[Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

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[Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by dendydoom » #653289

Original appeal: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28063&p=582643#p582643

BYOND account: Dendydoom
Character name: Dreary Doom
Ban type: Character name
Ban reason: I have asked them not to use their long-standing name of Dreary Doom as I feel it does not meet naming policy. The player was fully understanding, accepting and co-operative during the ticket and important context is that their name has been used for 120+ rounds before I asked them to change it. I agreed to allow the player to change their name after the shift this note was placed in is over. I have asked the player to read over naming policy at https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules - Specifically the section on "Rule 3(?|F) Precedents" I have asked the player to update their character preferences and advised them to ahelp if you accidentally join a future shift with the name by accident.
Time ban was placed: 2020-12-03 22:20:49
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 151476
Your side of the story:

Good evening.

It has been almost 2 years since my initial appeal for this note. My character's name, "Dreary Doom", was found to have been below the minimum standard for names on the roleplay server. In that time I have since been playing under a similar but totally different alias, and have played many more rounds under that new name than under Dreary Doom. It still feels wrong, and many people who interact with me will still call my character Dreary. I have been approached by many of my friends and fellow Manuel players to encourage me to post a second appeal to this note. I have tried my utmost to make peace with the decision to banish my character's name to the shadow realm, but well, after such a long time I still find myself unable to fully accept the name ban and the reasoning behind it.

My argument for being allowed to use the IC name Dreary Doom again comes in 3 parts. Firstly, the following precedent from the naming rule:
Make a minimum effort to have your name fit in a setting involving a wacky space station in the future.
When I made the character I was brand new to the server. It sounded like a name that a cartoon character might have in some kind of episodic wacky space adventure show, or some overly "cool" name from a 60s pulp sci fi novella. I feel that both of those moods fit the intended feel and setting of the RP server. It is worth bringing up here, as a facet of my argument, that there is very little IC "lore" to speculate upon to derive good names from. I wanted a name that was memorable and appropriate for the setting, and not something normal and forgettable. It could be argued -- depending on how much of these rulings are based upon player intent and forethought rather than outcome -- that a space faring culture of people generations deep and whom do not regularly land on planets would have cultivated their own unique naming conventions. I argue that, in some small way, with enough well intentioned thought and effort, Dreary Doom could be a sensible and reasonable IC name under the speculative circumstances of the wider lore.

Secondly, the ruling was made under the pretence of protecting RP. However, I assert that the decision itself has harmed more RP than it has preserved. In my entire time in this community, the only time I have ever gotten into "trouble" is over this name ban. I have placed the utmost importance and respect into understanding and cultivating the dynamics and inner machinations of the server's culture. I have tried my best to ensure that in every approach I take to this game and this server in particular I have always placed the ideals of fair, good-faith based co operative storytelling first. I bring this up because this behaviour has gifted me with a lot of good friends and good IC connections that I have meticulously built up over the time I have been playing on my single character. I have tried to put thought and careful reasoning into the decisions behind my behaviour for every single round, and in doing so, I believe I have brought good things to the RP culture of Manuel. When I had to change my name, it became very frustrating because it meant that I had to address this drastic IC change without referring to the OOC circumstances under which it was forced. People thought I was a different character entirely, or otherwise became confused over why this was happening. It created a lot of legwork on my part just to preserve the RP that I was already cultivating.

Why do I bring this up? Well, because forcing me to uproot this integral facet of my character in order to placate some ideal of protecting the sanctity of the RP space has, in itself, harmed the RP space that I have tried to help cultivate. Almost 2 years on, people who know my character still call them Dreary, because ultimately, that is their name. I believe that the precedent under which my name was banned was to stop names like "Shitty McDickAss" from becoming the norm and negatively affecting the RP space. I assert that nothing about my behaviour or my character's name has created any of the issues under which this precedent was set.

Thirdly, the decision itself, while I respect it and the people who came to a reasonable and well intentioned decision, is an incomplete decision which has done nothing except inconvenience me and deprive me of my RP. The intention was to set a new standard for roleplaying names by addressing the name of a known character. Since then, no other names that "toe the line" of naming policy have been addressed in a similar manner, and I feel that it would be ridiculous to enforce such strict conventions, because it would do more harm than good. I feel that I should not have to shoulder the burden of this experiment any longer.

