[ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

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ThatKindOfJack
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:06 am
Byond Username: ThatKindOfJack
Location: Canada

[ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by ThatKindOfJack » #656187

BYOND account: ThatKindOfJack
Character name: Michael Smith
Ban type: MRP
Ban length: 1 Day
Ban reason: As a non-antagonist assistant, left remote signal welding tank assemblies in front of the Bridge after the Captain named their station, "Welderbomb Station 13." Stated in ahelps that, "Random greif would be detonating them. Im just placing them out as decorations. They are no more dangerous then welding tanks as long as you dont send the code," right after somebody detonated the welding tanks. You are responsible for leaving things out in the open, especially if you have full knowledge that someone may use it to cause grief after leaving it in a comprisable position. (more in second note)
Time ban was placed: 2022-11-11 07:01:51
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 194111.

Your side of the story: The shift started weak. I was an assistant, greysuited, bored, and looking for a gimmick to have some fun with to pass some time. However inspiration was bestowed upon me from the most unlikely of locations. The announcement system pinged :Your captain has designated this station as "Welderbomb Station 13". The two assistant braincells I had on loan from the rest of the greytide hivemind turned over in my head. I could make this work. I tided into cargo and got me a few remotes and igniters and got to work strapping up the first welding tank I could find. I was going to do my captain and my station proud. I dragged my welderbomb into the HOPline and waited my turn as the HOP slammed down the safty shutters in what could only be a welderbomb PTSD panic. I roll the welderbomb a safe distance away and coax the HOP back out of their bunker. I'm here for one thing and one thing only. "Can I be the head of welder bombs?" I ask. A little sweet talking and bribery later I have a sweet new job title and me and my welderbomb are joined by another assistant and his weldertank. Together we strap them up in the command hallway. I then move them over to the show room as we had accumulated a few now and I didn't want to risk blowing up anything that mattered with them before we could move them to their new homes as show pieces. To my disappointment my coworkers starts playing with a flame thrower and the tanks are lost. I then setup two tanks up in front the bridge and secure them with some railings while I fetch some building supplies to place windows around them (These are the last two welding tanks in maints and like hell I'm letting them blow up before they can be appreciated as art). While I am in cargo getting my building supplies I receive an admin message asking me about the welding tanks, and spend a few minutes argueing with an admin about the legality of leaving welding tanks with detonators on them around. The welders are detonated by someone else during this exchange and I grab some tools and clean up the mess while continueing to argue with Harricross over my involvement. I was eventually given a one day ban after refusing to apologize for my actions. I never detonated the welding tanks, nor did my remote ping my indicating anyone else used it signal to detonate them.
Image

Why you think you should be unbanned: I feel that within the context of the situation, the actions I took where reasonable and the consequences of said actions are negligible and not deserving of punishment. I indirectly aided in causing roughly five to eight damaged glass windows, three to five broken disposals pipe segments, a few broken lights (Fixed them myself) and some other superficial station damage. The actions I took (Strapping remote detonators to several welding tanks placed about the station) where, in my opinion, appropriate for MRP given the context. Harricross makes an argument that leaving welding tanks around the station is grief in the same way leaving maxcaps around is grief, because some shitter will explode them. Welding tanks are extremely low explosive and are incapable of causing a hull breach by themselves, and can be found around the station in unsecured areas. Adding a detonator assembly does not increase their explosive ability, nor does it significantly enhance their accessibility to be detonated, as any shitter with a welder can ignite them. At the end of the day, Welderbomb Station 13 had a small explosion due to being welderbomb station 13. That is objectively funny and within the spirit of the game. By all means warn the shitter who blew up the welders. However I do not see my action in this context as rules breaking. (That said I understand that repeating this behavior outside the context of this round could be seen as grief)

References of good conduct: I'm a fucking angel and play AI as my main role. Outside of the odd incident I am the god damn picture of a good rules following player who attempts to make the game better for everyone around them.
Anything else we should know: I'd like to apologize if my tone toward Harriscross was rude during PMs, I got nothing against the admin and normally would prefer not to argue and instead just say sorry, but I feel fairly strongly that I am not in the wrong in this situation and would like to argue this judgement.
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Harricross
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:33 am
Byond Username: Harricross

Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by Harricross » #656191

Hi, thanks for making an appeal.

