[<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

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WeenMachine4003
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[<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #620527

BYOND account: WeenMachine4003
Character name: Doktur Explosion
Ban type: 7 day server ban, permanent role ban from the entire medical department, namely chemist
Ban reason: "You have absolutely no control when it comes to explosives, and you have had too many instances of self-antagging with explosive chems in a short period of time."
Time ban was placed: 2021-11-8 6:20:55
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 172697
Your side of the story: I disagree with everything stated in the ban reason, and I believe the ruling to be far too extreme. It's difficult to pin point the circumstances for which I was banned, for reasons I'll go into shortly, but I suspect it may be due to a run-in with the lavaland syndicate base. MrAlphonzo, the ruling admin, did not disclose the specifics regarding my ban, so I'm really just speculating here. Doing a bit of research, I found this post by sinfulbliss in the "tgstation-general" text channel in the tgstation official discord (exhibit 1, featured at the bottom of this page), describing an account of possible "self-antagging", for which I was the perpetrator. I believe this instance to be the catalyst for my role-restriction, but I may be wrong. In the round preceding my ban (round ID: 172695), I entered the syndicate base and got shot at by a syndicate agent, to which I retaliated by throwing bombs, which would maim and eventually kill him (exhibit 2). Unfortunately, sinfulbliss had this same idea, and in my infiltration, I had mistaken sinfulbliss for another syndicate agent (exhibit 3). I then threw a primed chemical grenade at sinfulbliss, killing him shortly after (exhibit 4). As I had run away from the explosion, I was not sure if the supposed syndicate agent was dead, so I threw one last chemical grenade off screen for safe measure. This grenade had unintentionally triggered the syndicate self-destruction device, destroying the lavaland base and killing everyone on board (exhibit 5 and 6).

Why you think you should be unbanned: I don't think this situation unfolded due to my lack of "control when it comes to explosives" or my tendency towards "self-antagging", as much as it was due to the nature of ss13 and the imperfect information players are working with. Given the circumstances, I believe my actions are quite reasonable, considering I was being shot at, and that sinfulbliss was holding syndicate gear. As for the destruction of the syndicate base, I believe it was unforeseeable and that the stray bomb that created the chain reaction was thrown in good faith. What has occurred has absolutely nothing to do with my player conduct, and let alone my chemistry conduct, and I'm confident that my play was well within the bounds of normal. The station blowing up is too far removed from my reasonable actions as chemist to be considered banworthy.

As for the implication that my behavior is problematic due to the repeat nature of my offenses, I would have to disagree. In my 125 hours of chemist, I had accumulated 2 explosion-relevant notes, both of which were quite distinct from each other. I won't go into too much detail about them here, but I think it is worth mentioning that in the 85 hours of play since the last note, I had never repeated either offense. I'd argue that it is unreasonable to suggest that I've had "too many instances of self-antagging", when my note history is this lackluster. I simply believe it is far too excessive to jump from a scarce amount of admin remarks and never being banned for in-game behavior to a permanent department-wide ban.

On top of this, MrAlphonzo did not notify me of why I was being banned or give me a chance to talk candidly about what he suspected I had done. There was no bwoink, and there was no explanation. This is unfair to me as a player, and I believe that the severity of the ban is a result of MrAlphonzo not going through the proper channels of investigation. I'm confident that if he did, he'd come to the same conclusion I've come to. To wrap this up, the accusations in the ban reason are verifiably untrue, and everything that went wrong in the round mentioned above is simply a product of unfortunate circumstance. I should not be held accountable for either the misunderstanding that got sinfulbliss killed, or the subsequent explosion that destroyed the station and killed one fellow crewmember, Ser Lout. I would also argue that it is unfair to base the ruling on the basis of my past history, due to how unsubstantiated the claim is. The evidence I have presented seems to overwhelmingly suggest that this ban should be reduced or overturned, and I believe that thoughtful reconsideration will lead to the same conclusion.

exhibit 1:
https://imgur.com/a/jbREwlk

exhibit 2:

Code: Select all

(5:48:45) toastgoats/(Donald Newton) has fired at [floor] with 9mm bullet from Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway
(5:48:46) toastgoats/(Donald Newton) has shot WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: 100)
(5:48:46) toastgoats/(Donald Newton) has fired at [firelock] with 9mm bullet from Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway
(5:48:48) toastgoats/(Donald Newton) has fired at [floor] with 9mm bullet from Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway
(5:48:48) WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) has thrown the chemical grenade (Doktur Explosion Special v2.0)
(5:48:48) toastgoats/(Donald Newton) has shot WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) with 9mm bullet (NEWHP: 79)
[2021-11-08 05:48:58.655] WHISPER: toastgoats/(Donald Newton) "Shid" (Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (147,75,5))
[2021-11-08 05:48:58.658] EMOTE: toastgoats/(Donald Newton) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (147,75,5))

exhibit 3: I did not see Axle Brady kill the syndicate operative with his e-sword, but I believe this should prove that he had syndicate weaponry and that it wasn't too unreasonable to mistake Axle Brady for a syndicate operative given the circumstances.

