton-searching everyone who even walks funny trying to find the tator tots

overall this note isn't meant to be a harsh punishment so much as just a suggestion for you to try to be a little less valid-hungry as sec, and i personally don't think there's any reason to remove it. i know notes have a bit of a stigma, but the only real reason one was given was just to put it on the record that you'd been talked about it, and nothing really more than that
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #619032

Please forgive the word mess i dont know how to specifically quote things aside from the marks.

I don't understand why my say logs have really anything to do with this whole appeal.


"the crux of the note is that the method of "finding reasons to arrest, take to brig and search people" you were using feels less like a reasonable level of suspicion and more of you going out of your way to find any and all means of locating valids"
If reasonable suspicious is infact reasonable then why can't I arrest/search them? As sec im always looking for SUS things its my job. Its also my job to protect the station from the valid salad.

"none of these feel like explicit rule breaks, but they all give the impression of someone who is playing security purely to hunt down and kill or gulag people for whatever reasons they can find, which leads to one of the big conundrums of security: while the job is meant to be one where "valid hunting" is technically the whole point, there's a point where sec needs to be held to higher standards to ensure the game is actually enjoyable to play. your overall behavior this round felt like it was pushing a little past the line into aggressively finding reasons to go after people, and even on lrp there has to be some degree of restraint from sec lest every round turn into sec baton-searching everyone who even walks funny trying to find the tator tots"

You don't know the context of the gulag so mentioning that is irrelevant. I never went past the line of bag checking every who walks funny. All of my bagchcks are either reasonable suspicous or you having something you shouldn't.


" but the only real reason one was given was just to put it on the record that you'd been talked about it"
"so i want to preface this by saying the note wasn't meant to be "you broke the rules" so much as it is "it feels like the way you're playing security is a bit overzealous and might lead into problems in the future"

"talked about it" Gives the impression that i was a rulebreak and ive been spoken to not to do it again.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #619033

If was pushing the line. Can you please tell me how? So I don't do it in the future.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #619036

I don't understand why my say logs have really anything to do with this whole appeal.
they were mostly just to give additional context to why i felt like it was worth bringing it up, since you come off as extremely aggressive compared to most sec
If reasonable suspicious is infact reasonable then why can't I arrest/search them? As sec im always looking for SUS things its my job. Its also my job to protect the station from the valid salad.
again, it was mostly in the context of how aggressive you'd been for the rest of the round; on top of that, there are a multitude of ways for someone to have a hardsuit that dont involve breaking or stealing. they might have just been left on the ground, or been given to them by an engineer
"talked about it" Gives the impression that i was a rulebreak and ive been spoken to not to do it again.
honestly i do wish it wasnt like that, i believe admins have talked among themselves recently as wanting to push for notes to just be for minor discussions about players, just so they can be pointed to for saying "yeah someone already brought it up"
If was pushing the line. Can you please tell me how? So I don't do it in the future.
im not much of a sec player but the best i can say is try to be a little more certain people are doing bad/suspicious things before going after them. just wearing a hardsuit isn't *that* big of a deal, and you can often pick up clues from the detective, the ai, or just other players calling on the radio. for example, earlier in that round you'd bag searched the cook because there was a heretic rune in the kitchen, which is a good example of having reason to suspect them
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #619037

Most of my say logs are just me fucking around saying like "GUNG UNG UNG GUNG UGNG UGN" over and over again while running around.

"again, it was mostly in the context of how aggressive you'd been for the rest of the round; on top of that, there are a multitude of ways for someone to have a hardsuit that dont involve breaking or stealing. they might have just been left on the ground, or been given to them by an engineer"

I reamber I talked to you about a comparison between the hardsuit and the stunbatong If I find it should i have it? Its a Departmental specific item that is difficult to come by. The same is said for a Eng hardsuit, its a departmental specific item thats hard to come by and doesn't belong to you.

"im not much of a sec player but the best i can say is try to be a little more certain people are doing bad/suspicious things before going after them. just wearing a hardsuit isn't *that* big of a deal, and you can often pick up clues from the detective, the ai, or just other players calling on the radio. for example, earlier in that round you'd bag searched the cook because there was a heretic rune in the kitchen, which is a good example of having reason to suspect them"

Once again its my job to enforce the law.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #619043

i guess what it ultimately comes down to is just trying to keep other players' experiences in mind and find a balance between upholding the law and not being overly aggressive super-serious aggrocop, if that makes any sense?
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #619044

Of course, but like said before I didn't run around randomly bag checking they either commited a crime/heretic rift etc.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #619062

ultimately i dont really have much else to add to this beyond what's been said, i just think you should try to be a little less eager to hunt as a seccie is all
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #619063

Maybe, but like mentioned many times before its my job to do so. I don't like the note cause inevitably ill fuck up and do something stupid and that note might be used against me.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by BeeSting12 » #619065

I was the HoS that round and I don't think much of what Paris Johnson was doing was out of line that round. He was pretty much the only one preventing changelings and heretics from walking all over us since all we had was the detective who had their kit stolen before I even joined, an acting captain RD, and a late join warden.

