[Lulufren] Ricardomilos

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suspiciouscrab
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[Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653428

BYOND account: Ricardomilos
Character name: Uranus XDE
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 7 days
Ban reason: https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... nknown.png
Time ban was placed: 4th October 16:15
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 191731
Your side of the story: At the very start of the shift I went around mugging assistants of their station credits so that I could buy the airpods item from the costume vendor (which is what the ban message referenced), I gave at least one of these people their money back and it had essentially no bearing on what happened later on in the shift. At some point I got into an altercation with Canelo Gonzales's security character which led to me being permabrigged. The permabrig turns out to be depressurized because of some broken windows, and as I die to oxyloss/pressure damage captain Sergeyevich Morozvov walks in, makes a blatant meta-reference to previous shifts to the effect of 'how the tables have turned', kills me after I crit to depressurization and then spends about five minutes gloating about how he killed me and fucking with my body/talking about how he's gonna round remove me to people around him. At this point I ahelp because the things he was saying on top of him randomly going into the permabrig to kill a prisoner supported what I'd been saying in Discord/previous ahelps about this player acting upon some sort of OOC beef he has with me, specifically mentioning previous incidents in the ahelp. The admin who took this ticket completely ignored all of this and interpreted my ahelp in the most bad-faith way possible, banning me without asking for my word in-game/on Discord.
Why you think you should be unbanned: The ban message is annoyingly worded because it picks out something I said at the shift start as hyperbole to make it look like I was going out of my way to fuck with the captain. I hadn't spoken to or seen the captain all shift and the only reason he appeared was because he knew I was in permabrig and would presumably have an excuse to shift remove me, hence him randomly walking into the permabrig and referencing previous shifts. The thing about me attacking the captain is completely wrong, at most I tried to throw him away and then escape via the window to space when it was obvious that he was going to kill me. The reason I made an ahelp at all was because this particular player, Medeelel18/Sergeyevich Morozvov, constantly goes out of his way to fuck with me in shifts for what I can only presume to be a metagrudge, including:

191598, where he rushed the antique laser to kill me and only me with it two times in a row.
191601 (not sure if this is correct but melonmesa isn't showing this round) where he shot me to near-crit as the captain over a fight in the brig between a lawyer and a sec officer and spent the rest of the shift trying to kill me for retaliating. Also (I think) ahelped me over the fight he started.
191527, where he took the fire axe and antique laser as the captain, randomly hit me with it roundstart because I'm "always a shitter" and then killed me and asked the CMO to do grief surgery on my body because I attacked an exposed grille in the bridge in response. He then later saw that I had my brain transplanted into a human body, lied about me being a changeling and tried to have me killed a second time.


On top of this is a bunch of times where he has straight up mentioned OOC misgivings he has with me in IC chat. The ban message makes it look like I essentially declared war on the entire station and then made an ahelp because I lost - in truth, if it was anyone I actually interacted with in that shift who killed me I wouldn't have even cared. Nothing that happened before the captain introducing himself to me for the first time and then killing me played into that ahelp, and I thought, from the way the captain acted, that this would have been obvious - I wouldn't have even cared if it was someone I hadn't seen before, and not a player who has spent like a week at this point talking about how much he hates me. Having this ticket twisted back onto me like this is frustrating because it makes me not want to bother with staff members, even in situations like this that are blatantly an OOC issue.
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by Lulufren » #653433

About the metagrudge claims:
If you feel like you're being metagrudged, that is a seperate issue and would warrant its own investigation, including ahelps. Although it is easier to make your case for that in a round where you didnt start out with a clear intent to grief.

In reference to what the actual ban was about:
  • You stated you "went around mugging assistants"
  • the logs confirm several such encounters
  • this is grief and makes you valid
  • additionally, the first interaction between you and the captain, according to the attack log, is you using punches/kicks/shoves and aggressive grabs on them
  • the captain, when attacked, may defend themselves
  • and in the case of an already-brigged serial griefer, has a good reason to apply lethals
the encounter starts with this section of the logs: (filtered for lines including the term "uranus")
03:48:22 ATTACK Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) kicks Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 88.7) (208, 173, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:22 ATTACK Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) shoved Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) (NEWHP: 88.7) (208, 173, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:23 ATTACK Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) grabbed Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) passive grab (NEWHP: 88.7) (209, 174, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:24 ATTACK Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) grabbed Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 88.7) (208, 175, 2) Prison Garden
03:48:33 ATTACK Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) kicked Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) (NEWHP: -11.6) (208, 173, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:34 ATTACK Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) kicked Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) (NEWHP: -21) (208, 173, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:35 ATTACK Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) suffered: Joint Dislocation | Damage: 16.5 (rolled 23/50.6381) (208, 173, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:35 ATTACK Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) kicked Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) (NEWHP: -38.2) (207, 172, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:37 ATTACK [table] shoved Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) with onto the table (table) (NEWHP: -38.2) (209, 173, 2) Prison Wing
03:48:38 ATTACK Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) got a stun punch with their previous punch Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) (NEWHP: -59.5) (208, 173, 2) Prison Wing
relevant parsed logs: Relevant rules and precedents:
  • Rule 1
Given these circumstances, the encounter in this round appears to be:
  • a griefing spree that led to perma
  • then an attack on the captain
  • followed by getting killed by the captain
  • and then ahelping that killing
In future instances of suspected metagrudge, i recommend:
  • disengaging/not partaking in the escalation
  • and ahelping so that we can establish wether or not an altercation is genuinely one-sided and unprovoked
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suspiciouscrab
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653458