In short, I will be denying this appeal.

I will reiterate again, just because someone tells you to do something - it does not give you the excuse to do it if you know better especially with 891 hours of time on mainly Manuel. Leaving welding tanks in high traffic areas is a recipe for disaster and while not much was destroyed during that specific incident, it's not something we would like to see players doing on MRP. If you had chosen to do it in a secluded area such as the Captain's office with their permission to celebrate Welderbomb Station 13, it would've completely fine provided the explosion radius did not exceed outside of the office.

The maxcap example was not about the devastation, but was about taking responsibility if something does go wrong because of your actions. More examples would be leaving out combustible lemons, grenades or canisters of hazardous gases. You are responsible for what happens due to your negligence. This is completely different if you (although usually a bad idea) drag a welding tank with good intentions to a blob fight.

If you are unsatisfied with this response, you're more than welcome to take it up with the headmins.
ThatKindOfJack
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:06 am
Byond Username: ThatKindOfJack
Location: Canada

Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by ThatKindOfJack » #656195

I will reiterate again, just because someone tells you to do something - it does not give you the excuse to do it if you know better especially with 891 hours of time on mainly Manuel.
I understand that. I have no interest in shifting the blame upward. I think the freedom of the captain to willingly take actions that increase the amount of chaos/headache via acting like an idiot is a god given right of the role.
recipe for disaster and while not much was destroyed during that specific incident, it's not something we would like to see players doing on MRP. If you had chosen to do it in a secluded area such as the Captain's office with their permission to celebrate Welderbomb Station 13, it would've completely fine
Yes, and we where aware of that while doing it. We specifically did it in spite of that, as an attempt to create a more interesting round on what would have otherwise been a boring yellow orbit. And while I agree that having welderbombs going off all the time is definitely more Sybil's vibe, I think we should be allowed to have a little bit of welderbomb on MRP too. As a treat. If anything, its more appropriate here as we have a more mature player base here that should be able to be trusted slightly more. I do note believe that moving them to the captains office would have accomplished our goals of showing off our stations welderbombs.

The idea of leaving welding tank bombs out in public areas on the Welderbomb Station 13 and having them scuff up the command hall is exactly the story of ironic hubris and justice this game encourages. If you where to poll a group of 100 spacemen, and ask them what action they SHOULD do on Welderbomb Station 13, I would bet you more then half would say "Make a welderbomb". I fully believe this is a case where the rules should be allowed to be flexible, and that this situation should have been left to be resolved IC without admin interference.

I would like the second opinion of a headmin.
JupiterJaeden
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:03 am
Byond Username: JupiterJaeden

Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by JupiterJaeden » #656838

Hey, I was the captain of this round. First off, I'm really disappointed that my stupid joke (or, rather, the stupid joke that I went along with and amplified) ended up getting someone banned, even for a day. Sorry mate! I would have taken the heat instead, if it was an option.

Secondly, I would like to state that I really agree with this line from your appeal: "Welding tanks are extremely low explosive and are incapable of causing a hull breach by themselves, and can be found around the station in unsecured areas. Adding a detonator assembly does not increase their explosive ability, nor does it significantly enhance their accessibility to be detonated, as any shitter with a welder can ignite them."

I'm not gonna play stupid and pretend like I honestly thought some welding fuel tanks wouldn't detonate even though I was just cheekily calling them "art"(I did not, I should note, directly encourage detonation myself). Well, I mean, of course some of them were going to. But the reason why I went along with the joke anyways is because the "grief" caused by welder bombs is really minimal and unlikely to actually cause serious damage to the station or its personnel. And yes, I won't lie, the welder bombs occasionally going off were pretty funny.

In addition, adding detonators to them, while making them seem scarier, really does not increase the grief or potential grief caused by them, because as pointed out they are already extremely easy to detonate. In fact, illustrating this point, in this case I'm pretty sure the detonators were not even used, it was someone else directly lighting it.

