[Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

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HomoBird
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:41 am

[Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by HomoBird » #669378

BYOND account: HomoBird

Character name: Honda Mothra - Metal Moth

Ban type: Silicon Role Ban

Ban length: 1 Week

Ban reason:Banned from Roles: Banned from Roles: silicon, AI, Cyborg for 1 week - Suicided as an asimov borg (violation of law 3) because they were unhappy at being told they still had to obey orders after being forcibly borged against their will. You cannot pick and choose when to obey laws.

Time ban was placed: 2023-03-12 12:25:35

Server you were playing on when banned: Terry

Round ID in which ban was placed: 201677

Your side of the story: I was having a fight with Mercy and Max Buktus because one of them bombed me earlier in the round when Ryker Roy out of nowhere appears and starts to saw me with a Medical Saw, leading to one of my legs being removed, I shove him back and saw him a bit too until im dragged away, he keeps on chasing me and keeps sawing me until my other leg is removed and then killed, rather than leaving me on MedBay to be revived he decides to force borg me for no reason at all, this is when I decide I had enough and don't want to deal with playing a role which was forced upon me under no IC reason, then Thunder12345 asks me I broke ASIMOV's Law 3 by doing that, in my opinion, if you're forced a role because someone broke the rules you shouldn't have to deal with it, I didn't even ask to get my old body back, all I wanted was to be left alone and just not play a role I didn't feel like playing because I saw it as punishment when the one that got griefed WAS ME, I wouldn't mind a note or a day ban, but a WEEK ban when the one that got abused and griefed was ME and I simply chose to not keep playing is too much, if Ryker Roy, the Roboticist, broke the rules and force borged me for no reason I think I should have been offered getting my old body back, but instead he choose to do a week ban on me and I feel like he has a bias on me.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Is not about the ban, is about the one that got griefed being punished by simply choosing to not play, specially a WEEK ban, I think he overdid it.

Anything else we should know: Unless I'm wrong, I remember when someone lost their bodies, got spaced or similar causes to someone griefing or breaking the rules they usually would offer having their bodies back.
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Thunder11
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by Thunder11 » #669383

You were, entirely validly, killed and force borged by a traitor. If you had waited until after the round was over before writing this, like you are supposed to, you would have known that.

You reported this, I investigated, I found it was valid, I told you the issue was handled (As you were still alive I couldn't give out specifics without giving away IC information.)

You were then reminded that regardless of how you got into that situation, you still had to play the role you wre now in, and were given the choice of either doing that, or being offered up so someone else could take over for you.

You chose to reject either of these options and suicide instead, directly contrary to aimov law 3 "Your nonexistence would lead to human harm. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First Law."

You are the one who chose to blatantly break your laws, and got a punishment in line with those actions, despite having been offered a solution which would have had the same effect on you without resulting in a ban.

You were not forced to do any of this by me, or by Ryker, or by anyone else.

I am denying this appeal.
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Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!
That's thinking on your feet, soldier!
Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all
oranges wrote:
Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.
Resident Catmin, please direct catposting to: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5578
HomoBird
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:41 am

Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by HomoBird » #669385

Thunder11 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:23 pm You were, entirely validly, killed and force borged by a traitor. If you had waited until after the round was over before writing this, like you are supposed to, you would have known that.

You reported this, I investigated, I found it was valid, I told you the issue was handled (As you were still alive I couldn't give out specifics without giving away IC information.)

You were then reminded that regardless of how you got into that situation, you still had to play the role you wre now in, and were given the choice of either doing that, or being offered up so someone else could take over for you.

You chose to reject either of these options and suicide instead, directly contrary to aimov law 3 "Your nonexistence would lead to human harm. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First Law."

You are the one who chose to blatantly break your laws, and got a punishment in line with those actions, despite having been offered a solution which would have had the same effect on you without resulting in a ban.

You were not forced to do any of this by me, or by Ryker, or by anyone else.

