[Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

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kieth4
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[Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by kieth4 » #624201

Byond account: kieth4
Character name: Lukas Beedell
Ban type: Job ban.
Ban Length: Week ban
Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Chief Medical Officer, Medical Doctor, Paramedic, Chemist, Virologist for 1 week - As a CMO in round 176250, picked a fight with the Quartermaster about them cancelling orders, in which they used a compact defib against sec officers. This then escalated into a demotion by the captain, and the killing of more sec officers

Time this ban was placed: 18:18:15
Sever you were playing when banned: Terry.
Your side of the story: As a preface even if the ban and note remain I’m here to argue that the note doesn’t accurately represent the situation that occurred there. Let’s break this up into different parts.
“picked a fight with the Quartermaster about them cancelling orders, in which they used a compact defib against sec officers.”
Speaking about the cargo escalation, cargo has no reason to deny orders from tablets private buying on the private budget. There is absolutely 0 reason to do so, this became such an issue during the round that the captain even sent a message to centcom regarding it.

https://imgur.com/E3kykzz

This happened to me from the medical budget and apparently the CE and hop too too

https://imgur.com/a/ZZI7DiF


Looking at the logs here I was only able to find the logs of a pizza order that I got when I went to check on my crates, now- this could have been a bug maybe or I just don’t know where it was logged. Cargo in a whole were being assholes that shift. Regardless, I made my way over to cargo to check for my crates. I start beeping the door, a techie tells me to fuck off.

https://imgur.com/a/RFgvJoP

I respond that I need in for medical stuff.

https://imgur.com/a/z2YmOVP

The person that I was with starts hitting the window as we hadn’t been let in yet and gets called a ‘ligger’.

https://imgur.com/a/zrO5H47

We’re all aware of the equivalent of that phrase, getting called a Ligger did not calm the situation at all and began the conflict with me screaming. “Racial SLUR?” As far as I’m aware slurring also makes you valid for escalation, you can’t slur at someone and then when the situation gets worse ask sec for help.

https://imgur.com/a/gIUOgqM

This began a conflict against the seccie in which I defended myself using the tele baton and defib which is essentially a baton.
At one point we had them stunned and didn’t attack further, instead, we continued an attempt to get inside of cargo as that was our goal before being slurred out.
More sec came, I was getting kicked to death by the Ben Snow lad, who happened to be the QM and I deathgasped. I think the escalation here is valid, crates kept getting denied and the situation would’ve been calmer had he opened the door or not called my companion a Ligger. I got taken to brig, revived and this is fine and not an issue. I’m unsure of why the note mentions this as if the situation wasn’t fine and was me specifically picking a fight with the QM.

The next part occurred in brig.
“This then escalated into a demotion by the captain”
I was taken to the brig here, revived then stuffed into a cell. Once again? It’s fine, it’s all ic and ok.
The captain reasons that I should be demoted for defibbing a lot of people. The majority of this was in self defence but I took no issue with it. This however never went through and didn’t happen, so I don’t feel it relevant. Although the captain said a couple of words about demotion, he never did it. Thus the lack of it in logs and when I leave brig it doesn't get mentioned again really.

https://imgur.com/a/Xs73Pci

https://imgur.com/a/tjC8nZc

I get revived and put in the cell.

https://imgur.com/a/undar9l

I further explain what was happening here but neglect to mention the medical crates as they honestly didn’t matter at this point and I think in my frustration I had forgotten about them.

https://imgur.com/a/EDZkMKa

https://imgur.com/a/uy6XqCI

https://imgur.com/a/xF6ANlX

The demotion comes up once again here, but nothing more comes of it.

https://imgur.com/a/dzuD4sG

https://imgur.com/a/s7BYQoT

It was spoken about a few times, but nothing came of it and demotion didn’t happen as shown in the logs, other than like 5 lines it was forgotten about and everyone moved on from it. I was never demoted, nor did anyone try to do so. It’s strange to have it in the note as a hypothetical essentially that did not play into the further situation.
By the next point I had been in a cell without a timer for maybe 5 minutes, and I mentioned it.