Thank you for your time.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #653292

My previous ruling on this can be found viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28063
Timberpoes wrote:The suitability of using Doom as a last name is not a call I can make for you as it will always be judged in the context of your name as a whole. My note and ruling specifically covered the IC name Dreary Doom. While I accept I told you that Doom was not a suitable last name in general to use in the ticket, I should have emphasised that it was my subjective opinion. For that exact same reason, I cannot endorse your use of it in such a manner that no other admin may question it in the future.

My personal feelings are that if you must use a name including the word Doom, which has specific meanings both as a noun and a verb in ordinary English, it should be used in an unambiguous context because it's a borderline word to use in a name in general outside of the example given of French Polynesia, where the name has very little relation to the plain and ordinary meaning of the English noun/verb form of the word Doom that we use in the modern day.
I'd still say that Dreary Doom is below the naming standards whether LRP or MRP when I am now asked about it today. That is not to say that it is universally agreed internally - but nothing ever really is. To me, it's not a naming policy compliant name for a non-entertainer job.

Mime? Yes. Clown? Yes. Chaplain? Passable.

Lacran was also asked not to use Mary Megablade circa ~2 years ago, but was deemed acceptable as an entertainer or as a Chaplain gimmick if they played the character as the Church of Megablade.

I think there's a certain element of dramatisation in your appeal which I can't really vibe with, you're saying you're still being called what you want to be called regardless of the name tag. Yet this is depriving you of RP. The fact people still call you Dreary is a form of roleplay, I don't see how you've been negatively impacted if your old name is still being utilised informally 2 years down the road. And nobody is stopping anyone calling you that.

I also want to state there isn't a high barrier that you as a player need to pass in order to challenge my application of discretion. This is simply a case of whether the headmin team feels the name is acceptable or not by a mix of their own views and naming policy's current place on the servers.

It would also be much more helpful if you can put forward how "Dreary Doom" as a name itself passes naming policy. At least one headmin raised this point internally, so it could work in your favour to address that. Without that, all you can do is ask "hey headmins, do you agree with this punk-ass Ocelot bastard?"
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by dendydoom » #653296

Thanks for the quick reply, Timber.
I'd still say that Dreary Doom is below the naming standards whether LRP or MRP when I am now asked about it today.
I posit the fact that naming convention for any race, lore-friendly or otherwise, hangs on the arbitrary ideals of the admin that called it into question. I fail to understand how such a rule can be seen as conducive to a better RP environment when it's levied against players who are clearly acting in good faith, rather than as an easy means to single out people who are utilizing naming conventions to actively harm the RP space with dumb names.

Are we to assume that, by extension, the quality and nature of all RP names that aren't blatantly made in bad faith then must pass this barrier of whether or not the admin "feels like" it's a suitable name? What about characteristics of naming schema which seek to cleverly (or not so cleverly, in my case) undermine relevant narrative tropes or communicate setting-specific characteristics to create a fuller, more nuanced tapestry of our IC universe? What is to be gained by such arbitration when it is so clearly unnecessary? What has been gained by revoking something which, up until the decision was made, no one had ever had a problem with?
Mime? Yes. Clown? Yes. Chaplain? Passable.
To me this only highlights the arbitrary nature of when "comedic" naming conventions are and are not allowed. What is the purpose by which clowns are allowed to have completely OOC names? Because that's just how it's always been, and admins don't feel it necessary to arbitrate on that level, so they just let it go? Is it a case that such roles are defined by their gimmick, so no one has a problem with it?

What about other RP names for races such as moths being named things like "Lampy McLampylamp" or whatever? My point is that I have been made an example of when it was completely unnecessary to do so. There is nothing to be gained by levying such harsh restrictions on me for one case when other such cases are blatantly allowed for barely explained, borderline nonsensical reasons just because "that's how it is."
Lacran was also asked not to use Mary Megablade circa ~2 years ago,
I would argue that Dreary Doom does not sit equal to Mary Megablade. While the names are certainly cartoonish, Megablade had a well defined gimmick that was the defining element of their entire character. The same is not true for mine. It's just a name that's kind of quirky. Dreary is not a gimmick character.

