[TheDragmeme] combat mech

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scremboi
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[TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by scremboi » #663483

BYOND account: screm boi

character name: harry altman

ban type: server

ban length: 7 days

ban reason: I made a combat mech and killed a borg and disconnected mid ticket

time ban was placed: 2023-01-27 18;14;10

server you were playing on when banned: manuel

round id which ban was placed: 199016

your side of the story: yes i did make a combat mech with an lmg and drill but i didnt really used it on anyone besides that borg who was i presume malf since i think it was malf because we were handling a malfed ai at that time and when they entered the room while we were trying to go in the upload captain immidietly flashed them so i thought it was a signal to attack them which i did and killed them in self defense since we didnt know if we'd attacked or not and when we reseted ai it was infact malfed, and for the reason i disconnecting mid ticket because the admin stayed quiet for some time after i gave my response i thought it was good so i then went to the fight the blob for a few minutes and still didnt get a respond and when i died i already thought the ticket was closed so knowing i wont be revived i just disconnected to maybe play the next round after i was over

though i was also not very clear with why i made a combat mech and killed the borg so there may be some misunderstanding with that since when i was questioned i just said i was bored and it was lowpop and thats why is made the combat mech since i see people make combat mechs from time to time i also thought it should be fine since no one seems bothered by it, and i think they also misunderstood when i said i was bored and thought i meant i was bored and thats why i killed the borg, also im not sure if this is relevant but my mech name was "child murderer"

why you think you should be unbanned: im sorry that i made a combat mech without being a antag i suppose and try not to put a gun on my mechs and also not kill borgs without knowing if theyre truly malf or not and also try not to disconnect without knowing if the ticket is actually over or not
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Timberpoes
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Timberpoes » #663489

Full ban reason:
Banned from the server for 1 week - As a non antagonist built a combat mech named "child murderer" and killed a borg for the justified reason of "they were bored" and "it was lowpop". You being bored is not valid justification for breaking the rules. You have been warned already for doing things for no reason, and you disconnected mid ticket. This is an egregious case of you just doing shit with no consideration for the rules and the people around you. This ban has been escalated into a week ban due to the disconnect and egregious situation.
Disconnecting mid ticket isn't against the rules. Players are free to disconnect whenever they like and there's no expectation that a player will remain online for an entire ticket.

The problem with disconnecting mid ticket is it deprives you of the opportunity to put your side of the story forwards and explain your actions. That's why bans for players that disconnect during tickets tend to be higher - they deprive themselves of the chance to explain themselves.

Your ban should not have been explicitly increased by your decision to disconnect. The only reason the admin team need to comment on a player disconnecting mid-ticket is to explain to other admins that the decision was made without the player having put their side of the story forward to the banning admin, and usually encourages the player to come to the forums to explain their side of the story if they disagree with the note/ban reason.

The transcript of your ticket is below:
From Ticket #2 during round 199016 on Manuel
Ticket opened at 2023-01-27 17:52:25 by thedragmeme
Log:
17:52:25: Ticket Opened by-thedragmeme: Hey, why are you making a combat mech with no reason to do so and attacking people as a non antagonist with said mech? Also hella bad taste in mech name, dude.
17:53:08: Reply from-scremboi: man im bored its low pop and theres nothing to do and ive yet to kill someone besides that one borg shell
18:04:11: Client disconnected
18:14:09: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has created a temporary 1 week server ban for Screm_boi.
18:14:10: Resolved by Thedragmeme
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.14.0

There was an 11 minute gap between your reply and your disconnection, with no admin response in the meantime.

For the record, it is not normal to punish a player harder for disconnecting during a ticket where the admin hasn't replied to them for over 10 minutes.

I have nothing to add with regards to the rest of the appeal.
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Drag
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Drag » #663644

The decision to extend the ban was based more on the situation, rather than the disconnect. The wording is absolutely poor on my part. There was an 11-minute gap due to the investigation I was in. I was having to dig up attack logs from the mech, as the logs are not tied to the mob who is using the mech.

The name "child murderer" for a mech is an incredibly bad-taste name, please don't try to use it again.

I did not realize at the moment just how much time had passed, as I was under a fair amount of exhaustion and pressure during the investigation itself. All I saw was someone disconnected mid-ticket.

My main grievances at current are:

When I asked you why you attacked someone, the reason you gave me was "I was bored" and "its low pop". You never mentioned to me your reasoning was because you suspected a malf ai/borg. The ticket would have ended there had you just told me.