https://imgur.com/a/cajr8OE

This gets promptly ignored by sec who keep me in a cell with no timer, so in a few minutes I bring it up again.

https://imgur.com/a/cajr8OE

https://imgur.com/a/nLd09bI

Then one of the seccies comes into my cell to abuse me or buckle me back to a bed or something, so I shoved him once. He stuns me then leaves.
I claim that I could’ve shoved him and cuffed him(I had cuffs in my pocket) but I didn’t because I didn’t want to further escalate the situation.

https://imgur.com/a/RczzGVp

We have a small verbal exchange.

https://imgur.com/a/NJJ2pQd

He then flashes me and comes in

https://imgur.com/a/NJJ2pQd

https://imgur.com/a/KCZAlDs


https://imgur.com/a/oiOrXYN

I give him a few pushes, w/e this is a w/e situation.
He however demonstrates bad faith trying to LIE ABOUT THE SITUATION to get me more time in the brig.

https://imgur.com/a/dSVcQYa

Now at this point I had reason to believe that perhaps sec were lings or promoted antags as this seemed incredibly bad faith hence the threats to his life. (I threw more threats at his life later on) At this point we also had abductors, so it was possible that they were somehow fried. By them. Any good will or good faith I had to show to sec at this point was gone.
My time is over and the warden comes. He asks the seccie if I had escaped brig.

https://imgur.com/a/A9bxWDb

The seccie doesn’t respond to this but instead claims that I disarmed him??

https://imgur.com/a/u1DVuFM

Now, he entered my cell to try to allow me to show him that I could cuff him. Once more, I didn’t to prevent further escalation instead I pushed him a few times and grabbed him to buckle him to the bed as a bit of a joke. It was not an aggro grab even though I could have, his statement is a full-on lie.

It’s also important here how the demotion played absolutely 0 part and isn’t mentioned nor acted on again.
The warden heard my side of the tale and uncuffed me, letting me go with none of my gear

Nukies then seemingly spawned so I went to brig to get my stuff back

https://imgur.com/a/AvG42vZ

I got given my defibs and I asked for my baton back.

https://imgur.com/a/BobaNyA

The warden gave me a normal sec baton which was fine.

He asked over sec coms where it was, but seemingly got no response. All seccies at the the time would've seen this.

https://imgur.com/a/DBhjyIz

This is because our friend from earlier Ivan had kept it! The Warden then gave me a normal baton and I went on my way to hunt for the nukies yet the other seccies (the one from cargo and ivan) decided that it was not mine to have and wanted to steal it back??

https://imgur.com/a/uXcdY6u

https://imgur.com/a/g2eE53S

Clear attempt to start conflict again for no reason whatsoever. Blamed the warden for returning any gear to me. Despite it not really being the seccies call, he even went and yelled at the warden for this.

https://imgur.com/a/GgNcLO7

He claimed nukies to be fake...when the ai had called out that the fuck was at sat and tried to break the cooling loop.

https://imgur.com/a/ioGiFon

A bad faith actor trying to do anything he can to encourage conflict with me.

Anyway, back to the "fight". It was a conversation then a seccie started the fight by throwing a bola.

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/176 ... fined-9729

Yet I tried to explain my position throughout, after a few stuns we ran off into maint to escape the seccies, during the escape we stun them and take their stuns and keep running. There are no lethals from us. At this point I’m frustrated by them trying to steal a baton the warden gave me and instead of talking it out instantly escalating. Me, gor-rok and an assistant who had decided to help ran to departures where we hid in the sec outpost and were vibing.
This is where, “and the killing of more sec officers” comes into play.

