[<Iain0>] Moocow - FlashBlacklist

MooCow12 · Post by **MooCow12** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:04 am #661224

BYOND account: Moocow12
Character name: Makes-The-Abomination
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Eternity
Ban reason: As a non antag, created multiple devices that are effectively just a timer connected to a flash. This predictably caused security to think there was a revolution and the player was implanted. Carried on making the devices anyway, and in ahelp argued their defense for over 20 minutes before simply having to be told not to go around spamming flashes to the point that security reacts to them as a revolutionary and mindshields them.
Time ban was placed: 2023-01-08 21:09:50
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 197869
Your side of the story:

Last night I discovered timer flashes and tested them with 11 second intervals to see how effective it was in melee and to amusement someone kept hitting themselves while trying to hit me while I just walked away from them.

I went onto terry today and tried to test it out again, this time with 10 second interval timers and called myself the sun god, I did laps around the station garnering infamy to passively try to get people to hit me and got sec`s attention after a couple people went after me and Lukas as usual goes after me for implant.

After the implant I went back to sci and saw 2 of my flashes were burnt out so I set them all to 11 second intervals to see if those eventually burn out at which point Iain0 gives himself an audience with me to tell me that what I was doing was wrong because people assumed that the sound of flashing automatically means revs.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Because revs being falsely announced over the mere sound of flashing is a logical folly that should not be. If the mere existence of an antagonists causes the sound of a widely used item (cheap, mass-produceable, silicons/sec literally use it) to be blacklisted from creative use then that antagonist needs changes or the policy band-aid to support the existence of the failed design is slipping and needs to be replaced

Not only that but considering how little of a requirement there is for someone to be allowed to call revs without concrete proof such as just hearing a flash is an issue of its own, its blatantly rule 12 to rally the station and its social environment to reform against the threat of an antagonist that you have no concrete proof of, why should I, as an individual exploring and experimenting with powerful strategies be limited by another individual assuming what I am doing is antagonistic based on meta-knowledge about specific antags.

If I was to naturally escalate against a head of staff that wronged me and round removed them rightfully just for someone else to call revs upon witnessing it, does that mean I should be in trouble for faking revs? Should I as a borg be in trouble for using one of my best tools to debilitate someone and then someone else calling revs because they heard it?

This is not the fault of the person utilizing their equipment this is the fault of the first person that distributes information of its usage in an attempt to connect it to an antagonist.

And another thing, why is meta-breaking allowed and even encouraged with other antagonists? Why are we allowed to draw fake cult runes at round start? Why was I allowed to make runed golems as a xenobiologist for their mechanical advantage, or why am I allowed to wear a syndicate hardsuit as a non-antagonist for its mechanical advantage (and risk nukeops being called) YET THE MERE SOUND OF A FLASH JUSTIFIES RADICAL CHANGES TO THE ROUND.

Anything else we should know: I want headmin review because me and Iain0 are going to go nowhere with this (20 minute arguing) and we will most certainly die on different hills until policy is either restated, reinforced, or reformed by the headmins.

And if policy is restated and this note is not overturned I want clear parameters where I will know when I will be allowed to use this mechanic, as a sec officer/head of staff? Within my maint bases to enforce home defense? Within my department? etc. (Iain0 is more than welcome to brainstorm on this one)

MooCow12 · Post by **MooCow12** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:11 am #661227

Oh and just had another thought, I think its actually the policy that targets faking revs that is why people are so quick to calling out revs over flashes because why would anyone ever fake revs when policy bans it (more metagaming)

Also gonna iterate, I had no intent of faking revs I have several reasons to be playing with flashes, the only bad faith behavior on my part was the temporarily blinding (not debilitating) of people which is much less grief than flashbangs,spacelube,shoving,pepperspraying.

Post by **iain0** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:34 am #661288

From my point of view, there's an important first factor which is you're a player with over 1800h on TG alone, you have centcom bans on Fulp so your actual played hours are in excess of this, like, you have over 2000 hours playing this game easily. This factors in in a few places.

This all starts for me like any typical 'not a revolution' thing where what gets my attention is actually the amount of comms traffic about revs, knowing (and rechecking) that there aren't any revs I'll usually go pull the combat logs and see whats got the crew into a frenzy. This process is kinda 50/50 and sometimes I'll just find a few different people in different places doing some minimal flashing and if I'm really curious I might go drill the chat logs, but thats usually where that ends. On the other hand if I see some spam from individuals I'll focus in on them and see whats up and the conversation usually goes that its a surprise its not allowed and they get a note. Pleasantly I don't think I've ever had a repeat case from a note.

From my point of view the case is kinda sealed from this point already, if you've actively whipped the crew up into thinking there are revs then intended or not you have successfully drawn some fake revs traffic, and as I only pay intermittent attention to this stuff, it getting to the point that I notice the crew noticing revolution like activity probably means there's something going on.

