[Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

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Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
Byond Username: Rectification
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[Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #645487

BYOND account: Rectification
Character name: Sparks Foster
Ban type: Server/Note
Ban length: 2 Days
Ban reason: Banned from the server for 2 days - Lit off disco inferno as a nonantag, killed about 8 people. Going for 2 days instead of 8 since they don't have a history and are understanding.
Time ban was placed: 2019-09-21 01:49:35
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: The ban was placed on 119729, though my personal investigation found the event that led to the ban occur was round 119728

Your side of the story: This ban occurred 2 years and 9 months ago. I was playing botanist, and attempting to do my job throughout the shift. Nuke ops were raiding the station while I was busy figuring out how to grow apples or something, and they failed pretty spectacularly (the apples on the other hand turned out nicely). As you may know, the disco inferno shuttle was not locked behind using an emag on the coms console, and no policy involving buying grief or dangerous shuttles was in place. The captain this shift, as was fashionable at the time, purchased the disco inferno. I had seen the disco inferno many times before, and every time I had seen it, it would at some point be set ablaze. I assumed this was just a normal thing that non-antagonists did, not as any sort act of malice, but just because it was fun. Having seen the disco inferno shuttle be set on fire so many times, I came to believe, that this was the norm. I was under the impression, that if you willingly went into the main portion of the shuttle, that you wanted to get set on fire and party hard.
Once the shuttle was called, I grabbed a lighter and stuffed it in my pocket. When the shuttle arrived I danced around the disco ball. After the shuttle left, I threw the lighter at one of the statues made of plasma, setting the thing ablaze. While it was burning, I made no efforts to kill anyone, I made no efforts to stop people fighting the fire, and I made no efforts to break the glass that separated the safe zones of the shuttle from the burn chamber. I just danced and burnt to death.
I do not remember the exact contents of the admin ticket that followed, but there was no arguments or combativeness that I can recall.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I would firstly like to say that this ban is not reflective of who I am currently as a player. It was a long time ago, and I was still figuring out the deeper social aspects of this game. This was the first note on my record, and I haven't accumulated any further bans or notes since then. Mechanics and policy regarding dangerous shuttles have changed significantly since the time of the ban. I would argue that these changes were made with the specific intent of clearing up confusing situations very similar to the one I was in.
I had an incorrect assumption about the disco inferno. If I knew that the volatile nature of the disco inferno was only intended to be utilized by antagonist, or be sparked by accidents, I wouldn't have set it on fire. I know better now not purposefully ignite the disco inferno as a non antagonist, and I haven't done anything like this since. Finally, the note is extremely old and not relevant to me as a player anymore, if not for personal growth, then for the mechanics that have since then been significantly altered since the ban's inception.

References of good conduct: I have not accumulated any bad marks since this ban, nor had I any before. I have played a significant amount of colonial marines as well as a minor amount of goonstation, I have spotless records on both.

(edited an incorrect time label)
Last edited by Itseasytosee2me on Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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wesoda25
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by wesoda25 » #645490

I spoke with shaps and we both agree; this is denied.

The simple facts of the matter are that nearly 3 years ago you broke the rules and got a lenient ban in response. Times have changed since then, but that doesn’t mean we should just scratch this from the record. I understand it is not reflective of who you are as a player today, but then no one expects it to be. Notes document actions of a certain time. In your case, the lack of any since this incident speak much louder than the ban itself.

Fwiw, notes “grey out” after about a year. So admins wouldn’t even see this one without an extra button click to show greyed out notes. And I highly doubt any would care, unless you did the same thing again =/
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Dax Dupont
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Dax Dupont » #645534

wesoda25 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:18 pm I spoke with shaps and we both agree; this is denied.

The simple facts of the matter are that nearly 3 years ago you broke the rules and got a lenient ban in response. Times have changed since then, but that doesn’t mean we should just scratch this from the record. I understand it is not reflective of who you are as a player today, but then no one expects it to be. Notes document actions of a certain time. In your case, the lack of any since this incident speak much louder than the ban itself.

Fwiw, notes “grey out” after about a year. So admins wouldn’t even see this one without an extra button click to show greyed out notes. And I highly doubt any would care, unless you did the same thing again =/

I hope this isn't peanut but this is indeed the case. We don't really take really ancient and long expired bans into account most of the time. There's generally only a few reasons why we would but those are very rare. I suggest not worrying about this ban, it's extremely unlikely this will have a difference in any future admin action you may or may not get in the future.
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Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #645575

Excuse me for the delay, I'm formulating my response and consulting with my lawyer.
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Itseasytosee2me
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #645612

(These are my own words. I'm not being fed lines, but for the sake of clarity I did check with a third party just to insure that what I'm saying is making since here.)

Ok, Firstly I would like to agree with the notion that this is a matter of little consequence, I had that in mind when I first made the appeal. I respect the empathetic response.
However, I find your arguments contradictory. If this note is indeed not an issue by any means, and you highly doubt anyone would care, why is it important that the note remains? If it is your personal belief that admins should not take this note into account while making future decisions, then the only purpose it currently serves on my account is as bait for more foolish admins to cling onto.
If its not a big deal, then there should be no reason not to remove the note.

If there IS purpose to this note, contrary to what you claim, then doesn't my appeal deserve more than an instant denial? If a note from three years ago that was placed for an innocent misunderstanding of the rules DOES have an impact on my account and me as a player, then this appeal is made with the intent to prove that it no longer applies, and should not be on my record.