Though it is another ruling which I personally disagree with - the value of Lacran's input on that character helped to foster a lot of roleplay which sought to undermine popular scifi/pop culture tropes in a very tongue-in-cheek way that is reminiscent of SS13's humour through and through. They were also self aware enough in their roleplay that they were always lucid of this fact and used it to great effect to tell excellent stories. But that is irrelevant to my case.
I think there's a certain element of dramatisation in your appeal which I can't really vibe with,
I would agree that there is a small element of frustration which I have allowed to bleed through in my appeal. I have quietly accepted the outcome of this ruling for almost 2 years and in that time I have been approached endlessly by people telling me that I should push back against that decision. I have had a lot of time to ruminate over it, and as a result I have developed a lot of complex feelings that I have only just now been able to vocalize in this thread. It is nothing personal, and I do not hold you in any negative regard for the decision that you came to. You are just doing your job, and I respect that. I simply disagree with your ruling.
you're saying you're still being called what you want to be called regardless of the name tag. Yet this is depriving you of RP. The fact people still call you Dreary is a form of roleplay, I don't see how you've been negatively impacted if your old name is still being utilised informally 2 years down the road. And nobody is stopping anyone calling you that.
Personally I feel that the consequences of the ruling are irrelevant to the manner in which the ruling was made in the first place. But I will address this nonetheless, because I feel that this is an important conversation to have.

The fact that the Manuel community has identified that the ruling was poorly made for arbitrary reasons and still continue to placate me and engage with my roleplay is a testament to the good nature at the core of the community, to their ability to recognize new ideas and new narratives and engage with them on equal footing, and the main reason why I am still here. From the time the ruling was made to today everyone across discord and in-game over OOC and death chat have been telling me that they didn't like the ruling and thought it was poorly made. I don't agree with the idea that just because we have been able to pull together and work around the issue of this ruling is any evidence as to the ruling being a good idea in the first place. It is just evidence of Manuel having a kind and well meaning community.

In fact, I would argue that it only highlights the arbitrary nature of the ruling in the first place - if the name Dreary is accepted into the common shared narrative of the RP space, then what is the purpose of banning it? It is effectively making more hoops for me to jump through when the end result is exactly the same.
It would also be much more helpful if you can put forward how "Dreary Doom" as a name itself passes naming policy.
I feel that it's part of the arbitrary nature of this ruling that I should have to argue the case for my own existence when no other player of my nature has had to do the same. That is why I felt it necessary to give some dramatic background on my attitude as a player in my OP, because I feel as though I have been hit with a rule precedent very much intended for bad-faith players naming themselves in a low effort way to skirt RP policy. Certain elements of this ruling feel, at least to me, as though I must defend the good faith and creative endeavour of my behaviour as much as the outcome of the name itself. Perhaps that feeling is misplaced. I don't know.

The precedent under which my name ban was placed is extremely open to interpretation and I don't know how a possible counter-argument could even begin when the basis of the ruling was made on what the arbitrator "felt" was acceptable. However, I shall attempt to deconstruct my reasoning on the name and why I feel that, as part of the IC narrative space, it has legitimacy.

I had touched previously on the RP nature of why I think Dreary Doom could be an acceptable name in-universe in my OP:
It is worth bringing up here, as a facet of my argument, that there is very little IC "lore" to speculate upon to derive good names from. I wanted a name that was memorable and appropriate for the setting, and not something normal and forgettable. It could be argued -- depending on how much of these rulings are based upon player intent and forethought rather than outcome -- that a space faring culture of people generations deep and whom do not regularly land on planets would have cultivated their own unique naming conventions. I argue that, in some small way, with enough well intentioned thought and effort, Dreary Doom could be a sensible and reasonable IC name under the speculative circumstances of the wider lore.
It is part of the backstory for my character that she has never been to a civilized planet. Her culture is a patchwork of space-faring civilizations comingling in a frantic diaspora amongst the stars. I don't want to fill this space with meaningless drivel about the headcanon for my OC, but I feel that it says a lot that we allow players to start from an idea that may be "silly" but then have the efficacy to develop it into something that says more than it seems at first glance.