Relevant source for logs : Parsed Logs for round 197869

So, I notice the traffic and pull the logs, parse for 'flash' and here they are (source : attack.txt.gz with lines matching 'flash' in them)

► Show Spoiler

Spoilered because ... wew. I noted the section where the admin help starts based on its timestamp, its basically a page or two up from the bottom (depending how this paginates).

The logs are actually pretty bad here, they log the recipients of the AOE flashes but most of those have no source. I actually go to the thunderdome to test this out (see 20:40:52), where by I see me aoe flashing registers both the source and victim. Wondering if there's a bug with logging (as there arguably is) I move on, but eventually track you down from the noise. and of course the weird mindshield you have, and proceed from there, firstly perusing your inventory to find the multiple timer flash combos... and thus i start the ticket with "mmm, interesting", because it kinda is.

The non AOE flashes are more parsable and actually look like that fairly normal 'some events here and there' that i'd expect (spoilered here for no particular reason)

► Show Spoiler

Here's the chat logs for the round, up to the point I bwoink you, focussing on the words "flash" or "rev"

► Show Spoiler

"revolution seems likely" "we might have revs" "sounds like revs for sure"... This is the sorta thing I'm likely to have read and cued off, why is the crew so convinced? Well, this is literally all you, because the ammount of non AOE flashing going on is very much background noise, the expected ammount of flashing. Here you have many many people all reaching the conclusion there's probably a revolution (tis always a 'probably' until the implants start producing results), to the point they hunt you down and implant you. Thankfully Lukas is one of the more experienced HOS's and is also likely quite familiar at dealing with non-revolution-revolutions. Note how the crew evolve from 'possible' to 'probable' and 'likely' over time ; yes, some ammount of flash activity isn't a revolution, and some of these "possible"s go away. But when the reports keep coming in something pretty weird is up and its probably a revolution. More probably than someone with some weird timer-flash combo 5 times in their bag.

But this can also get out of hand, this one is handled well but I've seen these fake revolutions reach the point where a dozen or so people get mindshielded before people get bored and give up, or even just instantly order them, that kinda thing ends up sabotaging any actual revolutionaries that can spawn.

The point I really find hard to understand in all this is your lack of connection between flashes and a revolution. The 'hard' tells for a revolution are head bashing deconverts, or more likely, mind shields. But no-one does these until a revolution is strongly suspected, which leads onto the soft tells ; namely heads of staff getting ganked by 4+ people and an increase in flashing are the 'soft tells'. I've seen some solo or bombing based kills on heads which really don't give the game away (and maybe you're dead by that point) so the ongoing heightened flashing is really what drives into actually hard checking for revs. Which will disprove /all/ fake revs, so the line for faking a revolution is before this point. Remember also that people can't see everything you see or know all you know, some of these people are just reacting to the sounds as you drive by flash all over the place, others maybe see you out the corner of their window, maybe there's an actual targetted flash at the same time and suddenly it all looks very convincing.

Intended or not, you managed to make a lot of people posit there was a revolution, to the point countermeasures were taken. Honestly I feel this alone says things have probably gone a bit too far with your toy.

But you have 2000+ hours in this game, you KNOW that mass flash spam is associated with a revolution, so why, knowing that, would you go ahead and do it? That's the part that really makes me question.

And so you have a note that points out that mass flashing making people think there's a revolution is "predictable" (because sure is to me), and asked "not to go around spamming flashes to the point you get anti-revolution implanted", as thats probably when you've driven enough paranoia into the crew.

I'm not really sure why you needed to run all over the station flashing to 'test' something either, I feel you should likely just confine your testing to science. If you found some cool new game breaking meta or whatever this is (has something to do with a defensive weapon, and I did notice on the later round as seccie that you armed a bunch more of these combined with a health analyzer, and that I thought was pretty neat, long as you disarm it appropriately, though I suspect as with all indiscriminate AOE weapons you'll eventually end up hitting someone friendly during a close range fight which might have consequences, but thats a potential future problem), but essentially it's something more refined than just mass spamming flashes for funs, and you could likely test this in your department. Instead the logs above for flashing have you everywhere from medical to science to main halls to maints, flashing everywhere (like a revolution does).

In short, don't really have much against your gimmick, when you refine it down to what it is and apply it properly, but if you're just running around all over the station like mad flash spamming I genuinely don't know how you missed the obvious conclusion that this would trigger revolution concerns. And that's a lot of different people you get worrying about it.

Intended or not, for many its a possible or probable revolution until finally the hard confirm proves it isn't. And thus I ask you not to do this again.

Post by **iain0** » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:45 am #661289

And regarding my idea of appropriate use, in department for defence is fine, in your little maints bases in the starboard aft of meta maint (where i usually see you) for defence is fine, as a seccie or head of staff when you're in a fight is fine (please disable once the fight ends). So basically everything you listed and everything that's a practical use case really.

It's the running around wildly all over the place with unrestrained flashing that I don't really like, because that's just predictably gonna feed into a fake rev impression, and the quantity above all is what likely kicks all this into motion.