You have been noted for doing self-antagonistic things on Manuel for no reason before, and in the ticket, you tell me you were just bored. It's okay to arm up against threats (especially borgs because FUCK the stun arm) but just...tell me why you did. There's nothing wrong with just making a mech either since the roboticist bounty system has mechs in it. I would have been a little >:| at you if you had it armed before hearing about a threat (or looking for people to go after unprompted for that matter), but using it in response to a threat you were told about is completely valid.

In the ticket I asked you:
and attacking people as a non-antagonist with said mech
It's kind of a big deal when your response is "you were bored" because now Im having to scramble for logs to see who ELSE was possibly attacked.

I'll go ahead and lift the ban, and remove the note since there was some miscommunication. In the future please make sure to read what the admin is asking you carefully, and if you're not sure please say so.
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Drag
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Drag » #663646

Actually: Fuck removing the note. I will be keeping the note in regards to this but removing the part where you disconnected. If you had appealed earlier I would have reduced this to a one-day ban, but that time has already passed. Looking in the logs it looks like you went after the borg AFTER the silicon was reset. Don't go hunting after people after the situation has been resolved.
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Drag
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Drag » #663648

Note updated to:
As a non antagonist built a combat mech named "child murderer" and killed a borg for the justified reason of "they were bored" and "it was lowpop" in tickets. You being bored is not valid justification for breaking the rules. You have been warned already for doing things for no reason. Later appealed and changed their reasoning to them responding to a malf/subverted ai threat. Please make sure you inform admins of what you are doing and why are you doing it when they ask.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Timberpoes » #663695

Drag wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:37 am Looking in the logs it looks like you went after the borg AFTER the silicon was reset. Don't go hunting after people after the situation has been resolved.
Can you confirm this?

Basic log dive revealed:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... attack.txt

Code: Select all

[2023-01-27 17:38:56.588] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) fired the bullet at [floor] with the �Ultra AC 2 from the child murderer at Bridge (Bridge (113,136,4))
[2023-01-27 17:38:56.690] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) shot devinxoptoh/(C.H.I.P) with the bullet from inside the child murderer (NEWHP: 57)  (Bridge (113,136,4))
<Snip shooties>
[2023-01-27 17:39:00.005] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) shot devinxoptoh/(C.H.I.P) with the bullet from inside the child murderer (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (113,136,4))
Borg killed 17:39:00

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... ilicon.txt

Code: Select all

[2023-01-27 17:39:35.464] SILICON: LAW: SirNooben/(Johnny Rocks) used �'Reset' AI module on AJK737/(XS-03 Apollo) from AI Upload Chamber (112,129,4)., , impacting synced borgs XS-03 Apollo Default Shell-803(), C.H.I.P(), 
AI reset 35 seconds later at 17:39:35.

There was another series of attacks about 3 minutes later

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... attack.txt
Filtered to C.H.I.P.

Code: Select all

[2023-01-27 17:42:01.456] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) pushed *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:01.636] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) fired the bullet at *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the �Ultra AC 2 from the child murderer at Bridge (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:01.711] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) shot *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the bullet from inside the child murderer (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:01.814] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) fired the bullet at *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the �Ultra AC 2 from the child murderer at Bridge (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:01.915] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) shot *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the bullet from inside the child murderer (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:02.014] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) fired the bullet at *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the �Ultra AC 2 from the child murderer at Bridge (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:02.113] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) shot *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the bullet from inside the child murderer (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:02.211] ATTACK: [child murderer] Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) fired the �Ultra AC 2, targeting C.H.I.P. (Bridge (118,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:04.223] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (119,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:05.833] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (120,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:06.928] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (120,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:08.009] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (120,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:09.997] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (120,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:10.990] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (120,134,4))
[2023-01-27 17:42:12.031] ATTACK: Screm_boi/(Harry Altmann) attacked *no key*/(C.H.I.P) with the child murderer (COMBAT MODE: 1 (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Bridge (120,134,4))
But looking at the NEWHP value starting at the push, the borg was still already very much dead at that point in time.