I recognize some of the logs ninjiilical posted, and they were taken out of context. It's unfair to take out of context logs and use them as justification for someone being "overly aggressive". To shed light on some of the ones I know about:
[2021-11-10 04:42:41.191] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "yes im very corrpt so corrupt i arrest people for stealing" (Central Tram Underpass (107,122,2))
[2021-11-10 04:43:11.019] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "what they do?" (Brig (89,147,3))
[2021-11-10 04:43:36.797] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "cope" (Brig (89,147,3))

this seems like obvious sarcasm to me ^^.

[2021-11-10 04:58:26.819] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "no TEHRE ARE LINGS" (Central Primary Hallway (132,131,3))
[2021-11-10 04:58:28.984] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "i killed one" (Central Primary Hallway (132,131,3))
[2021-11-10 04:58:57.473] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "your hos????" (Port Tram Dock (96,124,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:10.739] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "cope" (Command Hallway (92,126,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:16.282] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "our hos doesnt know what heretics are" (Command Hallway (92,137,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:25.483] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gun" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:26.009] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gnu" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:26.295] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gun" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 04:59:26.714] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "gun" (Security Office (90,160,3))
[2021-11-10 05:00:14.784] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "s execute everyone with the virus" (Security Office (92,156,3))
[2021-11-10 05:01:16.150] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "hos" (Command Hallway (91,144,3))
[2021-11-10 05:01:18.387] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "help me gulag this one" (Brig (91,145,3))
[2021-11-10 05:01:36.146] SAY: Somah69/(Paris Johnson) "cry" (Labor Shuttle Dock (73,160,3))

Paris was asking for guns from the armory since I said they would be given out to deal with changelings. I made a joke about the only cure to the virus being death which might give context to the virus line. I helped Paris gulag a mime who was assaulting people near the end, and I also said I don't know what heretics are in the sec comms (since I didn't), so that's what Paris is referencing there most likely.

In reference to the search/heretic Paris killed: from a roleplay perspective, it makes sense to arrest someone with a stolen hard suit, particularly one that is scarce on station. I'd say it's a pretty unsafe assumption to assume that someone was given such an item or "found" it on the ground. At very least a search would be in order to see what else they stole and get the full story about the hard suit. If anything, I'd consider ignoring minor crimes such as theft and just running around to callouts on comms and only stopping for obvious antag tells more of a validhunting thing than searching someone who stole a hardsuit.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #619209

at this point i feel pretty confident saying that if you still disagree with the note, we can pass this off to the headmins for a second opinion, since we're kind of running in circles at this point (also sorry for the late reply my sleep schedule is ass)
BeeSting12 wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:33 am stuff
i definitely appreciate the input, and it does put things into a bit of a better context, yeah. it's possible i'm wrong on this one and i won't be afraid to admit it if headmins disagree, but i still feel like it's fair to just put on a minor note
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by samahthewise69696 » #619212

I concur. can I leave this open for headadmins?
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #619213

samahthewise69696 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:23 am I concur. can I leave this open for headadmins?
sure, it might take a bit since iirc some of them are busy but they'll chime in when they get the chance
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by nianjiilical » #621199

after talking to the headmins and sleeping on this for a bit, we've agreed that focusing the note specifically on the hardsuit thing was probably a mistake, since as mentioned it is technically contraband. based on that i'm changing the note to the following, since i still think the overall behavior shown in this round was worth talking to and noting for:
During a round as a security officer, they arrested, searched and killed a non-engie heretic simply for wearing an engineering hardsuit. In the same round, they talked on sec comms about killing everyone who had a dangerous virus, and wanting to execute or gulag someone who stunned them once or twice. While their actions haven't been strictly against the rules, they've shown a consistent playstyle of being extremely aggressive and powergame-y as Security, with a seeming desire to maximize valids at the expense of other players' experiences. Were asked to show a little more discretion when playing security, and to try and tone down their aggression when it comes to finding valid kills.
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Re: Nianjiiical Somah69 - note appeal

Post by NamelessFairy » #621201

We think that the edited note better clarifies the reason this note was placed and we'll now be upholding it.

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NamelessFairy: Uphold
Dragomagol: Uphold
RaveRadbury: Uphold
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