Lulufren wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:01 pm[*]the captain, when attacked, may defend themselves[*]and in the case of an already-brigged serial griefer, has a good reason to apply lethals[/list]
I'm not denying this
Lulufren wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:01 pm
and ahelping so that we can establish wether or not an altercation is genuinely one-sided and unprovoked
You banned me for doing this
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by Lulufren » #653465

If you run around griefing and give the other player a good reason to kill you (especially as a head role with explicit authorisation to do so in case of being attacked) then that is probably not the round where you should be making that ahelp, and while i can't rule out the possibility of this being metagrudge-related and there being some previous grief from the other side in previous rounds without also checking those logs, i'll still be prioritizing the question wether or not that specific kill (in that specific round) that you ahelped was valid or not. With what the logs show, it was a very valid kill, and ahelping it has all the signs of banbait.

Otherwise these tickets and appeals would just cascade into infinite backlogs of but-they-did-it-first.
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suspiciouscrab
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653473

Lulufren wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:39 am If you run around griefing and give the other player a good reason to kill you (especially as a head role with explicit authorisation to do so in case of being attacked) then that is probably not the round where you should be making that ahelp, and while i can't rule out the possibility of this being metagrudge-related and there being some previous grief from the other side in previous rounds without also checking those logs, i'll still be prioritizing the question wether or not that specific kill (in that specific round) that you ahelped was valid or not. With what the logs show, it was a very valid kill, and ahelping it has all the signs of banbait.

Otherwise these tickets and appeals would just cascade into infinite backlogs of but-they-did-it-first.
I said like three times in my thread that I'm aware minor grief makes me valid (even though I'm not convinced this player even knew what I had done) and that my ahelp wasn't an ided, I just thought that a random player who has shittalked me innumerable times OOC coming up to me for the first time all shift, gloating about my situation as I'm about to die, killing me and then flexing my dead body to random sec officers and my 'accomplice' (???) looked really shitty as a reflection of stuff I've said in the past about that particular player. Your argument seems to be that because I shoved him (in order to escape to space and crystallize/possibly not die) I don't have a leg to stand on in this instance, and that's fair enough, but why couldn't you just say that? Why make a ban that frames it like I was trying to kill myself/fucking with this specific player all shift to make an ided on him? It's frustrating because stuff like this just makes me more averse to interacting with staff and bothering with the OOC channels in this community.
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by Lulufren » #653478

(even though I'm not convinced this player even knew what I had done)
If you compare the timestamps, and search for "uranus" in telecomms.txt you can see that there was enough chatter for them to know a good part of that

From
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 1/game.txt
[2022-10-04 15:29:27.900] SAY: Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) "time to" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (171,116,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:28.346] SAY: HentaiSatan/(Jay Sullivan) "i work here" (Brig (197,128,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:28.552] SAY: Addust/(Addust Johnson) "Security, Uranus has mugged me" (Command Hallway (136,116,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:28.574] SAY: Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) "mug" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (170,116,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.022] SAY: Sheltton/(Mario) "am going" (Mech Bay (130,119,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.077] EMOTE: *no key*/(cockroach) chitters (Abandoned Medbay (201,91,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.333] SAY: Spinosaurus_DOOM/(Spino Doom) "it was red" (Medbay Treatment Center (157,85,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.425] SAY: ICroogle/(Hitin Glass) "le factorio" (Chemistry (143,69,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.485] SAY: Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) "everyone" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (170,116,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.738] EMOTE: *no key*/(Jonesy) stretches out for a belly rub. (Unexplored Location (177,98,4))
[2022-10-04 15:29:29.930] SAY: Sheltton/(Mario) "to" (Mech Bay (130,119,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:30.193] SAY: AnAbsoluteDunce/(Flik) "yea?" (Medical (149,70,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:30.386] SAY: Sticky_piston_master/(Danil Bebrov) "salts" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (171,117,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:30.695] SAY: Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) "on the station" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (170,115,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:31.242] SAY: Sheltton/(Mario) "explode" (Mech Bay (130,119,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:31.378] SAY: Abominate/(Flint Cox) "then he started to beat me" (Kitchen (122,158,2))
[2022-10-04 15:29:31.701] SAY: Ricardomilos/(Uranus XDE) "until I die" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (170,115,2))

