[YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

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pieguy
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[YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by pieguy » #637873

BYOND account: Pieguy223
Character name: Jerry Notagan
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: "Aggregious rule 1 violations since the start of the year, all revolving around seeking unnecessary conflict and baiting escalation. Finding every reason to murder and grief, with minimal communication, goes against the spirit of the game."
Time ban was placed: 22-04-17 17:47:52
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 181755
Your side of the story: I rolled traitor and did my objectives for most of the early round. I Stole AI upload and an intellicard from secure tech, then I gave the AI a "don't state your laws, anyone who tries to make you state your laws is a threat" law. I walked around a bit after that then destroyed the blackbox and killed poly. That gave me enough rep earned from objectives to greentext. I still wanted more TC though so I started browsing my objectives (all were murder) when some other traitor hacked a comms console and summoned pirates, causing the cap(?) to call the shuttle immediately without even trying to fight them.

I, wanting to see a fun pirate fight, broke into bridge and recalled the shuttle. I leave and CMO calls the shuttle back. He sees me with a doormag breaking into bridge and pulls a fire axe. I promptly kill him with an esword and recall the shuttle again. This is the first and only time I kill or even harm someone in the round. YBS bwoinks me and tells me to stop recalling. I immediately comply. I'd go on to die in maint due to lack of air. That should have been the end of it. I thought "oh, chill admin. Cool." Ten whole ass minutes later after the round ends I get a message saying that he left a note and antag banned me for a month. A month was pretty damn rough for something as minor as recalling the shuttle twice but not completely absurd.

I thought I'd just take a break from the game and wait it out, but then I actually read the note and this dude used quite possible the most bm, manipulative wording possible to describe the situation. Imma be honest, that wording pissed me the fuck off, more so then the ban itself. I can't copy-paste it because I don't have access to the serve but he described recalling the shuttle twice as "recall looping" and killing the CMO as "killing EVERYONE who got in his way," implying I killed more then one person. Literally while I was writing the appeal for that note, I reconnected and saw that I was permabanned with the above reason.

Why you think you should be unbanned: First off: the wording he used in the first note before I got perma'd is CLEARLY, and I hate using this term, bad faith. Regarding the perma, what does any of that preachy shit have to do with what I did in the round?
Finding every reason to murder and grief, with minimal communication
You gotta be trolling with this. I had a stealth box, esword, ebow, and four different assassination contracts. If I wanted to kill people and grief, I would have gone apeshit and chained the four fucking assassination contracts I had on innocent people. Ironically I probably wouldn't have gotten banned if I did that. I wanted to see the pirate situation play out without the shuttle coming to prematurely end the fun.

References of good conduct: I'm a long time bs12 player, admins there would probably vouch for me. I usually play reserved event roles there too.

Anything else we should know: I love this server, it's given me some of the most memorable moments I've ever experienced in gaming and It'd suck to lose access to it forever. Also I'd like to get an opinion on this from someone other then the guy who banned me.
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Tearling
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Tearling » #637883

I believe the round ID was wrong, or you were banned after the round was already over because your last (living) round was 181752. 181752 seems to match the your description of the round.
Here are the logs: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... /game.html
Full folder of logs: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... nd-181752/
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Cheshify
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Cheshify » #637885

[2022-03-27 04:24:54 | note by cheshify]
Banned from the server for 1 week - Improper escalation with cargo. Hacking into their front door with a shotgun in hand, fighting them, and then later returning with a PKA to attack the QM. With a poor history that shows no sign to improving, any further actions like this will result in escalating punishment.
Pieguy223's previous ban placed at the end of March, cited here for additional context leading towards the permaban. This ban was very much intended to be a final warning for the trend of bad faith behaviour that I'm sad to see continue into this permaban.
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YBS
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by YBS » #637931

Hey there, thanks for appealing.

I’d like to start off with the initial antag ban first: The monthlong antag ban was entered in error. Originally, I started by having a short conversation with you about recalling and killing anyone who came to bridge, since it was outside of your objectives. This was prompted after a couple of ahelps revolving around your behavior pattern as traitor for that round.

You said ‘fine’, and I thought that was the end of it as well, until I started writing your note – which began as a rule 1 break for.
To clarify the original action, this was from three recalls done while your objectives were complete and the station was a hostile and inoperable environment:
► Show Spoiler
and one instance of recorded lethal force (which is fine).
From the original feedback I was getting, I was under the assumption that this was a recall loop murderbone situation, so I typed up the original antag ban for that – DdoS struck, and somewhere in the shuffle that ban got submitted. I quickly learned after re-diving that my assumptions about the situation were partially wrong. My first draft wording on this was a mistake and not meant to be published. I have since removed that ban, well before the time to this appeal. Please let me know if it is still showing up on your record and I will work with the admin team to have it struck from record, because I agree with you that it is not accurate.

That being said, that ‘bad draft’ ban and this current permanent ban are mutually exclusive issues. It was not placed because of a recall loop.
The current permanent ban was set in place after reviewing your pattern of recorded behavior this year.