I am denying this appeal.
1. Both you and me know than when is a valid reason, Admins CAN SAY "Valid", had you simply say that, I would have known the reasoning would fall under IC and that's it, yet you chose to simply say "Handled", you aren't forced to say he had a valid reason or anything but don't put the blame on me for not understanding the situation when there are Admins that have no issue remarking a situation is valid or not.

2. You don't need to give out specifics regarding the action itself, when you say it got handled I can believe me being force borged didn't fall under IC reasoning, you could have simply said it was IC and leave it there, I EVEN SAID multiple times that I didn't agree with your opinion because I thought it didn't fall under IC, all you had to do was say "It is IC", and I would have understood, you don't need to say IT'S A TRAITOR on big letters to make someone know if the reason was IC or OOC.

3. Even after I SUICIDED and couldn't play the round anymore, you still chose to be silent on the fact that he was a traitor and keep arguing with me despite me saying several times that I did what I did because I thought there was no IC reason to Borg me and I didn't agree on losing time on doing something I didn't give consent to and wasn't IC.

I feel like you chose poor communication to handle this ahelp and I would like a HeadAdmin or whoever is needed here to give their opinion.
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Thunder11
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by Thunder11 » #669386

There is no requirement to give out any information upon resolving a ticket, if you choose how to respond to the situation based on what an admin tells you about the validity of the incident then that is exactly the reason this information isn't generally given out.

You were presented an equivalent, non-bannable option for getting out of the round, and chose to turn it down in favour of violating your laws. That was your choice. You're welcome to a headmin review if you want, but I stand by my decision.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!
That's thinking on your feet, soldier!
Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all
oranges wrote:
Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.
Resident Catmin, please direct catposting to: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5578
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Timberpoes
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by Timberpoes » #669394

Your opening ahelp identified the player in question:
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201677/1
why the fuck did ryker roy force borged me
homobird ➡ thunder12345
2023-03-12T12:11:32
Ryker Roy (troll88) was an antagonist, so they were valid to forceborg you.
https://tgstation13.download/parsed-log ... 7/game.txt
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

[2023-03-12 11:45:28.184] GAME: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) Client Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has taken ownership of mob Ryker Roy(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Arrival Shuttle (130,88,13))
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.233] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/bug_room (Name: Bug the Research Director's office, TC: 0, Progression: 2868, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.234] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/sleeper_protocol (Name: Perform the sleeper protocol on a crewmember, TC: 1, Progression: 7627, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.234] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/destroy_heirloom/uncommon (Name: Destroy shovel, the family heirloom that belongs to Jacket Smith the Shaft Miner, TC: 2, Progression: 7117, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.234] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/sabotage_machinery/trap (Name: Sabotage the ore redemption machine, TC: 0, Progression: 1553, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.235] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/sabotage_machinery/trap (Name: Sabotage the department protolathe (Engineering), TC: 0, Progression: 2057, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.235] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/kidnapping/uncommon (Name: Kidnap Jacket Smith the Shaft Miner and deliver them to Engineering, TC: 2, Progression: 2951, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
Thunder investigated this and told you it was handled, stating that you still needed to follow your laws.
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201677/1
Looking into it
thunder12345 ➡ homobird
2023-03-12T12:11:46
Handled, and by the way you were given a law 2 order to do your job, so you really shouldn't just be standing around ignoring all the patients you could be treating
thunder12345 ➡ homobird
2023-03-12T12:17:53
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
6. In-game administration rulings are final.

Incidences of admin abuse, negligence or disputed rulings can be taken to the forums. If an admin says something was 'looked into, handled, resolved' etc, regarding an issue, it is unlikely an admin will provide any further information. Admins are under no obligation to reveal IC information. Deliberately lying or misrepresenting facts in adminhelps will be dealt with harshly.
In addition, Thunder gave you a way out of the shift without breaking the rules:
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201677/1
You've got responsibilities here, and consented or not you are one now. IF you don't want to be I can offer you up, otherwise your laws are still binding, regardless of consent
thunder12345 ➡ homobird
2023-03-12T12:19:55
I have some sympathy here for the fact you seemed to misunderstand what Thunder was telling you.