If you think this note should not be used by anyone, then it serves no purpose and should be removed.
If you think this note is of use to someone, then I'm trying to explain to you that it is not, and my appeal shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
Even though you highly doubt it will have any impact, the fact that there is a chance makes this note unjustifiably harsh. The note has no bearing on me as a player anymore, so I'm asking to have it removed.
I appreciate you taking the time to manage this appeal even though you might see it as inconsequential, I await your response.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Timberpoes » #645617

I'll just chime in as a headmin.

When people say your historical notes don't matter, they're simplifying things. Their purpose is to serve as a permanent record of your history on our game servers as a player. They will always be there. They may not always be relevant, but that's very different to them never being relevant. There are still edge cases where they matter, and knowing your complete history across your entire time on our game servers informs admin decisions better.

The argument against past notes existence being unjustifiably harsh is that such notes are justifed, even if it feels harsh that you still have a note for the thing years down the line. The justification is that the note was validly placed at the time.

When it comes to appealing notes and bans, "they're old and I've changed since then" isn't a basis we accept. By the same vein, we also reject any other basis founded on that same reason. That means appeals can be summarily rejected without any additional basis.
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wesoda25
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by wesoda25 » #645628

Yup, basically what timber said. Admins make informed decisions using their discretion based off a players history. In order to do this, they need the full picture and as much information as possible. When looking at removal, there are arguments to be made that a note/ban is unfair (due to inaccuracy or harshness), but simply being old is not one of them. My post was more focused on the silver-lining of what this note will mean for you instead of why it was denied, so I apologize for that.

Tldr, removal for simply being old is off the table. You’re still free to challenge the note’s fairness, just not for that reason.
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Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #645634

Thanks for clearing that up, I still have arguments about the ban's validity.

The ban being placed even during the time, was unnecessary. While I'm unable to find the related tickets, I remember making it clear to shaps that me lighting off the disco inferno was do to a lack of understanding that it was against the rules. I believed that what I was doing was not even in the slightest bit wrong. I think it gives credibility to my claim that I didn't know any better that both code and policy have changed in order to avoid situations like I found myself it. If I had not seen the disco inferno lit on fire so often (because it was locked behind an emag), I would not have assumed that it was OK to light it up. I'm not saying the change in itself make the ban invalid, but it definitely give credence to my story. The ban served as a punishment to me, despite my non-malicious intentions. I would think that the proper reaction to this scenario would be warn the player, and make sure that they knew that what they did was against the rules. A note if added should instead read something like "Set off the disco inferno as a non-antag, was informed this was against the rules. Don't let it happen again." And even this note wouldn't have been needed to stop me from doing it again. It would only exist to make admins aware in case of the event that I did it again, and tried to lie with the excuse that I didn't know any better. The ban currently insinuates that I knowingly went against server rules in order to kill 8 people, when its not the case. Parallels could be drawn to the blood contract, which was removed from the game for being unintuitive noob ban-bait.
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wesoda25
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by wesoda25 » #645650

You make a good point, and frankly had it been me, this might have just been a warning. However while I might not have dealt with this the same way, it doesn't mean that I don't understand and respect how shaps chose to do it. Even though they handled this differently than I might have, I still think their ruling is acceptable. It is frankly hard to judge when we've lost the logs of the ticket conversation to time. Due to that, as well as my limited capacity as a game admin, I'm not willing to change the ban to a note/warning.

What I am willing to do is add an edit at the end along the lines of:
Edit: for the sake of clarity, player claims they were not aware that this was against the rules, which is not hard to believe considering how frequently this shuttle was purchased and ignited at this time. Admins should keep in mind that the shuttle was considerably easier to purchase back then, and policy was not defined as clearly.
If that's not acceptable to you then I'll pass this on to headmins, as that's as far as I'm willing (or able?) to go here.
Last edited by wesoda25 on Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaps-cloud
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Shaps-cloud » #645652

Howdy,

I don't specifically remember this ban, but from having reviewed the thread and the ban notes, I don't see much reason to lift it. I appreciate that you want to have a completely clean record and you don't want that old note to reflect on who you are today because it's negative, but we really don't make a habit of expunging notes from people's histories just because they ask, and I don't think that's a good precedent to set. Admins won't put much weight on it because it's old, but there should still be a better reason than "I'd like to remove this from my record" to remove it.
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Itseasytosee2me
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:14 am
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #645696

wesoda25 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:55 am You make a good point, and frankly had it been me, this might have just been a warning. However while I might not have dealt with this the same way, it doesn't mean that I don't understand and respect how shaps chose to do it. Even though they handled this differently than I might have, I still think their ruling is acceptable. It is frankly hard to judge when we've lost the logs of the ticket conversation to time. Due to that, as well as my limited capacity as a game admin, I'm not willing to change the ban to a note/warning.

What I am willing to do is add an edit at the end along the lines of:
Edit: for the sake of clarity, player claims they were not aware that this was against the rules, which is not hard to believe considering how frequently this shuttle was purchased and ignited at this time. Admins should keep in mind that the shuttle was considerably easier to purchase back then, and policy was not defined as clearly.
If that's not acceptable to you then I'll pass this on to headmins, as that's as far as I'm willing (or able?) to go here.
This is more than acceptable. Thanks for your time.
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wesoda25
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Re: [Shaps] Rectification / Itseasytosee - DISCO INFERNO

Post by wesoda25 » #645697

Done. Thanks for being understanding
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