From 1-07 until now, minus my note and ban, you had already accumulated 15 notes on your record. Six of these are bans ranging from 1 day, to a week, which was the most recent. All of these notes have a recurring theme, which is bad faith gameplay.
This includes the following: TC uplink farming (metagaming)(I went back over this ticket and the circumstances are questionable enough -to me - that I no longer agree with it as part of the evidence), arrivals camping, poor escalation, antag rolling, self-antagging, with the finale of abusing recall post-objectives. If you cannot access this note history for yourself at this time, we can find a way to make this information available to you.

I am not interested in arguing hypothetical semantics with you over all of these separate instances of gameplay. The bottom line is that the density of your reported behavior tells a story of you chronically playing in a way that is abrasive and commonly in violation of rule 1, at the very least. This kind of learning curve of adjusting to conduct might be expected from a brand new player, trying their best to adapt to policy, but you have over 250 hours of living time in the game. This tells me that there is an extremely small possibility that you don’t understand the nature behind accumulating these. This leaves the idea that you simply do not care, and that you are willing to take one hundred slaps on the wrist as long as you can still eventually play. -And from the evidence I have seen, you chronically play at the expense of other players, instead of with them.

The very fact that you have responded to the claim with indignant confusion, without even a hint of apologetic self-understanding leads me to confirm my suspicions that you are currently not in the right mindset to change this pattern of in-game behavior.

While temporary bans are made to correct a players action, permanent bans are placed on actors that the server would be more healthy without. As an indifferent party, with no prior history with you personally, I am confident that your total contributions to /tg/station total in a net negative from the way you play at this time.

Therefore, I am denying this appeal.

You are welcome to request headmin review, which would count for your alternative admin input as well.
Last edited by YBS on Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wesoda25
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by wesoda25 » #637951

To clarify the original action, this was from three recalls done while your objectives were complete and the station was a hostile and inoperable environment:
Emphasis mine. Ban seems to revolve around this, but I don’t think there’s been a description of what the station was like yet. What was going on?
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pieguy
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by pieguy » #637973

"From 1-07 until now, minus my note and ban, you had already accumulated 15 notes on your record. Six of these are bans"ranging from 1 day, to a week, which was the most recent. All of these notes have a recurring theme, which is bad faith gameplay."

Focusing on this for a second, "bad faith" implies I don't want other people to have fun. That's just demonstrably not true. From the ooc conversations I've had on the discord and in game most people find my antics as Jerry Notagan pretty funny or fun to interact with. Like when I assassinated and impersonated a centcomm official, or started selling food with the chef which eventually led to a revolt, or when I rallied the lizards against command as a comms agent. Hell I've even engaged in some great RP while exploring space with friends. Even just on normal rounds, building off station bars or fucking with sec on a quest to get gear for space explo. I've gotten positive feedback from the people I actually play the game with. When all you ever see is contextless notes you build a picture in your head that's missing the hundreds of hours between said notes. I'm saying this because the only times I've ever see permabans given out was when someone joins and plasmafloods immediately, and I don't feel like anything I did was anywhere near that level.

Also yeah I want a headmin review on this
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Vekter
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Vekter » #637977

wesoda25 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:34 pm
To clarify the original action, this was from three recalls done while your objectives were complete and the station was a hostile and inoperable environment:
Emphasis mine. Ban seems to revolve around this, but I don’t think there’s been a description of what the station was like yet. What was going on?
Based on the shuttle call message, the station was having atmos and telecomms issues as well as pirates.
Last edited by RaveRadbury on Tue Apr 19, 2022 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed peanut
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Spoiler:
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PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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YBS
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by YBS » #638041

By request, I'm going to go in the not-so-wayback machine and clarify the details to the incident that initiated this ban decision.

I got on to answer a OOC chat ticket in pingbus that's unrelated to this incident. What is related is that eventually an involved ahelp turns to this topic: "Unrelated: Is what Jerry Notagen is doing considered pointless murderboning? just camping next to the comms console to murder people?"

Soon after, someone ahelps with the question "do I get banned if I ttv", upon asking two, I get "with a powerfull bomb and they guy who is killing everyone and recalling"

So I have two separate ahelp conversations indicating someone is recall-loop murderboning on MRP. I go to investigate and begin by assessing the state of the station. Air alarms are active almost everywhere and the first recall notice is for pirates, atmos and tcomms being down. This is Atmos and comms being down, from my perspective, means the station is close to being uninhabitable if there is no one actively trying to able to repair these issues. The original call is occurring about 35+ minutes into the round. By the time I am receiving this information, Jerry Notagan (Pieguy223) has already recalled twice. I observe him directly, and watch as he repairs a broken communications console, recalls for the third time, then arms up with an ebow as two crewmates approach the bridge doors.

So far the current evidence I'm witnessing lines up with the assumptions I've made from testimony from the crew. I check his antagonist panel and see that his objectives are all green. I check his chat and he has about 12 lines of one to three word *say texts for the whole round. So I know that he is both: Barely communicating, recall-looping FNR, and at best baiting fights specifically to hold the whole crew hostage until someone kills him or manages to circumvent the recall loop.