In the end, yes, I fully admit that a gimmick like this in more in the spirit of LRP than MRP. I don't plan on repeating it on manuel (or on an LRP server, for that matter). However I really do not think that ThatKindOfJack deserved this ban for doing something that ultimately was in the spirit of the round and caused very, very limited damage (damage that they were then subsequently able to repair easily).
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Harricross
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:33 am
Byond Username: Harricross

Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by Harricross » #657074

Hi, I've decided to respond again as I have extra time to do so.

First of all, fuel tanks being, "extremely low explosive" is completely wrong as they have a detonation range of Devastation: 0 Heavy :1 Light :4-5 depending on type of welding tool. Heavy: 1 has a chance to cause a hull breach by destroying unreinforced floors. You can probably understand that blowing up welding tanks in front of the bridge poses a pretty annoying risk of spacing the hallway. You are free to test this out at your own leisure if you care at all about being correct.
I tided into cargo...
...in my opinion, appropriate for MRP given the context
What you have stated already so far is not appropriate for MRP without context. Tiding is allowed within reason such as needing something when the department is completely unresponsive or if there are obvious threats that warrant tiding into somewhere with good intentions. e.g. blob and needing a fireaxe to get better angles on the blob.
I understand that. I have no interest in shifting the blame upward. I think the freedom of the captain to willingly take actions that increase the amount of chaos/headache via acting like an idiot is a god given right of the role.
This is irrelevant to the appeal, the ban was applied because of your refusal to take responsibility for your actions after saying in the ahelp, "I wont in this senario, I think you are being unfair and your opinion would not hold up to peer review in this senario. I wont apologize for taking part non-disruptively in a small bit of station wide mischof that someone else ruined. I believe the context of the senario makes my actions apropraite and not grief. The captain themself has even stated they where for art. Either toss me a ban for this so I can take it up on the forums or forgive it. You aint getting an apology over this."

The ban would not have even been a note if you had just owned up to it and took responsibility that you would accountable for leaving out explosives in a high traffic area. It's not hard to understand that regardless of station name, you probably should not be using poor excuses to leave out things that you know that can and will explode from even the slightest of damage involving projectiles and plasmafloods.

From the roleplay rules:
3. Chain of command and security are important. This also means that if you're in the chain of command, and especially if you're in Security, you're expected to put in some effort and do your job.
You can have whacky gimmicks, you can do funny stuff, but we ask people to be reasonable which was not demonstrated by you or command that shift and each player was talked to appropriately.
I think we should be allowed to have a little bit of welderbomb on MRP too. As a treat.
You take that up with policy discussion instead of being very adamant in your ahelp that you, "...[are] in no way accountable in this senario," for dragging fuel tanks out in the open while fully knowing with 994 rounds total that something can and will blow them up directly or indirectly.

Other admins or staff may read more of the ahelp if they so choose at: https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/194111/4

You may review your ahelp at https://atlantaned.space/
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Vekter
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Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by Vekter » #657261

I'll be resolving this if OP hasn't responded in the next 24 hours.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Timberpoes
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Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by Timberpoes » #657273

Vekter wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:45 am I'll be resolving this if OP hasn't responded in the next 24 hours.
The player has requested a headmin review. The appeal shouldn't be resolved without either the player being happy with the outcome or, if that doesn't happen in the interim, the headmins reviewing it.
ThatKindOfJack wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:18 pm ...
I would like the second opinion of a headmin.
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spookuni
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Re: [ Harricross] ThatKindOfJack - Welderbomb Station 13 Ban

Post by spookuni » #657290

We have decided to uphold this note (as the ban has already long expired), it's standard practice that non-antagonists are responsible for dangerous items they produce or accumulate in public areas - while it is not inherently against the rules to do something silly like playing along along (or inciting) a stationwide gimmick around welderbombs, when you do you are responsible for keeping them safe, and assume responsibility if something goes wrong in a way directly amplified by your actions that you could have reasonably foreseen or stopped - gathered welding tanks in a public area being set off by any of a myriad of accidental or intentional methods by passers by would fall into this category.

(I missed the request for review in this thread when going over our inbox due to it being in the middle of the thread, entirely my bad, sorry! - Spook)

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