[NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

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Muffindrake
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[NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by Muffindrake » #648852

BYOND account: Muffindrake
Character name: Baal-Fur
Ban type: Note
Ban length: -
Ban reason: As a non-antag atmos tech cut all Air Alarm AI control wires in atmospherics, has been advised that they should not do this without a reason to belive that the AI is antagonistic in nature.
Time ban was placed: 2022-08-06 14:05:54
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 188025
Your side of the story: I cut the AI access wire in all Atmospherics air alarms to avoid getting griefed during the shift by incompetent AI players.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I was previously told by FatalX1 in round 187961 that since I'm a lizard and have no say in the matter of AI interacting with air alarms anyway, I should cut the AI wire in air alarms to avoid the unfortunate situations where ignorant players burn 95% of my tritium into h2o. Not much time later I'm noted by NamelessFairy for doing the exact thing I was told to do, and as a 'suggestion', am told by this very atmos-savvy admin (NamelessFairy) to construct new rooms in space just to avoid problems like this. And also to use the burn chamber in the incinerator, which suffers the same problem of Operating Mode Contaminated being available to AIs to use in ignorance. Constructing entirely new burn chambers including APCs to which I generally don't have insulated gloves for, plus air alarms and doors, out in space is something that is completely doable and realistic in a typical Terry shift if you want to do anything else in the shift, I know.

Cutting the AI wire in Atmospherics only is entirely necessary to keep your sanity when doing open turf setups. It's not like I'm preventing the AI from bolting open airlocks and flooding plasma from surrounding rooms into atmos (which is something that is completely trivial to do), as is running a cyborg at me and stunprodding me once which effectively round-removes me from that point anyway.
Anything else we should know: For the love of god, let us finally have some sanity in atmos. I'm sick of random players, not even AI players, running in and hitting Contaminated Mode for Good Boy Points, and completely ruining setups with no antagonistic intentions.
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NamelessFairy
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Re: [NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by NamelessFairy » #648857

I'm going to edit this note to below to include more detail, namely that this occurred at round start (within 3 minutes or round starting) and that you can also do this through escalation with the AI and not just for subverted/malf AIs, I see no reason to lift this note however as its a clear violation of rule 2 precedent 4.

New Note:

As a non-antag atmos tech cut all Air Alarm AI control wires in atmospherics at round start, has been advised that they should not do this without a reason to believe that the AI is antagonistic in nature or if the AI has already disrupted atmospherics.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by Timberpoes » #648884

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
Rule 2 Precedents
4. Atmos techs are not allowed to edit atmos at roundstart so that the AI cannot use it for malicious purposes. While this might not make sense IC, it's a necessary OOC precedent for some game mechanics to work. Atmos techs are allowed if they have any reasonable suspicion of the AI being rogue.
What FatalX1 tried to communicate to you is that if the AI is doing something to actively interfere with you and they don't stop when asked, it is reasonable and proportionate to cut cameras and AI wires so you can continue in peace. But you can't pre-emptively cut cams and wires just because you have an entire tree lodged up your ass about people interfering with your pet projects.

What Nameless is trying to communicate to you is that if the admin team feels you're cutting wires and cameras for no reason, or for a reason so poor that it's basically the same as no reason, they'll may step in.

Your behaviour is virtually indistinguishable from cutting wires and cameras "just in case the AI is malf/subverted". For gameplay and game mechanic reasons, this is generally prohibited.
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Muffindrake
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Re: [NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by Muffindrake » #648885

Timberpoes wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:28 pm https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
Rule 2 Precedents
4. Atmos techs are not allowed to edit atmos at roundstart so that the AI cannot use it for malicious purposes. While this might not make sense IC, it's a necessary OOC precedent for some game mechanics to work. Atmos techs are allowed if they have any reasonable suspicion of the AI being rogue.
What FatalX1 tried to communicate to you is that if the AI is doing something to actively interfere with you and they don't stop when asked, it is reasonable and proportionate to cut cameras and AI wires so you can continue in peace. But you can't pre-emptively cut cams and wires just because you have an entire tree lodged up your ass about people interfering with your pet projects.