By arbitrarily applying rulings of this nature we are depriving ourselves of exploring well meaning ideas and possible narratives before they even begin. I have participated in other smaller servers who understand this sentiment which espouse their intentions to hold RP to a much higher standard and none of them have had any issue with the name Dreary Doom after I have demonstrated that I am willing to put time, effort and thought into what I do. But that is neither here nor there.

The crux of my argument is that the precedent is obviously a tool for admins to use to combat players who are seeking to abuse the loopholes of naming policy, however it has been applied to me when no such issues are present. I am not here to cause issues by creating a stupid name which harms the RP space - I am attempting to do literally the opposite by exploring these concepts with thought, effort and care. I have demonstrated that I have put thought and effort into my character and their name. Through these efforts the name Dreary Doom has been accepted into the narrative IC space, and that despite the fact that this ruling was made, other players who engage with me still find it necessary to refer to my character by their original name. In essence this shows that the preference in the IC space, which the rule is meant to preserve, is for the continuation of Dreary Doom to exist, and that the ruling ultimately does nothing of value to preserve the RP space.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #653345

I fully accept that application of naming policy is very inconsistent and often manifests as being enforced almost arbitrarily. Especially because naming policy is notorious for how wildly different admin standards are and what names any given admin accepts or doesn't accept.

If you ask any 2 admins for their opinion on a name, you often get 3 mutually exclusive answers back. I don't think Dreary Doom passes the barrier for naming policy as a whole, some other admins agree, some disagree.

I very much could be wrong, could have been mis-applying naming policy or there could just be a new approach in 2022 tgstation to names that the current headmin team wish to support that is contrary to my own.

I don't think you'll be able to change my mind on the basis of my own inherent opinions on what names I think match up to naming policy versus not.

It may be good for the headmin team to clarify their vision for naming policy via this appeal. Policy via appeal. Truly the best way to see an appeal take a month to resolve most based timeline. I've asked the headmins to review my decision here, as a result.

I'll also have a harder time understanding where and for what reasons the line is drawn without asking the headmins to review my reasonings and make their own ruling from that point. So this will be a learning experience any way you look at it.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #653410

I'll follow up in a more visible format than the peanut thread, but I'd like to just put some further stuff forward that is partially in response to points in the peanut and provide some necessary clarity.

On the question of you having to prove your name is acceptable:

This entire thing is just me having an opinion and using a discretion to enforce it. The barrier to overcome that as a player should not be very high, because it is the shakiest and flakiest form of admins using their power.

Although I certainly didn't decide to deal with this on a whim in 2020. The admins I quoted in the original appeal were Lepi and Domitius, then current headmins. My gathering of opinions was far from half-assed and factored into my decision to ask you to change your name.
Timberpoes wrote:Of course, whether Dreary Doom at all is acceptable is not necessarily a universal opinion. When I originally brought your name up in October in the admin backchannels (Yes, I have intended on asking you to change it for awhile now but have never gotten around to it) - EPIC LEAK TIME - opinions ran the gamut from, I quote, "also dreary doom is another fuckin horrible name" [Naloac] through to "I have no issue with a name like Dreary Doom, it's kind've fun and isn't a penis joke" [Domitius].
Because of the pointless nature of arguing opinion against opinion, I simply don't expect you to or ask you to. I feel the best you can do is put forward a positive case to the headmins and hope their opinion is different to mine.

That's what I put forward in my response to this appeal and I want to strongly clarify it as being the case:
Timberpoes wrote:I also want to state there isn't a high barrier that you as a player need to pass in order to challenge my application of discretion. This is simply a case of whether the headmin team feels the name is acceptable or not by a mix of their own views and naming policy's current place on the servers.
It was as much a message from me to the headmin team as it was to dendydoom. There was no ulterior motive for choosing to enforcing naming policy other than my belief it wasn't a suitable name. No reading between the lines. Dendydoom is a player in good standing and the only other note they have on thier account is also from me, and was a positive note for exceptional roleplay.

I go on to suggest you put forward a positive reason why your name is policy compliant is partially because that was an angle a headmin brought up in internal discussions.
Timberpoes wrote:It would also be much more helpful if you can put forward how "Dreary Doom" as a name itself passes naming policy. At least one headmin raised this point internally, so it could work in your favour to address that.
And partially because it's something that would almost certainly move my opinion too.