MooCow12 · Post by **MooCow12** » Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:25 am #661483

My hours in this game works in my favor, not yours.

Flashes are a spammable weapon that have existed in the meta for a long time up until they were nerfed to only stun people that were facing the right way which resulted in the downfall of them going from being used by pretty much everyone that could get one (which was pretty much everyone) to a minority of players that only reserve them to counter silicons.

Revs have also existed far longer, since before this nerf was implemented.

Now it is clear that flashes falling out of meta has pushed this mindset that lots of flashes going on automatically means revs, something that I do not think the original creator of revs had in mind when they made the main method of conversion such a ubiquitous and relevant item, and policy isn`t doing the antagonist much good either.

I found another use for them, its time they return from their position as the smoking gun for revs existing, something that I do not believe was ever intended.

And all that takes is for a bunch of people to be allowed to flash a lot again (although this time itl probably be fewer individuals rather than flashes being used by a majority due to policy fright), rev or not.

Post by **iain0** » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:25 am #661488

There's still a lot of flashing (see the targeted flashing above), they're not "unused" and every round has an amount of usage roughly comparable, hence "normal background flashing" being that versus "elevated amounts of flashing" which stir the senses towards suspecting revolution. Multiple reports of excessive flashing over an extended period across different locations is a good reason to start pulling mindshields for some select individuals, and like it or not, this IS how revolutions often start to play out (and I don't mean just the revs actions, I mean this is also what triggers the start of counter-revolutionary preparation/activities).

Use of flashes is regular and usually "with good reason" (as in, used in combat to stun someone), similarly your ultimate plan (would have helped understand what you were doing if I'd understood from the start) with the health sensor attached flash array is fine, what I don't think is OK is just spamming them constantly on a timer while running around the station for no reason for over 15 minutes, that will, and did, tick all the boxes of being 'more than background flashing' and events proceed from there down the initial anti-revolution path. Your experiment there could have been done as well at home as anywhere else.

Like it or not, gauging the amount of flashing as "normal" or "excessive" is an important hint (soft tell) towards revs, if that's not intended, then there's probably simple adjustments that can be made, but I feel like its an intended part of the design, and the size of those flash logs is clearly "excessive" rather than "practical / useful / normal" amounts.

In my opinion, undoing this note and saying its perfectly okay to wander around mass spam flashing to the point multiple crew think there's a revolution and you get implanted over it would be a bad direction for the meta on Terry and may well encourage it as a regular activity since its now 'protected' and I don't think that's a good outcome.

Also, what counts as faking a revolution will be difficult to gauge if making the crew paranoid enough to call for (and start) mindshielding doesn't hit the mark. The screams of 'viva' are just /obvious/ fake revs, fake revs dont have to scream viva, and any real revolution only usually screams viva once its already 'loud' (because otherwise you're outing your team which is potentially just sabotage?)

Anyway, think that's about a summary form of the whole point of view I have, I would guess you still wish to take this to headmins?

MooCow12 · Post by **MooCow12** » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:40 am #661490

Yes I wholeheartedly believe that I have exhausted all my points on why flash spam should be flash spam and nothing more, no automatic connection to revs and no policy reinforcing this fabled connection.

You are arguing with my actions basing them as wrong due to policy, and I am arguing against that policy, headmins are the ones that control policy, not you, and I think they should have a say in this discussion.

Post by **iain0** » Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:49 am #661492

I'm not "controlling" policy, that has a specific route and I don't even have write access to it. I'm just implementing my interpretations, as is what we do.

Notified headmins as per your request.

MooCow12 · Post by **MooCow12** » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:16 am #661494

I never said you were controlling policy I said your arguement is based on existing policy which you have no control over, headmins do, which is why they are important to include. This entire time I was not arguing about what I did while all you could do based on your position was pull up logs and say I did x which caused x, you are only enforcing policy and trying to provide evidence that I breached policy while the entire time I have argued against policy, we are on entirely different playing fields.

As I said earlier, policy needs to be restated (Nothing changes I`m just wrong in this case), reinforced (I`m double wrong), reformed (I`m right), or respecified (I`m less right). Extreme usage of flashing should not be considered faking a revolution, that is my final stance and within my own argument I have made it clear that is a problem that exists outside of just policy but policy is part of the problem.

Policy is a problem that headmins were designated to tackle and their decision based on this is another chance for them to steer the community, because of that I want them to take their time to consider everything so there is no rush.

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:24 am

The issue with false revs has to do with intentional disruption of the round, which doesn't seem to be the case here with MooCow.

We'd like to recommend to MooCow in the future that they let the RD (or the AI or Sec if there's no RD) know about their experiments, as proper departmental communication could have avoided this whole thing in the first place.

Rave: Overturn
San: Overturn
Spook: Overturn

/tg/Station 13

[<Iain0>] Moocow - FlashBlacklist

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