What Nameless is trying to communicate to you is that if the admin team feels you're cutting wires and cameras for no reason, or for a reason so poor that it's basically the same as no reason, they'll may step in.

Your behaviour is virtually indistinguishable from cutting wires and cameras "just in case the AI is malf/subverted". For gameplay and game mechanic reasons, this is generally prohibited.
We have problem then, because the atmos grief happens even without any antagonist being involved. I could repeat what I said about past rounds with people overriding air alarm settings just because, but I'm not going to. We have no recourse, we can only use the 'suicide verb' and go to the 60 minute waiting room for the next round, because atmos setups are nuanced and are broken so badly by bad settings that you might as well do that. I've had it happen too many times, and nothing visible has ever been done against that.

Also, what the fuck do you mean 'pet projects'? I am providing clothes spaceproofing for the entire crew, upgrading medbay healing with Healium, and providing Cleansing crystals to them. Even a singular disruption in the form of an ignorant AI player doing aforementioned is enough to ensure nothing of the sort gets to the crew, that would require you to play the game to notice, though.

Further edit: The rules do not say that we can't edit atmos at all, and they do not state every possible malicious purpose must be left open. Since I never edit atmos pipes in a manner that prevents station gas floods, which is the main purpose of atmos for malf AI anyway, I ask you kindly to remove the note then, since I've not broken rules here.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by Timberpoes » #648899

Your actions were pre-emptively hindering the AI from doing things in atmos with your actions being motivated by experiences from what you percieve as antagonistic actions on past shifts, with no indication that this was necessary this shift.

To allow what you did would signal the green light for atmos players in general to cut every wire and trim every piece of AI interaction from atmospherics other than precisely what is needed for an AI to put plasma into mix and pump mix to distro.

But consider the bigger picture, that part of an AI doing malicious activities within atmospherics could include siphoning it to make it easier to defend their plasma floor, plasma flooding it first to maximise the chances of emptying distro and of air and filling it with plasma. These are the kind of things players may be preventing when they go around pre-emptively sabotaging the AI's ability to interact with things without a good reason and no, "I think AIs are all just griefing me" is not what we'd consider a good reason.

You're clearly not a rash person whom acts without thought to the consequences, so I'm sure you've already read our guidance on appealing notes at viewtopic.php?p=347563#p347563
Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.
The two grounds notes can be appealed are either
1. The note is factually or materially incorrect, or
2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.

There really doesn't appear to be anything in the amended note that is factually incorrect and it seems to align with your version of events too.

Given the above explanation into the bigger picture behind the rule in question, under what grounds are you arguing that the note is not just harsh but unjustifiably harsh to your standing in the eyes of the admin team?
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Muffindrake
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Re: [NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by Muffindrake » #648930

As I have reiterated many times, the note is missing the context that you have laid out in the first part of your post. Please include that I've frequently experienced issues concerning ignorant non-antag players in Atmospherics that hit random buttons there, because it implies that I did this for no reason, which would be factually incorrect. That would be something an uninvolved admin would not be able to see, and as such the note would have an unintended and possibly harsh effect on my interactions in the future.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [NamelessFairy] Muffindrake - admin remark concerning roundstart AI access cut to air alarms

Post by Timberpoes » #650506

Your note will be adjusted to include to information you've requested, and has been reworded as a result:
As a non-antag atmos tech, cut all Air Alarm AI control wires in atmospherics. They explained they did this because they've experienced other players interfering with their atmos projects in the past. Experiences from past shifts are not good justification for modifying atmospherics like this.
As the note says, experiences from past shifts are not a good enough justification for modifying atmospherics like this. Other players causing these kinds of issues are a part of the game and communicating your goals and intent with people should be the first thing you do when you suspect there is trouble.

Keep in mind that people don't have to listen to you, and if you're rude they may just screw with you on principle. Telling players not to do things is a great way to invite people to mess with you. Explaining what you're doing and asking them to be careful around atmos may be enough, instead. If you play a nonhuman, expect the AI to intervene if you're creating areas that may cause harm to humans.

Finally, if every player you meet is a rude asshole to you... Consider that instead you may be the rude asshole and players are just treating you in kind.
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