Ivan came with a shotgun:

https://imgur.com/a/it59lVY

We stunned him, he called for help. We stripped him and threw him into Iceland sealing his fate. I believe the constant chasing and harassment in combination when I was in the cell and he lied about what I had done in an attempt to give me more time after keeping me for more than 10 mins I argue made him fully valid to escalation. If he wants to be a crooked cop or w/e he needs to face the consequences. Two more seccies ran down and one of them started throwing stars at the people I was with, at this point I presumed they had to be tots or brainwashed do to the horrible experience throughout the round, abductors were around too and nukies too yet all sec did was target me. We didn’t do much damage and I just stopped their hearts and left them in the chairs an easy revival and drag back to medbay. It's important to note here that they died only because of the throwing stars, I otherwise would have just cuffed them to the chairs but the tot item pushed me over the edge.

Why you should be unbanned: At the time there didn't seem to be any option other than to kill them in the way I did, I believe thus the escalation was valid I presumed them to be traitors or somehow valid the use of traitor gear in the final fight once more is why they were executed.

I don't understand why this was a ban in the first place. I hope, with the logs and perspective I provided you will be able to re-think the situation and the note+ban. Using the pocket defibs as a form of self defence when they're esentially a baton should not net me a medbay ban. I believe the seccies showed themselves enough in bad faith to be escalated on too, I tried to non-lethally deal with the situation and it only led to ruin for my round. The fight at the start with the QM only broke out the way it did because of the use of the word "Ligger" too. The note also mentions demotion that I hope I've proved doesn't factor in.
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CMDR_Gungnir
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #624218

Hopefully not a peanut;

Under the Escalation section of the rules, it says 'You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.'

"The Warden gave you something and I, an Officer, don't like that" is not legitimate reasons.
Donpedrito
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by Donpedrito » #624222

Headmin ruling from viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30076:
Wielding traitor gear during arrests threatens a sec officer's meta protections.
The thread title does specify MRP, but the ruling doesn’t mention it, so I’m not sure whether or not it’s applicable.
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by Lulufren » #624286

Image
In the image above, i compiled the rules and headmin rulings that i am basing this on.

First, about the cell timers: If they leave you with no timer, that is treated as the equivalent of a permabrigging, which is valid in cases of mutiny or attempted murder, both of which can be argued if you use defibrillators to stun sec officers.
About the demotion:
Image
The demotion was only mentioned for context.

I understand that you're a HoS main, and expect sec officers to behave in a certain way, but if you're a roundstart CMO and pick fights with security, don't be surprised when they treat you like an antagonist.
Basically, the moment you used the defib against the sec officer as a non-antag, you became the instigator.
Tossing sec officers into Iceland just makes it worse, really.

So, that 1-week jobban from medbay still seems justified, as long as you treat the CMO position like a HoS position but with gamer gear, maybe you should be playing that role instead.
While i am open to changing the note for better context (although i'm not sure how it could be made more descriptive), i am going to uphold the ban.
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kieth4
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by kieth4 » #624305

The cargo fight isn't a mutiny. They slurred the lizard then and it escalated from there, in response to the slur the lizard continued to hit the window. Then they sent sec at us and the defibs were used for self defence. It's not picking fights with security. Defibs to stun can in no way be equivalent to murder? What? I'm unsure why you're not just treating them like stunning with a stunbaton as that's what they are, a stun baton. Stunning security is NOT akin to mutiny. I didn't go out of my way to pick fights with sec either. Maybe if you want a situation to calm down don't call someone a ligger. I don't become the instigator using stuns as a way to defend myself from over-zealous sec when they attack first.

The screenshot you posted here is out of context too, it's from a conversation I had with a friend at the start of the round, which one again wasn't reffering to sole the defibs. It instead was about everything the CMO gets including the gamer chems.
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kieth4
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by kieth4 » #624311

I didn't harm the security prior and as the rules state "only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you" which I did when they continued to chase me because they didn't agree with the warden's ruling.
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by Sylphet » #624331

kieth4 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:16 pm We’re all aware of the equivalent of that phrase, getting called a Ligger did not calm the situation at all and began the conflict with me screaming. “Racial SLUR?” As far as I’m aware slurring also makes you valid for escalation, you can’t slur at someone and then when the situation gets worse ask sec for help.
This is correct, based on the recent clarification by MSO viewtopic.php?p=624234#p624234 --
MrStonedOne wrote:when i made the "This rule applies to ALL OOC bigotry, even when expressed in IC. There is no racism in 2561, just species-ism: there is no homophobia, just xenophiliaphobia, etc." bit of the bigotry rule, for species-ism i was basically thinking of ligger and the goal was to clarify it wouldn't be banned.