Afterall, in the last appeal a player brought up that Doom was a name that was possibly common in French Polynesia. A bit of research and I factored that into my final ruling, going back on my in-game ruling that "Doom" would probably not be an acceptable last name, to ruling it an acceptable one as long as it was not too ambiguous if it was being used as a name instead of in verb/noun form.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by dendydoom » #653414

I did not even realize there was a peanut thread. I would be lying if I didn't say it was nice to know people in the wider community outside of Manuel agree with my sentiment, but I would like to make it clear that my issue is not with the fact that you made a ruling. My issue is with the application of the rule precedent. There is no argument I could make that focuses on the basis of the precedent, because it literally just says "if an admin doesn't like your name they can ask you to change it" and admins like yourself didn't like my name and asked me to change it. There is no leeway there.

I have formed my argument on the wider context of the precedent and its greater implications for players such as myself. I knew all along that this would have to go to headmin ruling, so I formed my argument with that in mind. I believe that my argument has a strong basis and I am happy to have it considered by the current headmin team.

As I've said before, I have no personal qualms with you or with the way in which you have conducted yourself. There was never any point where I felt like this was being made personal or whatever. My problem is with the precedent. I simply disagree that such a precedent should be applied in this manner. Naming policy is clearly meant to preserve the RP space in some way, but it is a central point of my argument that it strips all nuance and examination of the intentions of the player and tars them with the same brush as someone who joins and calls themselves "Fucky McShitass". The rulings are also arbitrary where if one admin takes the effort to hone in on one player, then all other players who have escaped their purview still undermine that decision with their very existence within the RP space. There is no ownership of naming policy, and that is a problem. I hope that, if I were to see the result from this that I want to see, that there will be some alteration to the intention of the precedent. These rulings should be based on whether or not the player is acting in good faith and can demonstrate effort and thought as to the intention of their RP. Of course, most of this is just reiterating what I put in my essay, which is what I hope the headmins will consider when it comes to their deliberations.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #653464

They will take it all into account.

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek when I said it, but I do expect this to interweave itself with policy. So it may take a hot minute to resolve, which is par for the course really.

I do think it's an important appeal in that respect though, because it genuinely does get to the core of admin discretion/opinion within naming policy, and the purposes and goals of naming policy in general.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by RaveRadbury » #653748

We are rejecting this appeal. It's histrionic, lengthy, and demonstrates the exact attitudes and behaviors that cause admins to balk at applying naming policy in the first place.

This note was not an "experiment" and you were not "made an example of". These notes happen more frequently than you'd think, you only see the ones that were appealed. Naming policy is applied at the discretion of admins. This note was correct when it was applied, and it will be correct if it is ever overturned.

If this is how you act the first time you get in trouble I'd hate to see how you are the second time it happens. You go on about how you had no course to explain your character's name change yet you completely disregarded the suggestion to add Dreary as a nickname (Dorothy "Dreary" Doom) which would have completely addressed the issue. Essentially you refused an easy solution to give weight to your problem, which is at best unconvincing and at worst undermines your argument when you assert that people call you Dreary anyway.

Ultimately your scattershot what-about-isms taken in hand with your claim that you were writing for headmin review from the beginning gives us pause to accept your appeal even if we agree that the note should be overturned. This is not an acceptable standard for a name appeal.

Should you decide to appeal this note again in the future we request that you keep your appeal succinct.

For reference, your first major point:
dendydoom wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:52 pm When I made the character I was brand new to the server. It sounded like a name that a cartoon character might have in some kind of episodic wacky space adventure show, or some overly "cool" name from a 60s pulp sci fi novella. I feel that both of those moods fit the intended feel and setting of the RP server. It is worth bringing up here, as a facet of my argument, that there is very little IC "lore" to speculate upon to derive good names from. I wanted a name that was memorable and appropriate for the setting, and not something normal and forgettable. It could be argued -- depending on how much of these rulings are based upon player intent and forethought rather than outcome -- that a space faring culture of people generations deep and whom do not regularly land on planets would have cultivated their own unique naming conventions. I argue that, in some small way, with enough well intentioned thought and effort, Dreary Doom could be a sensible and reasonable IC name under the speculative circumstances of the wider lore.
Would work, if you cut the word count by about half. At its core "this character name seemed fitting for a wacky space sci-fi flick" is good.