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(5:49:05) SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has attacked *no key*/(Leroy Griffiths) with energy sword (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -193.7)
exhibit 4:

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(5:49:50) WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) has thrown the chemical grenade (Doktur Explosion Special v2.0)
(5:49:50) WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) has threw and hit SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) with the chemical grenade (Doktur Explosion Special v2.0) (NEWHP: 60)
(5:49:51) SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has died (BRUTE: 148.8, BURN: 88.7, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)
exhibit 5:

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[2021-11-08 05:49:49.610] GAME: WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) primed a chemical grenade (Doktur Explosion Special v2.0) at Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (135,73,5) containing: (Teslium bottle 1 : Teslium, 6); (RDX bottle 2 : RDX, 6);. (Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (135,73,5))
[2021-11-08 05:49:50.846] GAME: Explosion with size (1, 2, 4, 0) in (Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (136,74,5)).
[2021-11-08 05:49:50.895] GAME: Explosion with size (5, 10, 20, 20) in (Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (134,76,5)).  Possible cause: the large bomb payload.
[2021-11-08 05:49:53.464] EMOTE: Aoeeee/(Ser Lout) seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless... (Syndicate Lavaland Dormitories (138,72,5))
[2021-11-08 05:50:22.343] EMOTE: WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Syndicate Lavaland Primary Hallway (142,79,5))
exhibit 6:
https://imgur.com/a/b6MypM6
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by MrAlphonzo » #620558

Were you aware that other people were raiding the syndicate base before you started tossing explosives?
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #620572

I had absolutely no clue any crewmembers were on board the syndicate station.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by MrAlphonzo » #620594

And how did you get into the syndicate outpost?
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What fucking planet are you living on
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #620626

It all started with a guy named "The Final Boss". He started talking about a big fight, and I figured it was worth checking out. I brought some heavy-duty explosives, and went off to find "The Final Boss".

Code: Select all

[2021-11-08 05:40:35.867] GAME: mrjafar/(Angelo Raub) has forged the agent card with name "The Final Boss", occupation "Swiss cheese" and trim "Syndicate Operative".
[2021-11-08 05:42:04.093] SAY: mrjafar/(Angelo Raub) "Nerds" (Syndicate Lavaland Engineering (152,62,5))
[2021-11-08 05:42:10.491] SAY: mrjafar/(Angelo Raub) "IN LAVALAND" (Syndicate Lavaland Engineering (154,62,5))
[2021-11-08 05:42:15.336] SAY: mrjafar/(Angelo Raub) "COME FIGHT!!" (Syndicate Lavaland Engineering (153,62,5))
[2021-11-08 05:43:00.837] SAY: WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) "I&#39;m coming for you final boss" (Mining Shuttle (236,162,12))
I then found the white ship parked in lavaland. I thought I had found the final boss, but there were only some consoles and a few borgs hanging around. I asked the borgs, and one pointed me in the right direction.

Code: Select all

[2021-11-08 05:46:18.485] SAY: WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) "Where&#39;s the final boss?" (Abandoned Ship (102,15,5))
[2021-11-08 05:46:24.227] SAY: datorangebottle/(TideBot 9000) "They are probably at the syndicate base." (Abandoned Ship (101,16,5))
[2021-11-08 05:46:31.760] SAY: WeenMachine4003/(Doktur Explosion) "You know where that is?" (Abandoned Ship (99,15,5))
[2021-11-08 05:47:01.202] SAY: datorangebottle/(TideBot 9000) "Do you know where Hierophant is?" (Abandoned Ship (101,10,5))
[2021-11-08 05:47:14.884] SAY: datorangebottle/(TideBot 9000) "directly south of there." (Abandoned Ship (101,14,5))
I then followed the directions until I found a small path of plating constructed over a lava lake. I followed this path until I reached the doors of the syndicate shuttle. I walked around a bit, then I started getting shot at, which is where my first post picks up from.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by MrAlphonzo » #620637

Couple of things. First, as for not sending you a ticket:
I picked up the ticket making a complaint against you when the round where it happened was ending, as there were no staff online when it was initially submitted, so it sat there for awhile. Server reboots, and you weren't in the server. Round starts, and I still don't see you in the server. By the time you latejoined I had already finished investigating and was typing up the ban reason, and didn't notice that you reconnected. And I know I couldn't find your player panel, because I can see in the logs that I opened my own player panel to get to your notes.