It should be valid for (initially non-lethal) escalation however. It's perfectly ic to want to beat the ass of some speciesist asshole.
This means that the cargo techs instigated the fight. In retaliating against the cargo techs for using a slur, Kieth and the other guy lost their protections by admins - but this does not make them the instigators. It's also worth mentioning that this line in the logs -- https://imgur.com/a/z2YmOVP -- is the start of the entire situation, where they are asking for their medical supplies. To say that they picked a fight is entirely false based on our escalation rules.
Lulufren wrote:So, that 1-week jobban from medbay still seems justified, as long as you treat the CMO position like a HoS position but with gamer gear, maybe you should be playing that role instead.
Job bans are for abuse of a role. The fact that using a weapon does not make you someone who is trying to play Headsec aside -- The defib is part of a CMO's kit. Is the use of a syringe gun or a circular saw abuse of the CMO position ? Is an RD abusing their position by using offensive extracts ? If you feel that it's overescalation, then that is what the ban needs to be based on. The justification for this ban focuses far more on the weapon chosen than whether or not the escalation was valid, which is the real issue here.
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by Lulufren » #624372

This means that the cargo techs instigated the fight.
So, i revisited the logs for the third time now. That makes it a total of probably 5 hours spent reviewing what i already know in order to make absolutely sure i didnt overlook something.
First attack after thw L-word is Lukas, with stun baton, against a security officer, not the cargo tech.
Then QM gets involved, with shoves and punches.
Sec officer gets batonged again. Not the cargo tech.
Same sec officer gets defibbed.
QM punches Lukas a few times. (justifiable as Lukas had attacked a sec officer)
Lukas uses telebaton against QM.
and so on.

See, all of this would have been a more functional justification, had Lukas (and Gor-Rok) not been in the process of tiding into cargo and attacking sec officers who tried to stop them from tiding into cargo.
And then later killing and looting those sec officers. (in one instance, critting and looting and then throwing the sec officer into the ice wastes to die) And taking their IDs. And acting as the new "security".
This is where it crosses from IC conflict to self-antagging/overescalation in my opinion. The whole "killing them and wearing their skin" part. I'll clarify the note on this.
Job bans are for abuse of a role.
Good point, i guess i should have made it a 2-day server ban for the 2 sec officers killed, but policy is that we dont escalate punishment on appeal. So i guess i can offer to take into account time already expired and trade the jobban for a 1 day server ban, (if kieth accepts this).
I thought i was being forthcoming by only making it a jobban, but of course, perspectives can vary.

To be frank, the headache of reading logs of a drawn-out fight with at least 6 participants (cargo tech, QM, lukas, gor-rok and 2 sec officers) is not something i'd wanna inflict upon anyone.
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kieth4
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by kieth4 » #624376

The attack occured after they had already come at us tools in hand. He was running at me with a stunbaton (as the other guy had set him on me and I reacted in self defence.) The window, over which the fight started out was because of gor rok. It is not tiding to go and TRY to claim the crates that had been purchased via tablet that unkowingly (fnr) had been canceled by the QM. He smashed the window fully in retaliation to getting called a ligger. We got sec sent on us for what we did and we reacted accordingly. This is because of the use of Ligger otherwise we 'prolly would've fucked off.