We would like to extend to you the option to appeal this note again during this term, provided that you make a good faith effort to play as Dorothy "Dreary" Doom, a suggestion that was made to you two years ago and never taken. Please take the time to give it a try and get a good number of rounds in, then appeal in 1-3 months. At this time Scrubby reports 127 rounds as Dreary Doom and 188 as Dorothy Doom. Of course, we do not expect for you to match these numbers with the requested name but would like you to keep them in mind.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by dendydoom » #653756

Obviously I'm disappointed with the outcome but I'm more shocked at your tone policing, Rave. There was nothing histrionic or personal about my appeal, but your deconstruction of my attitude more than the considerations for the points I raised is entirely to the contrary. My first appeal was respectful, and similarly for this one I put a lot of time and effort into proposing my points sincerely and thoughtfully. I referred to it, offhandedly and admittedly distastefully, as an "experiment" because I was told at the time that I was chosen as an example to introduce stricter naming conventions for the RP server. This did not happen.

The first time I ever got "in trouble" was for this note, and in the 2 years since no one has ever had an issue with me, so your concerns about me getting into trouble and you having to endure hearing me speak for myself a second time are misplaced. You don't need to worry about me making another appeal regarding this. What would be the point of playing more rounds under a nickname which includes my banned name just to ask a third time to finally please be allowed to play as my original character now that I've jumped through the required number of hoops to appease the admins? Is the slight frustration of my predicament not understandable?

I was honest about writing for headmin appeal because the precedent under which my name ban was placed has no leeway for discussion. Obviously, then, the only route would be to discuss the wider implications of the policy as a whole. If this is so wrong, then I don't know what to say.

I didn't take the "easy option" of adding a nickname because it seems preposterous to have to have this unwieldy, overly wordy name to appease a policy which finds my character unacceptable when there are people like Pizza Parker and Mothy Mclamp and Heart Emoji running around. In fact, in the original ticket, I was told that I was not allowed "Doom" either. I played multiple rounds as an entirely new alias and was mistaken for an entirely new character until I made the appeal and was given permission to keep the surname. Similarly, how would you feel about the effects on the concept of your character if you were made to endure "Jane "Heart Emoji" Johnson"? Not quite the same thing, is it?
Would work, if you cut the word count by about half. At its core "this character name seemed fitting for a wacky space sci-fi flick" is good.
It's an interesting insight into your impartiality that the point I made was good but is not being considered in the appeal that I made it in because my tone is the more important thing to address. What's even more interesting is that I made this same point in my original appeal which was subsequently denied. Is it any wonder why I was under the impression that I needed to fight a stronger case this time?

I accept your decision because I must, but the rest of your points are nonsense. Apologies for making you read and double apologies for speaking in a way that you didn't like.

Thank you for your time.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #653763

RaveRadbury wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:47 am ... At its core "this character name seemed fitting for a wacky space sci-fi flick" [would work].
This is the part that genuinely matters to me. Despite the headmin ruling upholding my decision, I cannot also reconcile the rest of the response with this (edited for context) quote above.

I originally rejected this appeal because I personally felt that Dendy Doom did not fall under the above clause when applying "Admins may get involved if your name is dumb and can approve or disallow names at their discretion while in-game" from Rule 3 Precedents.

If there is a reasonable prospect that the name does fall under it, and that thought is echoed by the current headmin team?

Then my own sense of justice doesn't agree with dragging this out pointlessly. I see precisely zero merit in making dendydoom re-appeal, because I would immediately overturn it at such a future point in time regardless of the future appeal content.

Accordingly, I will reverse my use of discretion as at best misguided and at worst simply incorrect depending on where you fall on the "I love admins" vs "I hate admins" spectrum.

I accept the appeal in full, and will be overturning the note and the name ban entirely.

I personally apologise to dendydoom for the inconvenience that I have caused over the past 2 years as a result of my original ruling. I hope to see Dreary Doom take to the stage on tgstation once again.