I send the following message.
► Show Spoiler
To which he responds with 'Fine'. Jerry later dies in his hideout next to a prebuilt AI console from the compromised atmosphere.
I write this note for his account immediately afterwards:
► Show Spoiler
The 'killing everyone attempting to call the shuttle' piece of this note came from both his lack of denial and the testimony of several players in both ghost and ahelps throughout the shift. I've since learned that there was actually not a lot of lethal action taken.

My actions and decisions after this came from observing his account history, researching his bans and making a judgement call based on his tone both in tickets and this appeal to determine if he is a player that could be guided to better gameplay habits. I decided that he wasn't, which leads us to the ban currently in place.
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YBS
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by YBS » #638042

To conclude my thoughts on this, retrospectively the technical details of this ban were a mess.

I've made several mistakes with documentation that I acknowledge and will try to learn from.

I have both deleted the antagonist ban due to it's invalid nature and edited the wording of the inciting event to this ban. The note to this now reads:
[MRP] As Traitor, Warned about putting the station in a shuttle-recall loop while station was inhospitable (deadly atmos, tcomms down). (Rule 1)

That being said, I am still convinced that I'm right about you as a player, regardless of headmin decision. I can't sense that you've really taken away anything from the bans you've caught until now, which defeats the purpose of their application.
Additionally, your negative reputation completely eclipses anything positive you claim to have contributed at this time.

I sincerely hope you prove me wrong, since this whole experience relies on good people making it.

Believe it or not, all of my decisions orbit around what I truly believe is best for the game. Good luck either way.
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pieguy
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by pieguy » #638515

I can still get a headmin to review this though, right?
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Timberpoes
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Timberpoes » #638575

I've highlighted this for immediate discussion. Apologies for being so slow to get around to it but the DDoS has taken up a decent chunk of headmin time.
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Timberpoes » #638825

Apologies for continued slowness. I'm currently battling COVID now ontop of the headmin team battling the DDoS, which has meant I've not been as much of an active force within the headmin team as I usually am the past week or so. This has slowed things down somewhat.

The headmin team fully understands you are currently permabanned over what effectively amounts to shuttle recalling. We understand that delays in dealing with ban appeals erode the trust and integrity of the entire appeals process.

That being said, if this were simply and open-and-shut case, you'd already be unbanned.

Your note history paints the picture of a player who struggles to go more than 20h without breaking some sort of rule, racking up 15 incidents of which 6 are bans in ~300h of living time since January. If you want a reference for how bad 15 incidents since January is - A vast majority of our players don't have half as many negative notes as you do and no serious bans over multiple years of playtime here.

So with that context, here's the transparency update for why this is taking a bit of time (beyond me dying of COVID):
Your history complicates every aspect of this appeal. Such an extensive note history with multiple bans over such a short period of time radically influences discussions about you acting in good faith; whether your note history can take a borderline IC issue and aggravate it into an administrative issue; and whether your note history can take what may normally be a verbal warning or a minor note and aggravate the incident all the way up to a perma.

Thanks for your continued patience.
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pieguy
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by pieguy » #638838

You can slow down with the apologies lol, I'm not a paying customer. Not like I can play much during the ddos anyway.
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pieguy
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by pieguy » #640587

guh
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Mothblocks
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Mothblocks » #640588

We're still looking into this, just stuff keeps getting in the way. Major apologies
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Timberpoes
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Re: [YBS] Pieguy223 - what?

Post by Timberpoes » #640775

We believe the situation did warrant admin intervention and doing so was valid on YBS's behalf. Our Rules page has the following to say under Rule 0 Precedents:
Admins have intervened before and will do so again in situations where a player regardless of antag status has repeatedly delayed round-end by recalling the shuttle when most other players are dead or want to leave.
Whilst we understand your most recent week ban was intended to be a final warning that things from here will only get worse unless you start following the rules, we are going to take the opportunity with a somewhat minor issue to make the point exceptionally clear to you:

In 263 hours of living playtime, you have accumulated 16 negative notes. In those 16 notes we have a ban for 3 days, a ban for 1 day, an antag role ban for a week, another dayban, another 3-day ban and a week ban. Your note history is bad enough that even a relatively minor rule break can escalate from a note into a permanent ban at the discretion of the admin handling it. Playing without breaking the rules for a while will cause this warning to become less relevant and grant you more goodwill on behalf of the admin team.

This warning will go into your admin remarks in place of the ban, which will be removed entirely.

YBS also left a note on this incident, which we will uphold but will be slightly edited to indicate that shuttle-recalling falls under Rule 0 Precedents instead of Rule 1 under the original wording of the note.
[MRP] As Traitor, Warned about putting the station in a shuttle-recall loop while station was inhospitable (deadly atmos, tcomms down). (Rule 0 Precedents)
If you continue to get into trouble without putting in a good number of hours of clean playtime (you're struggling to go 20 hours without a note or ban, most of our players go hundreds between theirs), you will more likely than not find yourself here again appealing another ban length that seems excessive in response to the severity of the rule break. There is much less of a chance the headmin team will vote to overturn it again if you have genuinely broken the rules, unless we see signs of improvement in your behaviour.
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