I'm still going to argue that this part has no bearing as the escalation here is fine so I have no idea what you're trying to ban me for. The two seccies died later on when they pulled out their antag gear and started using it on us at the end. After a whole round of harassment.
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Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by Sylphet » #624391

So, i revisited the logs for the third time now. That makes it a total of probably 5 hours spent reviewing what i already know in order to make absolutely sure i didnt overlook something.
First attack after thw L-word is Lukas, with stun baton, against a security officer, not the cargo tech.
Then QM gets involved, with shoves and punches.
Sec officer gets batonged again. Not the cargo tech.
Same sec officer gets defibbed.
QM punches Lukas a few times. (justifiable as Lukas had attacked a sec officer)
Lukas uses telebaton against QM.
and so on.
Again - it's fine for the first attack to have come from them, as the starting point of the escalation was the use of a slur, not the first time that a mob was clicked with a toolbox. This is an IC conflict that spiralled out of control, nothing more.
See, all of this would have been a more functional justification, had Lukas (and Gor-Rok) not been in the process of tiding into cargo and attacking sec officers who tried to stop them from tiding into cargo.
Here's the merged attack + say logs, filtered to include only Gor-Rok and Lukas.

Code: Select all

[2022-01-08 16:47:13.771] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has thrown the mechanical toolbox from Cargo Office (92,120,4) towards Cargo Office (91,120,4) using Telekinesis (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:16.278] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:17.185] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:18.075] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:19.069] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:19.894] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:20.820] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:21.801] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:23.124] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:24.004] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:24.815] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:26.280] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "I need in" (Cargo Office (91,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:28.024] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "Medical stuff" (Cargo Office (91,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:28.483] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "thats" (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:29.495] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "rude" (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:30.740] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:31.600] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:32.420] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:33.343] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:34.172] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:35.110] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [Cargo Desk] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:36.128] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:36.975] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:37.804] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:39.110] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:43.479] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "my face when cargo" (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:44.689] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "RACIAL SLUR?" (Cargo Office (92,121,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:44.937] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:45.823] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:46.696] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:47.516] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:48.391] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:49.425] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:50.307] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has attacked [reinforced table] with the mechanical toolbox (Cargo Office (92,118,4))
[2022-01-08 16:47:52.412] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has thrown the mechanical toolbox from Cargo Office (91,119,4) towards Cargo Office (91,118,4) using Telekinesis (Central Primary Hallway (96,118,4))
Gor-Rok is the one who was tiding into cargo - not Lukas. They toolboxed, Lukas asked. You can't hold one person responsible for another person's actions.
And then later killing and looting those sec officers. (in one instance, critting and looting and then throwing the sec officer into the ice wastes to die) And taking their IDs. And acting as the new "security".
The officer in question lied to get Lukas' sentence extended, claiming that they tried to escape. They also claimed that Lukas disarmed them. The reality of this is that the officer chose to enter the cell to flash and beat a contained prisoner. All of this is a display of extreme bad faith that a player would be very justified in fighting back against - but let's come back to this.

Code: Select all

[2022-01-08 17:03:28.609] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "CMO tried to run away from cell" (Brig (104,167,4))
[2022-01-08 17:03:37.225] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "How much does this increase time." (Brig (104,167,4))
---------------------
[2022-01-08 17:04:33.825] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "He disarmed me and stuff" (Brig (105,170,4))
---------------------
[2022-01-08 17:17:04.224] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) is no longer being ridden by Ivan Mauzer (Icemoon Wastes (38,143,4))
[2022-01-08 17:17:04.225] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has thrown James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) grab from tile in Icemoon Wastes (38,143,4) towards tile at Icemoon Wastes (30,145,4) (NEWHP: 100)  (Icemoon Wastes (38,143,4))
[2022-01-08 17:17:04.226] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has thrown Ivan Mauzer  (Icemoon Wastes (38,143,4)
Side note - it doesn't directly involve Lukas, but this is a second display of extreme bad faith from the officer that I came across, where they attempted to keep Gor-Rok even after their release --