As for your record:

You were reprimanded for abusing explosives, three times, in a ten day period.
That is stupid.

For the ban itself and why I'm not lifting it:
There was an existing path leading to the lavaland base. That means, definitively, people went into it. I checked your logs, and you started chucking explosives before bothering to check in-person/over the radio if any friendlies were still in there.
You didn't get one person killed. You got three people killed. A miner, a cyborg, and the head of security.
By your own admission, the last grenade you threw, being the one that blew the place to hell and back, was completely unnecessary, and you threw it "just to be sure."

The fact that you think you did nothing wrong shows you have learned absolutely nothing, and I have no intention of even reducing this ban.

In short, this appeal is denied.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #620656

This is a lot to unpack.
I checked your logs, and you started chucking explosives before bothering to check in-person/over the radio if any friendlies were still in there.
When I entered the syndicate base, I was immediately shot at by a syndicate agent. I think this is reason enough to start throwing bombs, and the bombs were set up so that there wouldn't be much collateral damage. They had a one second timer and 1 tile devastation range, meaning they could only reasonably kill one person at a time. It was hardly reckless, I threw 3 grenades on the station and I directly killed two people with the grenades. I did not throw bombs senselessly, and I think these explosions were fairly calculated. That said, I think it's absolutely unreasonable to expect me to predict that my small 1 devastation grenades could've possibly triggered the syndicate self-destruct device and killed everyone on board. As for killing the HOS, I did directly hit him with one of my grenades, and I take full responsibility. I simply saw him holding syndicate weaponry, and in the heat of the moment I threw 2 chemical grenades at him, which killed him. It was unfortunate, but I also think it was justifiable. I'm not saying it was right, but given the information I had, I acted quickly. To actually address your suggestion, I don't think checking in for crewmembers over the radio would've solved the issue at any level, since killing the HOS was a simple mistake and the rest of the crewmembers were killed by the large unintentional explosion. I also think it's unfair to suggest not checking was a sign of any mal-intent or recklessness. I came in composed, and after I got shot at, it took me about 3 seconds of bag shuffling before I threw that bomb at the guy shooting me. It's just, I think being shot at voids a lot of precaution, and I also think loftier expectations in situations like these are simply unreasonable. As for the syndicate self-destruct device going off and killing the borg and miner, it was really unfortunate, but also completely unpredictable. Making an attempt for communication would not have helped in this situation, and I don't think it's fair to hold non-communication against me, given the circumstances.
By your own admission, the last grenade you threw, being the one that blew the place to hell and back, was completely unnecessary, and you threw it "just to be sure."
The last grenade I threw wasn't some haphazard bomb toss for destruction's sake; I threw the last two grenades within a second of each other, at the same person. I'm not even sure the third grenade did anything, the timestamps suggest it could've been the second grenade which triggered the station self-destruct device. The third grenade was unnecessary, true, but that is only in hindsight. In the moment I wasn't even sure I had killed the syndicate agent before me, making my third grenade, thrown with split second reaction, contextually necessary. It's unfair to suggest I wanted to throw this bomb to just to explode things, when I actually threw it just to eliminate a single target, with little time to react. I think it was perfectly logical to throw that third bomb, given the circumstances, and I think it's unfair to suggest that the grenade was thrown for anything other than self-preservation.
You didn't get one person killed. You got three people killed. A miner, a cyborg, and the head of security.
This is unarguably true, and I think it's important that I step up and apologize for what transgressed. It was truly unfortunate, and I would honestly not like for something like this to happen again. I also think I should take this time to analyze the terms of the punishment. As it is, I killed a single crewmember and accidently set off a bomb that killed a person and a borg. If all my paragraphs of justification are set aside for the moment, this is the core of the situation. A normal unjustifiable ban is 24 hours, and I have given mounds of justification, but putting that aside, I think it may be worth asking why I'm being punished so severely for what might otherwise be a 3-day. I'd still appeal that ban, don't get me wrong, but I think it may be worth taking a step back to really try and justify how I deserve to never touch any medical position ever again because of this incident.
You were reprimanded for abusing explosives, three times, in a ten day period.
There is some truth to this statement, but I think it's worth taking a deeper look. All of three of the grievances that occurred 11-days within each other are all medium level notes and I'd argue are quite distinct from each other. A couple months ago, I admittedly had a bit of a hot-streak with the admins. The first of these notes was initially a 24-hour ban, and it's quite silly. I won't go into it here, but I didn't include it in the count in my initial post because even the appeal forum turns it into a bit of a joke by the end viewtopic.php?f=34&t=29885&p=614235&hil ... on#p614235. As for the other two, they are much more concrete in their stances, and I think they were quite formative in my conduct relating to explosives. The first one is explained fairly well down below, and I fully agree with this ruling. No one was killed, and it was really just a message drawing a line in the sand around escalation, and I'm glad nothing more than a note came from it. As for the second incident, it was a bit more complex than just blowing things up for no good reason, and it had to do with handing out grenades to crewmembers. The admin ruling was very reasonable, and I became I lot more careful with whom I shared my bombs with. You can read the notes below, but the main message I wanted to drive home was how I've really proven that I'm more than capable of learning from my mistakes, and that I've never repeated any of these offenses.