From
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... ecomms.txt
[2022-10-04 15:40:54.468] TCOMMS: Medeelel18/(Sergeyivich Morozov) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "He has reportedy assaulted two people with a curator and is in possesion of a detective's baton" (language: Galactic Common) (Chapel (174,65,2))
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suspiciouscrab
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653495

Would you be willing to unban me
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by Lulufren » #653511

Sorry, but no. You have a lot of bans and notes just in the last three months, enough to draw the picture of an unapologetic serial griefer.
Some time off of the server might be good foor you. And if the metagrudge issue with/from that other player persists after that, we can hopefully sort that out without the waters being muddied by a clear pattern of continued grief.
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suspiciouscrab
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653512

But you banned me for no reason
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suspiciouscrab
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653515

Why won't you just admit that I didn't banbait and that I wasn't trying to lie to/manipulate you instead of saying irrelevant shit about my note history
Lulufren wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:01 pmadditionally, the first interaction between you and the captain, according to the attack log, is you using punches/kicks/shoves and aggressive grabs on them[*]
Also why did you feel the need to use the fact that the logs show 'kick' as a synonym for paralyzing shoves to try and lie and imply that I harmed the captain
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iamgoofball
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by iamgoofball » #653518

suspiciouscrab wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:11 pm Why won't you just admit that I didn't banbait and that I wasn't trying to lie to/manipulate you instead of saying irrelevant shit about my note history
Lulufren wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:01 pmadditionally, the first interaction between you and the captain, according to the attack log, is you using punches/kicks/shoves and aggressive grabs on them[*]
Also why did you feel the need to use the fact that the logs show 'kick' as a synonym for paralyzing shoves to try and lie and imply that I harmed the captain
the words you're looking for are "i want a headmin to review this appeal"
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Lulufren
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by Lulufren » #653562

Why won't you just admit that I didn't banbait and that I wasn't trying to lie to/manipulate you instead of saying irrelevant shit about my note history
You ahelped a valid killing by the captain after you were running around mugging people and got brigged for it.
Also why did you feel the need to use the fact that the logs show 'kick' as a synonym for paralyzing shoves to try and lie and imply that I harmed the captain
I didnt imply harm (in the sense of lost HP or otherwise), but i did see these as aggressive actions that can be retaliated against fairly, on top of the previous griefing spree making you valid.

Anyway, i've let the headmins know that you (probably?) want a review of this appeal.
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suspiciouscrab
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by suspiciouscrab » #653770

iamgoofball wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:19 am the words you're looking for are "i want a headmin to review this appeal"
I Want A Headmin To Review This Appeal
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spookuni
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Re: [Lulufren] Ricardomilos

Post by spookuni » #654351

Upon review of this ban, we have decided not to overturn the applied ban-note (as the ban itself has already expired at this stage).

While we do think it is un-ideal for an a ban-baiting rule 1 ban to be applied in-absentia, upon review of the circumstances leading up to the ban, as well as the text of the inciting ahelp itself, we are forced to agree that this ahelp - even if not maliciously intended to unfairly weaponise admins - fits the criteria for a near textbook case of ban-baiting behaviour.

During the course of the round in question, you engaged in enough serial in-character grief that there is no question that an active head of staff would be justified in executing you, let alone an active head of staff that you attacked first, you admit this in this very appeal. Despite this however, the ahelp you sent before logging off makes no mention of the circumstances leading up to your execution, instead characterising the captain's actions as "randomly taking (you) out of permabrig after 0 interaction all shift just so he could behead (you). (ticket log available at https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/191731/4 ) This is, at best, a serious mischaracterisation of the circumstances that led to you ahelping, and at worst (though I do not personally believe this the case) a malicious attempt to weaponise administrators against someone you know was acting with justification.


While I understand that it can be frustrating when you feel that other players are not acting in the best faith, subverting the ahelp process helps nobody but them. If you face another circumstance where you believe a player is acting out a grudge against you while you know the circumstances are valid, I strongly recommend being upfront and honest with the reality of the situation rather than leaving out critical details (either intentionally or not) that will unfairly polarise the investigation. "The captain just killed me for valid reasons, but it feels like they're taking it too far and I think it might be because they don't like me OOC" (Or any other words to that effect) would not have caused you any trouble here, but trying to get them in trouble while conveniently leaving out the entire context is what drew administrative ire. Admins are people, they do not like the feeling that they have been lied to.
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