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[2022-01-08 17:08:24.458] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "i was set free" (Brig (119,169,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:24.512] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has grabbed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) passive grab (NEWHP: 61.8)  (Brig (118,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:25.375] ATTACK: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/consumable/nutriment/protein (1.8u, 1 purity) and /datum/reagent/consumable/nutriment/vitamin (0.2u, 1 purity)) from the steak to [stomach] (Diner (149,136,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:26.878] ATTACK: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) has transferred reagents (no reagents) from the steak to [stomach] (Diner (149,136,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:27.288] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "by the warden" (Brig (108,168,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:29.541] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "your" (Brig (108,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:30.327] ATTACK: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) has transferred reagents (no reagents) from the cutlet to [stomach] (Diner (149,136,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:31.471] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "No." (Brig (108,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:32.746] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "You're not" (Brig (108,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:33.465] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "superior" (Brig (108,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:34.648] ATTACK: Snowypanda90/(Ben Snow) has thrown the plasma cutter  (Mining Dock (88,112,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:36.049] SAY: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) "what did he do" (Brig (109,169,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:38.944] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "We gonna have court" (Brig (108,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:39.810] SAY: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) "from what i heard" (Brig (109,169,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:39.992] SAY: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) "On him" (Brig (108,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:41.192] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has healed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with suture (NEWHP: 71.8)  (Brig (109,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:43.018] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "yes" (Brig (109,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:43.309] SAY: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) "vandalism and assault" (Brig (109,169,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:44.482] ATTACK: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has healed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with suture (NEWHP: 81.8)  (Brig (109,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:45.461] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "meanwhile" (Brig (109,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:46.428] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "i was" (Brig (109,171,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:46.691] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has grabbed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) passive grab (NEWHP: 81.8)  (Brig (108,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:48.203] SAY: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) "he has served his time" (Brig (109,169,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:48.207] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "set free" (Brig (108,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:48.448] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has punched Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 77.3)  (Brig (109,170,4))
[2022-01-08 17:08:51.673] SAY: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) "let him go" (Brig (109,169,4))
This is where it crosses from IC conflict to self-antagging/overescalation in my opinion. The whole "killing them and wearing their skin" part. I'll clarify the note on this.
From the rules --
tee gee station thirteen rules wrote:Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.
Not only is a nonlethal stunning of an officer not considered justification for execution, so the abuse is not allowed - but you can't kill or maim security for legitimate reasons, so let's get into that. From the time that Lukas was revived in the brig to the time that they were released by the warden, 15 minutes had passed. This is over the maximum allowed 10 minutes before a sentence is considered ahelpable, and all of this without a sentence actually being given. Also, the officer was thrown into the ice wastes after Lukas was released by the warden - note the time stamps. Released at 17h07, thrown into ice wastes at 17h17.
[2022-01-08 16:52:04.109] ATTACK: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) has revived Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) with the compact defibrillator (NEWHP: -50) (Brig (109,172,4))
---------------------
[2022-01-08 17:07:12.676] ATTACK: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) is being stripped of the handcuffs by ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) (Fore Primary Hallway (118,163,4))
[2022-01-08 17:07:16.842] ATTACK: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) has been stripped of the handcuffs by ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) (Fore Primary Hallway (118,163,4))
So the question is, why was security trying to continue the fight after the release. It looks like Lukas was given one by the warden, but logs are unclear on this and it can't be proven or disproven either way. Since batons are security items, I think it's fair to assume they got it through a legitimate path since there's no evidence of them stealing it from a sec officer or tiding into a locker after their release. Having a baton triggered a fight less than 5 minutes after.