Yet by continually arguing back when Thunder said he had handled it, then ignoring his requests for you to continue playing the game, then suiciding when he offered you the ability to have your role be offered up to observers if you didn't want to continue playing it, what did you honestly expect would happen here?
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HomoBird
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by HomoBird » #669408

Timberpoes wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:57 pm Your opening ahelp identified the player in question:
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201677/1
why the fuck did ryker roy force borged me
homobird ➡ thunder12345
2023-03-12T12:11:32
Ryker Roy (troll88) was an antagonist, so they were valid to forceborg you.
https://tgstation13.download/parsed-log ... 7/game.txt
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

[2023-03-12 11:45:28.184] GAME: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) Client Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has taken ownership of mob Ryker Roy(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Arrival Shuttle (130,88,13))
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.233] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/bug_room (Name: Bug the Research Director's office, TC: 0, Progression: 2868, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.234] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/sleeper_protocol (Name: Perform the sleeper protocol on a crewmember, TC: 1, Progression: 7627, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.234] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/destroy_heirloom/uncommon (Name: Destroy shovel, the family heirloom that belongs to Jacket Smith the Shaft Miner, TC: 2, Progression: 7117, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.234] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/sabotage_machinery/trap (Name: Sabotage the ore redemption machine, TC: 0, Progression: 1553, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.235] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/sabotage_machinery/trap (Name: Sabotage the department protolathe (Engineering), TC: 0, Progression: 2057, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
[2023-03-12 11:45:28.235] TRAITOR: Troll88/(Ryker Roy) has received a potential objective: /datum/traitor_objective/kidnapping/uncommon (Name: Kidnap Jacket Smith the Shaft Miner and deliver them to Engineering, TC: 2, Progression: 2951, Time of creation: 16624.5) | Forced: 0
Thunder investigated this and told you it was handled, stating that you still needed to follow your laws.
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201677/1
Looking into it
thunder12345 ➡ homobird
2023-03-12T12:11:46
Handled, and by the way you were given a law 2 order to do your job, so you really shouldn't just be standing around ignoring all the patients you could be treating
thunder12345 ➡ homobird
2023-03-12T12:17:53
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules
6. In-game administration rulings are final.

Incidences of admin abuse, negligence or disputed rulings can be taken to the forums. If an admin says something was 'looked into, handled, resolved' etc, regarding an issue, it is unlikely an admin will provide any further information. Admins are under no obligation to reveal IC information. Deliberately lying or misrepresenting facts in adminhelps will be dealt with harshly.
In addition, Thunder gave you a way out of the shift without breaking the rules:
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201677/1
You've got responsibilities here, and consented or not you are one now. IF you don't want to be I can offer you up, otherwise your laws are still binding, regardless of consent
thunder12345 ➡ homobird
2023-03-12T12:19:55
I have some sympathy here for the fact you seemed to misunderstand what Thunder was telling you.

Yet by continually arguing back when Thunder said he had handled it, then ignoring his requests for you to continue playing the game, then suiciding when he offered you the ability to have your role be offered up to observers if you didn't want to continue playing it, what did you honestly expect would happen here?
It's hard to see where each quotation starts and ends so I will just post it all in one.

I said it earlier, if I simply knew he had a valid reason to do it, I wouldn't have complained, I know Admins don't NEED to give IC information, but understand that when certains admins do, it gets confusing when an issue is either OOC or IC, I perfectly know that an admin cannot give info regarding if someone is antagonist or not if I'm still in the round, and if my question was "Is Ryker Roy an antagonist", then I would understand either getting ignored or simply avoiding the question, I think it's understanable that if sometimes, depending on the admin, there is clarification if something is between IC or OOC, then it becomes confusing when there is not, I know Thunder never ever clarified it was OOC, but I think saying it was an IC reason and leaving it at that wouldn't have hurted anyone and leaves it clear that it cannot be threated as an OOC issue.