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dendydoom
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by dendydoom » #653765

I personally apologise to dendydoom for the inconvenience that I have caused over the past 2 years as a result of my original ruling. I hope to see Dreary Doom take to the stage on tgstation once again.
Timber, with the utmost sincerity I can muster: there is absolutely nothing you have to apologise to me for. While I disagreed with your ruling, I have known all along that you don't take these decisions lightly and that there was a background of dutiful care and attention in your decision making. I felt like it was in my best interests to prepare an argument that was equally as thoughtful because I know you would take it into account fairly. In fact, it should be me that apologises to you for the headache this appeal has caused from the wider backlash in things like the peanut thread. Certain messages in there were not very nice for me to read, I can only imagine how it was for you. You don't deserve that kind of unfair criticism. You have always been an excellent admin and I have always respected your conduct. With that said, thank you so much. I need to go and cry a little now.
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RaveRadbury
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by RaveRadbury » #653778

Regardless of your opinion the rejection stands. You asked for headmin response and this is the agreed position that all three of us took, with the ruling that we all voted to post.

You're welcome to take the offer or leave it.

Headmin teams vary from term to term, perhaps we would have received your original appeal, unfortunately the term at the time didn't.

Even after we asked you to reduce your words down you're still going off with self-righteous verbiage and now you're taking pot shots at me.

I'm locking this, we don't want to read another essay from you.

I understand that Timber is now willing to overturn the note based on the core of your appeal; while we agree with that, our ruling has been made and it was made for reasons that we deliberated over and agreed to. We will be having dedicated deliberation to discuss this but at this time we are treating the turnover to headmins and subsequent ruling as a forfeit of overturning rights.
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by RaveRadbury » #653838

Hey, everybody. I've unlocked the thread to allow DendyDoom and Timberpoes to reply. This whole situation turned out to be a bit of a mess, and I'm sorry that it ended up like this. My intent in both of my replies was never to be rude or targeting of DendyDoom, though it seems like it's definitely come off like that. I lost perspective during attempts to sound impartial, and I do want to apologize for my mistake to both DendyDoom and Timber.

After further deliberation, we have decided to reconsider the ruling and allow the issue to resolve between the two originally involved in the appeal, Timber and Dendy. This is a decision that the full headmin team talked about between all three of us and discussed, before making sure with each other that it would be okay to post - this also applied to the original rejection message, which had been talked about in the same fashion.
It may have been a bit rash for me to delete both of your posts and lock the thread - I was afraid of it becoming a bit of a mess, and wanted to sort everything out as best as I could, as the sudden turn was a bit of a shock. In light of this, I've undeleted both of them and unlocked the thread to rectify this.

Essentially, when we talked about the original issue we all made a decision, and then we posted it with the assumption that everything would be fine from there. We didn't expect Timber to overrule it afterward, which is what caused the main amount of confusion and mess - but after some reflection, and the fact that if the original appeal was done without headmin review, this appeal seems like it will be fine to just simply allow to resolve naturally with the decision of Timberpoes and any (if required) further talk to DendyDoom.

Again, I'd like to apologize for how I acted and came across in both cases. My intention was only to be impartial, and I don't think I did the best job coming across as that. I hope that, going forward, we can all avoid situations like this, myself included, and use this appeal as something to reflect upon going forward in both naming policy, headmin interaction and player appeals.

We were also mistaken in asserting that it was in bad faith to write for headmin review. Admin discretion can only be handled by headmins and the only place to handle that are in appeals.
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dendydoom
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by dendydoom » #653840

My only addition to this (I'm sure everyone is flat out exhausted at having to read what I have to say) is that I'm grateful that you and the other headmins took the time to reconsider all of this. Thank you, genuinely.

There are no hard feelings about any of it. We disagreed, we got frustrated, we stepped back, calmed down and then we resolved it. Between you and me, my posts were dramatic. If there are lessons people can learn from this, then I shall endeavour to do the same and try to be more concise and to curtail that indignant voice that so often underlies my writing when I feel strongly about something.

Thanks again for all your time.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [Timberpoes] Dendydoom - Character name note appeal round 2 I want my bad name back boogaloo

Post by Timberpoes » #653867

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