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[2022-01-08 17:12:09.035] SAY: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) "the fuck" (Central Primary Hallway (130,120,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:10.615] ATTACK: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) has slipped on the [banana peel] (Central Primary Hallway (129,119,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:11.707] ATTACK: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) Quanzilo/(Myles Harrison) has been stripped of the handcuffs by ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) (Fore Primary Hallway (119,163,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:13.359] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "oh cringe" (Central Primary Hallway (129,122,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:13.655] ATTACK: ItzFatDog/(Igorek Pastor) has shaken Quanzilo/(Myles Harrison) (NEWHP: 99.7)  (Fore Primary Hallway (119,163,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:15.550] SAY: Culter/(Duncan Wolfe) "FOOD that YOU ordered" (Diner (148,137,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:19.819] ATTACK: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) has grabbed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (128,124,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:26.011] SAY: Snowypanda90/(Ben Snow) "recall" (Cargo Bay (81,118,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:30.432] SAY: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) "drop the baton" (Central Primary Hallway (127,141,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:32.273] SAY: Culter/(Duncan Wolfe) "Someone more competent" (Diner (148,137,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:35.301] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "What" (Central Primary Hallway (124,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:37.003] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has kicked Variatio/(Zane Batten) (NEWHP: 96.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,139,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:37.014] SAY: Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) "il drop your mother" (Central Primary Hallway (124,141,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:37.070] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "It's mine" (Central Primary Hallway (124,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:38.338] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has shaken Variatio/(Zane Batten) (NEWHP: 96.6)  (Central Primary Hallway (130,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:39.434] SAY: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) "No." (Central Primary Hallway (119,141,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:40.359] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has slipped on the [banana peel] (Central Primary Hallway (128,137,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:40.422] SAY: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) "it isnt." (Central Primary Hallway (118,141,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:42.613] SAY: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) "drop it." (Central Primary Hallway (119,141,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:42.882] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "Yes it is" (Central Primary Hallway (124,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:44.763] ATTACK: James Sirk/(Ivan Mauzer) has slipped on the [banana peel] (Central Primary Hallway (129,132,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:45.706] SAY: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) "You retards stole mine" (Central Primary Hallway (124,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:46.138] ATTACK: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) has thrown the bola  (Central Primary Hallway (119,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:46.324] ATTACK: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) has threw and hit Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) with the bola (NEWHP: 97)  (Central Primary Hallway (119,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:49.840] EMOTE: Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) gasps! (Central Primary Hallway (123,140,4))
[2022-01-08 17:12:49.842] ATTACK: Kieth4/(Lukas Beedell) has zapped Bob newman/(Konstantine Cohorus Lupas) with the defibrillator paddles (Wielded) (NEWHP: 93.9)  (Central Primary Hallway (124,140,4))
The officer tried to steal their legally issued baton in a reported nuke ops situation. This is, again, not a valid arrest, one that they were free to resist. They also did not harm the officer, only stunned - again, sticking to nonlethals even after all of the abuse from security that they experienced this shift. Then the fight grows to include Mauzer, the officer mentioned before who abused Lukas. At this point, it would be very justified to resist with lethal force a player like that. Even then - they weren't cremated, or gibbed, just left for anyone who cared to recover.
And acting as the new "security".
Also, I found not one instance in this shift of either player acting as a sec officer. The closest thing is the fight with the nuke op at the end, where literally any member of crew is free to engage them, and would have to if they want to live - the choice of gear doesn't matter here and they used what was available.

This entire thing is the result of bad communication in some cases and bad faith in others between security. It followed a clear pattern of fair escalation and Kieth tried at several points through the shift to deescalate through words while security continued to choose violence. In most cases, security made the first attack. No one was killed or maimed until the situation was far past its breaking point, and one of those was an abusive officer. That kill was made in retreat, neither player was hunting down and killing sec officers. No one has totally clean hands here, but this ban sits on a very shaky and confused foundation and should have been left as an IC issue.

TLDR - sec man bad.
User avatar
kieth4
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
Byond Username: Kieth4

Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by kieth4 » #624534

The impass we've reached has led to only one request, headmin review please.
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NamelessFairy
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Byond Username: NamelessFairy

Re: [Lulufren]kieth4- Ban appeal.

Post by NamelessFairy » #626765

We think Sylphet has covered everything we'd like to say about this ban and we believe that it as a whole is an IC issue, as the ban has already expired we'll be removing the note left by it.

Headmin Votes:
NamelessFairy: Do Not Uphold
Dragomagol: Do Not Uphold
RaveRadbury: Do Not Uphold
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