"as a non antagonist chef, set off a bomb inside engineering because of a supposed conflict between the departments- one that he lacked the details to. promised to avoid resorting to bombing for stuff like this in the future" 2021-09-12 05:41:02 | Sybil | Round 169452 | O0cyann0o | 416h Living Playtime

"As a non antagonist chemist, left multiple small RDX and Teslium grenades in the medbay lobby, intending for them to be used against an antagonist actively destroying the station. If you're going to arm the crew you have to make sure the right people get them and that the antagonists you're trying to fight can't just walk up and grab the bombs themselves. Was understanding when spoken to about the issue." 2021-09-18 05:02:17 | Sybil | Round 169799 | Dezupher | 423h Living Playtime

I don't think it's fair to say that I was abusing explosives in any of these notes, but I certainly wasn't responsible with them. This need for responsibility is something that I'm still maneuvering around, but I think I do a solid job. I play a lot of space station, and getting only two real explosion related notes is something I take pride in. It's just, I think the ruling admin here is blowing this a bit out of proportion. It's just a bit unfair to group these as 3 explosive-abusing self-antag rounds in 10-days and imply that I am a frequent abuser of explosives, when there's actually a bit more to it. I think it's worth making it extremely clear that these are the only 3 admin notes involving explosives period, over the entire course of my playtime, which totals to around 515 hours nowadays. The ten-day clustering of incidents is unfortunate, but I think it's unfair these notes off as just frequently "abusing explosives", when they're all very distinct, even from the note being disputed right now. Sure, they all involve explosives, but they're each accompanied with wildly different contexts and intentions, which I think makes pinning me as a simple repeat offender is unfair, especially considering how few notes there are over such a vast period of play.
There was an existing path leading to the lavaland base. That means, definitively, people went into it.
I mean, maybe. I don't think it's worth nitpicking this too much, but I you're right, it should have occurred to me that innocent people could've built the bridge. I personally thought it was the syndicate agents, but in hindsight, it would make sense that crewmembers built the bridge. If I was more knowledgeable, I would've known that only rcds can build over lava, and syndicate research bases don't have rcds, so there must be people on board. It's just, this line of questioning dodges the problem. I thought the HOS was a syndicate operative, so I mistakenly killed him. I didn't think he was a crewmember, and knowing if there were crewmembers on board wouldn't have changed my course of action, since as I noted earlier, these bombs are very small and precise, which is why I didn't think anyone not next to where I was throwing the bombs was at risk. However, this last bomb throw did manage to kill every crewmember on board in a freak accident. That is, I still would've thrown that last grenade even if I knew crewmembers were on board, because I could not have reasonably predicted that by throwing the last grenade, the entire station would've blown up, and suggesting otherwise is absurd.
The fact that you think you did nothing wrong shows you have learned absolutely nothing, and I have no intention of even reducing this ban.
I don't think this is a problem of not learning my lesson. I've done a lot of analysis on every single action I took in the minute that transpired from me entering the syndicate base, to me blowing it up. I just don't think there's a single disagreeable action in the entire sequence. I still don't know what I should've done differently, and running through your closing statement, all that I've gathered is that I should've taken more precaution to make sure there were crewmembers on board and that I should've been less gung ho. Both I strongly disagree with, and I think I've made my case for why. I hope this closing message possibly shifted your view on what transpired, and I appreciate you taking the time to look through the situation more closely.

In short, I want a headmin review.

