[sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders [note appeal]

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Laz0rgrunt
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:09 am
Byond Username: Laz0r

[sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders [note appeal]

Post by Laz0rgrunt » #620662

BYOND account: Laz0r
Character name: Isea Yupee
Ban type: Jobban, Security roles
Ban length: 7 days
Ban reason: Overly aggressive as security despite being warned earlier in the round only to use lethal measures as a last resort. The overescalation led to the deaths of four engineers assisted by two other security officers that were following his lead and have been warned aswell. Security ban given for a week.
Time ban was placed: 2021-11-28 15:14:05
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 173835
Your side of the story:
What I remember happening is that CJ was put on wanted for harm batoning the QM as CE. I tried to make the arrest in engineering lobby and multiple other engineers attacked me on that accord. Eventually Swamp Water prevailed over me and other officers and stole our weapons. Throughout the round Swamp Water and CJ kept attacking officers outside of engineering, resisting arrest, and at one point even tried to get into the Brig, to which I got them to leave.

I then set out with another officer to arrest them and the same scenario repeated inside of the engineering lobby, except this time CJ tried fullstripping me and throwing me out of engineering lobby to which I authorized them to be executed after all the trouble they caused.

In total, Swamp Water, Ceejay Ajay were killed on account of all the griefing they were doing, and the atmos tech who I think is named "Metacrisia Pastellina" was executed for helping CJ and Swamp. Another engineer was mistaken for the three griefers I mentioned previously and I had them taken by a paramedic.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
Daytona in lack of wisdom failed to see that these two people were constantly harassing security, stealing weapons and sec gear, and just generally being griefers. They were both caught at least once but let go by the HoS, myself, and possibly other officers. Push came to shove and they eventually tested my limits and I deemed them worthy of execution. Nothing in my conduct was "overaggressive" as Daytona claimed as these two had many chances to give up their griefing and just surrender themselves and the stolen weaponry, and given how security had been bombed at that point there was credible reason for them to be executed due to the nature of the emergency.


Anything else we should know: Escalation permits the actions I took given the context of their crimes and the station's status. Likewise, space law (meaningless as it is) considers their crimes to be a capital crime of mutiny on account of them starting riots, thereby justifying their execution. I apologize that the fourth innocent (at least I think he was innocent) was put into hard-crit, but I made sure he was taken care of.

P.P.S.: I apologize to you daytona for calling you a retard in ahelp, I was severly agitated at the time and I should not have taken it out on you despite your misunderstanding of the situation
Last edited by Laz0rgrunt on Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sweet Daytona
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 8:49 pm
Byond Username: Sweet Daytona

Re: [sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders

Post by Sweet Daytona » #620866

Hi, thanks for appealing.

I'll try to give a brief run down of the situation as I saw it and remember it, from start to finish as this was a complicated mess of a round.
• The QM had stolen CEs ID for a joke and threw it somewhere
• The CE told Command that his department wouldn't be working until security resolved the situation, before starting a peaceful protest with picket signs outside the brig
• Security disperse the protest and end up arresting protesters; which was unjust in their eyes as they hadn't done any wrongdoing by exercising their right to protest
•Actual antags in the round begin to incite violence by bombing immediate areas around the brig.
• While the HoS tries to maintain order at the brig in a non-violent manner you take it upon yourself to capture and question those involved.
• The security team led by yourself continue to pursue engineering into their department to arrest them.
• Security are beaten twice by engineering as they resist arrest in their own department (Disarmed non-lethally without harm besides two kicks in total).
• During the second altercation security overpowers engineering and beats engineers to death at which point you tell medical not to revive them.
This last point is the only part I have an issue with.

That's a TL;DR of the events during that round relevant to your situation.
Many things were made very clear to me from a very early stage far before the engineers were killed. Prior to the events in engineering you beat another crew member into crit while they were protesting outside the brig, which I felt the need to tell in you a in PM not to murder them, to which you replied; "fuck off they were stealing weapons and impeding arrest" and "this isn't manuel retard all of engineering was trying to attack us".
And to clarify, this "attack" was them disarming you of your baton and disabler during an attempted arrest and kicked once by another engineer, at this point I can tell you have a poor grasp of your emotions and I decide to keep an eye on you specifically as events unfold. A long game of cat and mouse continues as the engineers evade you throughout the station to reconvene in the engineering foyer, you call for help with intent to kill, convincing two other officers of the threat the engineers posed. "we're going to kill that engineer", ""SHITTERS WEST OF BRIG KOS ASAP", "I am nonetheless going to beat them","KILL THEM", "THEY KEEP TAKING OUR WEAPONS AND STELAIGN FROM US", "the HOS did not want us to do this", "Do not revive them". Once engineering was overpowered, you and two other officers killed all four engineers, justified by them harmlessly disarming and defending themselves in their department, then essentially round removed three of them by denying their revival. I'd also like to include that I interviewed all 8 people involved in the events leading up to this and it all pointed to one clear instigator.