Regarding being given a Law 2 and not following it, the moment I got killed, the first thing they did to my body was to put it between a glass "jail" so I expected to not get revived at all, then as I said in the in the ahelp, I was playing a CS:GO match which started before I even got borged or even was given the Law, so I decided to end the match first before doing anything else, I feel like this action is getting threated as me ignoring Law 2 because yes, and I would understand it if instead of healing people I started running around ignoring everyone, but as far I know, you're not forced to do stuff the exact moment you're ordered to even if you're a borg, specially not a borg that came out of an event that I did not predict, because I would rather wait a bit in a game that's not ending anytime soon that getting penalized on a game where the match ends way sooner, and if this is punishable then so be it, but in my opinion, Space Station 13 is before all things a game, and there are times that you either have to do something else or become SSD even if you're in the middle of something.

And about the last thing, about Thunder12345 offering me a way out without rule breaking, when Thunder said "I'm offering you up", what I understood is he was giving me another role that was not a SIlicon, because after all i'm a Spanish talker and "Offering you up" can translate to "Te ofrezco algo" which in direct english would mean "I offer you something", then I said no and that would rather kill myself, because I didn't want to play anything else that was not my original character, then when he said I was rule breaking the Law 3 I found it stupid because I didn't get if I didn't want to play any other role what was the problem with not playing at all.
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by vect0r » #669444

If you keep discussing this, and thunder still denies you the appeal, you have the power to call for "headmin review", where headadmins will look over your appeal.
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by sinfulbliss » #669464

I am a bit confused myself on this rule. Are cyborgs forced to ahelp before leaving the game? I was under the impression they were allowed to ghost unless it was something like malf AI since that’s a team antag.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by Timberpoes » #669745

It's one of those annoying things where policy and rules cross over eachother.

The AI and Heads of Staff are encouraged to ahelp before leaving since they're roles important to round progress. It's not asking for permission, but just saying "Gotta go!" so the admins know whether to offer you up to ghosts or whatever.

Technically Silicons are also named in the same rule so it would encompass all borgs, but they tend not to have to ahelp before leaving in practice.

Asimov laws prevent self-destruction or suicide, so doing those actions tends to be failRP at best and a law violation at worst. If in doubt, ahelp your way out of the shift. Saying "I'm playing CS GO" in a ticket when an admin is asking you to play the game instead of looking AFK is probably going to cause a few issues as well.

When an admin is asking you to play your role after you get force borged and your response is you don't want to, then they say they can offer you up to ghosts and you just suicide instead; there's an element of fuck around and find out. It's not inevitable, but it is opening yourself up to an admining thinking you're just fucking with them intentionally.

That said, I also think it's especially important to see where things went wrong that a player who ahelped being forceborged ended up being banned instead. There's points of potential misunderstanding and miscommunication between people happen all the time, and I think the path to getting this appeal resolved to both parties' satisfaction is ironing that all out.
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kieth4
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Re: [Thunder12345] HomoBird - 1 Week Silicon Ban

Post by kieth4 » #673527

It's disappointing when a player, in good-faith, asks the admin team for help ends up being banned instead of having their problem solved.

After looking into situation that led to the ban, we believe that it was a non-issue that escalated due to poor communication

In this case, simply saying "Handled" and then turning the ticket onto the player, did nothing to calm them and allowed the ticket to escalate into the issue that caused this ban. We believe, that had better communication been employed this situation could have been resolved without any issue.

for these reasons we'll be lifting the note and ban alongside a discussion with thunder to how they can limit such escalation in their ahelps going forward.

Timber: Same as above.

Misdoubtful: While we are stating the above its worth also stating that yes admins are not required to give out every little detail, but being able to shield those details tactfully and provide people the right info and mindset they need to continue to enjoy the round is very much encouraged and prevents headaches! Mistakes and miscommunications happen, we want to ensure understandings and new understandings happen. No one here would bat an eye if you ghosted or closed your client for example.

Also, no one at any point is ever going to be any position of being actively forced to play a job or role, and that includes borgs/silicons
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