P.S. I never addressed your side of the ticket issue, but I think it's worth noting, that I wouldn't want the lack of ticket accounted for in the final headmin review. Everything I wanted to say, I've said, and I think it's just unfortunate that it wasn't settled in bwoinks.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by MrAlphonzo » #620665

WeenMachine4003 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:47 pm and knowing if there were crewmembers on board wouldn't have changed my course of action,
I personally wouldn't throw grenades into a building, loaded end to end with explosives, if I was aware there were other crew members in there.

I take back what I said earlier. You haven't just learned nothing. You've somehow evolved backwards.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #620692

The base has one self-destruct device, as far as I'm aware, and it's hidden in a secret room. I wouldn't have done it the same way knowing that the self-destruct device could've been triggered, but I think it's completely unreasonable to expect me to know there's a self-destruct device, know the location, and know about this interaction, all so I could play around it about. I also want to say that these aren't just random explosives, I urge you go into a server and use the test bomb radius admin tool, and see how small a 4,2,1 explosion is. I threw three of those bombs the entire time, all of which I threw at people I assumed to be syndicate agents.
I personally wouldn't throw grenades into a building, loaded end to end with explosives, if I was aware there were other crew members in there.
Now if that's what I happened, I would have to agree, but this completely ignores every bit of evidence I've brought forth. Knowing that there were crewmembers couldn't have possibly have affected my actions, because the real devastation that occurred was a result of some freak interaction between explosions and syndicate self-destruct devices. No amount of contextual information would have stopped me from not knowing about this interaction and playing around it, and I think it's unfair to fixate on me not realizing crewmembers were on board, when there's simply no reason to suggest it would've changed any part of the interaction.

I think this woefully misrepresents the sequence of events, when the evidence suggests that the situation was actually a result of a freak accident, and that within the bounds of normal play, I showed remarkable restraint.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by Donpedrito » #620701

Sorry if this is a peanut, but if I understand it correctly, the lavaland base has explosive walls in order to ensure that the self-destruct device destroys the entire station; the lavaland agents are specifically warned not to test explosives in their testing room for this reason. In other words, an explosion anywhere on the station is likely to destroy it, even if it isn’t close to the self-destruct device. No comment on whether this has any effect on the appeal as I don’t know whether it does, just wanted to make that info clear as there seems to be some confusion.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by WeenMachine4003 » #620736

Donpedrito wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:05 am the lavaland base has explosive walls in order to ensure that the self-destruct device destroys the entire station; the lavaland agents are specifically warned not to test explosives in their testing room for this reason. In other words, an explosion anywhere on the station is likely to destroy it, even if it isn’t close to the self-destruct device.
Thank you for clearing this up, I'm afraid I wasn't aware of this when I made my initial posts. I figured that my grenade had directly hit the self-destruct device, but it seems more likely that the explosion hit a wall, which triggered the device and even more walls. Since this information has been brought to light, I think it may be worth reconsidering some aspects of my appeal. It seems that the station blowing up was not a freak accident, but a plain consequence of throwing explosives in the syndicate base. For this I am truly regretful. I misread the situation, and I was frankly not aware of this mechanic. I appreciate you taking the time to clear this up, and I think this clarifies the ban reasoning a lot more.

I'm afraid that a great deal of my arguments were predicated on the understanding that my chemical grenade had an astronomical chance of blowing up the syndicate base, when in reality it was almost a guarantee. I should've known better, and with how much experience I have as a player, I understand that the expectations of me are higher, and I'd like to take a moment to apologize for my actions. I didn't know about this mechanic, and every single crewmember who died in the incident, I want to say that I am directly responsible, and I think they deserve an apology.

That said, I still want to go forward with this appeal process. I still believe the ban length is too extreme, but I understand how irresponsible it would seem to throw 3 grenades into a base "loaded end to end with explosives" and subsequently deny it. I didn't know that the walls were explosive, and that all it took was one errant explosive for the station to go down. I would never have done this knowing the actual risk, and I am deeply sorry for my actions. Yet, I do want to learn from my mistakes, and I don't think a permanent ban on every medical position gives me the chance to do so.

Once again, thanks for reaching out on this. It seems I was unaware of the true nature of the situation, and I'm glad that this could be cleared up.
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Re: [<MrAlphonzo>] WeenMachine4003 - Doktur Explosion's Chemistry Permaban

Post by MrAlphonzo » #620751

WeenMachine4003 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:09 am I should've known better
Would've lifted this days ago if you'd said this from the start.
And I am lifting it.
Just don't do stupid shit with explosives again.
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wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
oranges wrote:
Misdoubtful wrote:We're all friends here.
What fucking planet are you living on
oranges wrote: i'm not taking advice from a bottom bitch
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