Although many rules were bent this round by griefers in your eyes, I saw them as an opportunity for an interesting situation which could have been resolved an enormous number of ways. Your over aggression singlehanded ended any chances of that, as no attempt to negotiate was made with the suspect party, putting an end to what could have been a far more interesting round. Everyone else bar a couple others (Who I also bwoinked) operated within the rules allowing for this story to run it's natural course. As a security officer it is your duty to serve the crew of the station and to resolve conflict with MINIMAL NECCESSARY FORCE, however all I'm seeing is someone who lacks the maturity to deal with it in a manner that is conducive to a fun round for all involved. By that logic removing you from security roles would improve the round quality for all involved. It is not your purpose to find any excuse to make spacemen horizontal for looking at you the wrong way.

No I will not consider lifting the ban. Your unapologetic tone and lack of empathy further cements by beliefs, and I am starting to think would be better off without you here at all. Excuse my hastily written response.
Laz0rgrunt
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:09 am
Byond Username: Laz0r

Re: [sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders

Post by Laz0rgrunt » #620925

I've chosen to take apart what you've written as you have portrayed me in an unfairly antagonistic light to justify banning me from a job I am very fair in. I feel it necessary to preface this by saying that Security policy rule three, as well as escalation all justify my actions given the antagonistic and hostile behavior of the four engineers that round, and in particular Ceejay and Swamp, and how many times they were given chances to cease such behaviour. I did not abuse these rules in a poor-faith manner as some security players do, executing people for walking into the armoury or the Captain's office.

I have included chronologically correct logs proving at least some of what I am saying, and justifying the execution of the engineers.(of whom I now learned the fourth engineer, Harvey, was actually involved in the fighting too, justifying his death as well.)
► Show Spoiler
Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmPrior to the events in engineering you beat another crew member into crit while they were protesting outside the brig, which I felt the need to tell in you a in PM not to murder them, to which you replied; "fuck off they were stealing weapons and impeding arrest" and "this isn't manuel retard all of engineering was trying to attack us".And to clarify, this "attack" was them disarming you of your baton and disabler during an attempted arrest and kicked once by another engineer, at this point I can tell you have a poor grasp of your emotions and I decide to keep an eye on you specifically as events unfold.

I don't remember beating any protesters, but I assure you if I did beat them it was because they were mutinous and either armed or looking to be armed by attacking officers and stealing weapons. I definitely did not round remove anyone outside the Brig either.

Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmA long game of cat and mouse continues as the engineers evade you throughout the station to reconvene in the engineering foyer, you call for help with intent to kill, convincing two other officers of the threat the engineers posed. "we're going to kill that engineer", ""SHITTERS WEST OF BRIG KOS ASAP", "I am nonetheless going to beat them","KILL THEM", "THEY KEEP TAKING OUR WEAPONS AND STELAIGN FROM US", "the HOS did not want us to do this", "Do not revive them".
Untrue and everything here is way out of context. The reality is that they weren't "evading me throughout the station to reconvene in the engineering foyer" but were yet again fighting with an officer in port-bow maintenance and eventually ended up stunning him in prisoner transfer in such a manner that logs indicate that they were not trying to escape but rather aggressing upon the Officer who was trying to escape. I soon after found them in brig maintenance trying to break into the brig.


I will address the quotes. The first quote is from after I rescued the officer from the prisoner transfer center, a reasonable response given how much those two had been taking advantage of security. the second is after I spotted CJ and Swamp trying to break into the brig from port-bow maintenance. Third is from the HoS telling me not to kill them after I reported their attempted brig break-in. fourth and fifth were after CJ and Swamp got taken down at the climax of the situation. Sixth was merely for roleplay reasons, and happened after the engineering team was executed. I did not care if the HoS knew or not.

Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmOnce engineering was overpowered, you and two other officers killed all four engineers, justified by them harmlessly disarming and defending themselves in their department, then essentially round removed three of them by denying their revival.
Everything in that statement is correct except that instead of "harmlessly disarming and defending themselves in their department" they were resisting arrest, impeding arrests, stealing weapons, and in the case of Ceejay and Swamp, actively attacking security. Harvey and the moth atmos tech shared the guilt of Ceejay and Swamp's crime merely by abetting them and not allowing for them to be arrested without attacking officers first and stealing their weapons, something they did multiple times.

Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmAlthough many rules were bent this round by griefers in your eyes, I saw them as an opportunity for an interesting situation which could have been resolved an enormous number of ways.Your over aggression singlehanded ended any chances of that, as no attempt to negotiate was made with the suspect party, putting an end to what could have been a far more interesting round.
The only solution that would have realistically played out is Security gave up and engineering got to keep their free weapons. Security was already too overwhelmed with the brig's bombing and other antagonists to engage in any interesting RP like you infer may have been possible.

Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmEveryone else bar a couple others (Who I also bwoinked) operated within the rules allowing for this story to run it's natural course.
It would seem like you're trying to scapegoat me when in reality the other officers involved did not much care for the lives of the engineers who were a constant problem, or else they would have just handcuffed them when I ordered the engineers to die. One of them even asked me if we were going to hunt them down, and was glad at the prospect of getting Ceejay. I was not the only one fed up with their behaviour.

Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmAs a security officer it is your duty to serve the crew of the station and to resolve conflict with MINIMAL NECCESSARY FORCE, however all I'm seeing is someone who lacks the maturity to deal with it in a manner that is conducive to a fun round for all involved.
Security policy rule 3 justifies my actions as does escalation. Many attempts were made for nonlethal arrests, and yet they continued to prove themselves unwilling to be co-operative and refrain from antagonistic behaviour throughout the round.

Sweet Daytona wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:19 pmBy that logic removing you from security roles would improve the round quality for all involved. It is not your purpose to find any excuse to make spacemen horizontal for looking at you the wrong way.
It would for the engineers, who without me organizing against them would have likely gotten away with taking advantage of lesser skilled players playing security that round. If anything I improved the round for the rest of my team so that they could refocus on protecting the crew instead of squabbling with a greytiding engineering department. Like I mentioned, they were given chances to drop the poor behaviour.
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Sweet Daytona
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 8:49 pm
Byond Username: Sweet Daytona

Re: [sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders

Post by Sweet Daytona » #620998

While some of what you’ve said is true, I’ve already looked through all of your logs and there is far more against than for your case, during all of this “fighting” your health never dropped below 90, and the resistance stops as soon as you are disarmed, they did not strip or cuff you. Besides this your handful of cherry picked points doesn’t make up for the main issue at large. These players acted in self-preservation for minor violations, which were spurred on by your pursuit.
It is not difficult to understand their motives in the given situation and assess them as a none threat. Your execution of them is based on their natural resistance to an unfair arrest driven to their department which never went beyond disarming and stunning. It’s fair to assume that if you hadn’t persisted as hard as you did the engineers wouldn’t have either.
You yourself recognised the pettiness of their actions and yet continued to push the issue to sate your ego, desperate for justification.

Seek headmin review if you aren’t satisfied. I’d appreciate differing perspectives of any other admins on this one due to my lax attitude on hardline rules. :happy:
Laz0rgrunt
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:09 am
Byond Username: Laz0r

Re: [sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders

Post by Laz0rgrunt » #621034

That would be for the best. EDIT: clarifying this in hindsight, in that I would like head admin intervention in this appeal.
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tattle
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:04 pm
Byond Username: Dragomagol

Re: [sweetdaytona]Laz0r - banned for killing persistent tiders [note appeal]

Post by tattle » #622497

Hello! Apologies for the delay in response. We've gone through the logs for the engineering and security teams, which can be not-so-briefly summarized:

- The CE (Ceejay) and QM fight, leading to the CE losing their ID.

- The CE is set to arrest,
► Show Spoiler
- and then announces engineering is going on strike.
► Show Spoiler
- Security wordlessly attempts to arrest the CE, and gets overpowered by the engineering department.

- You lose your disabler from the shoves from Harvey (engineer), and end up getting stunned by Swamp's stun baton, which is where you bash them with the fire extinguisher.
► Show Spoiler
- The HoS (Sophia) tells you off for being aggressive.
► Show Spoiler
- Swamp is gulagged and Metacrisia is given brig time. Both are released from the brig.
- You end up by arresting the CE, and finally interview them about the scuffle in cargo
► Show Spoiler
- After a not very constructive brig time, the CE gets his ID back, has a shoving match in the brig, and announces that he will be cutting power to security.
► Show Spoiler
- Canelo runs into engineering cutting power in maint, attempts to flashbang them.
► Show Spoiler
- Eventually they separate again, which is when you say
► Show Spoiler
- The CE and the rest of engineering continue to depower sec via maint, which is when you unload lethals on them.
► Show Spoiler
- You report the encounter to the HoS, who tells you explicitly not to kill them.
► Show Spoiler
- Engineering makes it back to their department, where they prepare for a raid by security
► Show Spoiler
- Security is bombed
► Show Spoiler
- Security breaks into engineering; it's a reasonably even fight of shoving and stunning for a while, and this is the only time that any of the engineers attempts to strip sec of their weapons.
► Show Spoiler
- Canelo suggests murder, and you agree
► Show Spoiler
- You and Canelo kill Swamp, Metacrisia, and Ceejay, nearly killing Harvey.

- This is when the fight goes to lethals, and 3 of the 4 engineers are denied revival by you.
► Show Spoiler
Full logs here: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-173835/

In Conclusion:
You showed repeated overaggression towards a department who was interfering non-lethally by cutting your power. You were warned earlier in the round by Daytona and by your boss the Head of Security to be less violent, and instead you conducted a raid on engineering where several players were removed permanently from the round due to your actions. This isn't the kind of behaviour we want to see from security players, and this note/ban will be upheld.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Uphold
NamelessFairy: Uphold
RaveRadbury: Uphold
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