Quoting the OP themselves:
though i was also not very clear with why i made a combat mech and killed the borg so there may be some misunderstanding with that since when i was questioned i just said i was bored and it was lowpop and thats why is made the combat mech since i see people make combat mechs from time to time i also thought it should be fine since no one seems bothered by it, and i think they also misunderstood when i said i was bored and thought i meant i was bored and thats why i killed the borg, also im not sure if this is relevant but my mech name was "child murderer"
and relooking at the ticket opening question:
17:52:25: Ticket Opened by-thedragmeme: Hey, why are you making a combat mech with no reason to do so and attacking people as a non antagonist with said mech? Also hella bad taste in mech name, dude.
17:53:08: Reply from-scremboi: man im bored its low pop and theres nothing to do and ive yet to kill someone besides that one borg shell
Is there some possibility that what the player said in their OP of this ban appeal is true and they simply answered the "Hey, why are you making a combat mech with no reason to do so" portion?

The "and attacking people as a non antagonist with said mech?" portion, if I look at the logs, doesn't seem to be a correct assertion to have made. The only player they attacked with the mech was a borg, and that would appear to be under justified circumstances. Speaking from experience as an admin, jumping right out of the gate with an accusation in a ticket can definitely cause confusion and misunderstanding in a player when they respond, especially if the accusation is not completely accurate.

Following that, is there any possibility that even the amended note is a result of a continued miscommunication that the player was not completely at fault in, and was corrected in this appeal by their expanded explanation - And perhaps could the note be further revisted in light of what the player has said and the ticket you opened with them as a whole?
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Misdoubtful
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Misdoubtful » #663696

viewtopic.php?p=574168#p574168

Tossing the last policy thread that has some relation to MRP mechs here for some sort of context.
To make things a bit more clearer an edit to MRP Rule 7 has been made,
Do not powergame. Powergaming is gearing up or preparing in other ways to face an issue that is not related to your job and is not currently a credible threat. Someone going missing on the station, and then you making a stunprod to wield whenever you go into maint is powergaming. However; knowing there have been murders occurring across the station, and grabbing a stunprod while you go to fix wires in maint is fine.
Also to address a few general questions,

if you are creating something directly related to your job you’re probably fine. This will still likely tend towards a case by case basis as it’s a bit unrealistic to make rules for every single situation relating to this.
For example, creating a grenade to detonate on your death as a chemist is pretty dumb if you don’t have a substantial reason for it, but equipping one when you’re going to try to stop nukies from detonating the nuke is more understandable.
Making a mech as a roboticist is generally fine, that’s quite explicitly their job.


Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes, my reasoning pretty much falls in line with whats been posted above. There's always going to be some exceptions and I think it'd be crazy to try to address every potential powergaming scenario. So I wanted to keep this somewhat open ended but emphasize that generally its fine to do things within
the confines of your job, I mean its your damn job for god's sake. Its why you got hired on the station as a wageslave for Nanotrasen.
Phuzzylodgik: Yes.
TWATICUS: Yes.
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Drag
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Drag » #663701

Borg killed 17:39:00
I must have misinterpreted this log with another one, I will disregard the timing of the borgs death.
Is there some possibility that what the player said in their OP of this ban appeal is true and they simply answered the "Hey, why are you making a combat mech with no reason to do so" portion?
I'm hesitant to extend good faith in this case for two reasons: 1. My question was not confusing, there was no hidden meaning behind any of what I opened the ticket with. I asked two questions, why the mech was made and why the mech was used. The first part being "I was bored" is valid, but it's not valid for the second part. I'm failing to see how else I should have interpreted their response in the moment. 2. I feel like this is setting a standard if you claim in an appeal you just didn't read the ahelp ticket properly and you just misunderstood this puts admins more on the line then they already are. Once again: There was nothing confusing about my question. Poor grammar? Maybe. However, it is not my fault as an administrator that the individual I am asking a question to failed to read the entire question and gave me what was interpreted by three total admins (myself, Chesh, and PositiveEntropy were all present during this situation) as a bad faith response. Should I have log dived faster so I could have asked more questions? Yeah probably, my log diving skills are not up to par with other admins and that is no fault but my own.

Additionally this appeal is frankly hard to read and interpret.

I will edit the note down to warning about making sure to fully read any future ahelps, and specifying if they need clarification in the future to do so. However I feel it is important to keep this incident at the very least noted for any future encounters.
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Drag
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Re: [TheDragmeme] combat mech

Post by Drag » #663707

Note reduced to: "Was asked to ensure they read the entirety of an ahelp ticket in the future to avoid confusion. If they were unsure of what an admin was asking them was asked to specify in the ticket that they were confused."

Additionally I will start trying to keep my questions either one ahelp at a time or in one sentence at a time to also assist with reducing the confusion that could come out of tickets.
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