[NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

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leia
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:53 pm

[NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672539

BYOND account: alonewithus
Character name: Leia Pampa
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Note
Ban reason: Put healing bees in medical. After being asked to remove them, refused and escalated against the members of medical who tried to remove the bees. Was eventually killed and revived, and proceeded to kill the doctor responsible despite the conflict having ended.
Time ban was placed: 2023-03-23 20:49:48
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 202371
Your side of the story: I made healing bees in medical lobby. I'm not sure if I was told to remove the apiary, but I didn't notice it as it might've been when I was SSD for a bit. I shoved the med doctor hitting it with a circular saw and put it in my backpack so they couldn't retaliate with it. They chase me away from medbay with another doctor or CMO. I end up hitting them with a command baton I was hit with first, then run away. When they find me they flash me, take the baton, and keep hitting me with it (on combat) they keep doing so until I am *past* being crit (they can clearly see this with their medhuds, immediately when someone goes crit). I just ghost because they are clearly going to kill me anyways. I believe they did in fact hit me after I succumbed (now dead), which you can only succumb during crit, so that would show they were hitting me past already being crit. I tried to get sec to punish them for it, sec just let them go with no punishment at all, so I shot and killed them and left them to be revived.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I was told by the noting admin a quote, ""Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions."" Saying that this is how I broke the rules. However, this does show that I followed the rules, as they kept hitting me past being crit? Also keep in mind it was a baton they were doing this with, so they also had me stamcrit (and therefore essentially incapacitated) but yet kept hitting me into crit. And then past crit. I did make the mistake of succumbing though (I was not thinking at the time about how that could cause ambiguity about if they *actually* meant to kill me or not).
Anything else we should know: The person whom I attacked, who crit(killed) me, ended up being an admin. After killing them when they were revived they yelled about it over comms, and after some arguing referenced they were an admin (in an IC way of stating). Then in EORG said

"Desk of Command Rep Vex Petunia-Licht Update

Your paycheck is mine.


You know who you are."

I think this is not only unbecoming, but blurs the lines between "being mad/a jerk in IC" and "being mad/a jerk OOC". And leads me to believe they beat me past crit not because of any valid rules reason, but because they were mad OOC. Additionally, (referencing being an admin IC and making that announcement in OOC) makes it seem like they are immune by being staff, and that I was fucked for being a player who fought an admin. ("Your paycheck is mine")
leia
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:53 pm

Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672557

DevinXoptoh wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:45 pm As someone who watched this happen?
you quite literally gunned them down on the tram, after they had already been lethalled and put into brig.
you, a botanist, and non antag, had posession of lethals and then gunned someone down for... already serving an IC consequence.
They had not been lethalled nor brigged, as I was watching them the whole time. Maybe you should consider knowing what happened before claiming what happened.
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Drag
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by Drag » #672558

Admins can have on-station characters, my central announcement was not directly in reference to anyone in particular. (I am the admin in question about that central command report.)

Imaginos also did an in-character central announcement for EORG. Literally, neither of these announcements has any bearing on this note. If it's bothering you that much please make an admin complaint and we can address it there.

I'm too lazy to pull logs, but I will edit this post when I find the energy to do so. Here's the lowdown of what happened:

The CMO and I asked you twice to remove your bees, we didn't want them and we had concerns about the bees triggering someone's allergies. We have a RIGHT to remove your projects, by the way, when it encroaches upon our space. I heard nothing from you so I decided to break the beehive and remove it from medicals lobby. You come out of nowhere and shoved me, stealing my saw. The CMO sees this and comes to help me, in response, you shove THEM and steal not only their baton but their flash as well. Yes, you were murdered as a result. Act like an antag and get treated like one.

There was some talk over coms about the chaplain flashing someone, my goal wasn't to kill you but rather to beat you over the head to potentially remove your rev status. You death gasped before I could apply medicine to you. Yeah, you were pretty deep into crit, and that's my bad, but that's what my intent was. You attacked me and a head of staff, after a report over common about the chaplain flashing people.

After that, you were healed and revived in medical. After I drag you out you attack me with a welder. So I hit you back with my saw (maybe twice I don't remember right now) and tell you not to come back to medical. As far as I was concerned that situation was over.

There was an unrelated situation in medical where the detective open fired on medical, and then I died again along with some other medical personnel. At this point, you start stalking me. You followed me as I was detained in medical and alllll the way to the brig, even entering the brig without permission. I clear up the situation with one officer that actually had two braincells to rub together and meet up with the CE, who was showing off their sm setup. On the tram (still stalking me at this point) you open fire with a laser gun with no escalation.

I was revived and did not interact any further with you other than maybe over coms.

Edit: Chip did drag me around, because he wanted revenge, but I broke off from them since I didnt want any more issues
leia
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:53 pm

Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672559

DevinXoptoh wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:47 pm Oh to also mention, you quite literally screamed "JUSTICE" after killing vex on the tram, A botanist isnt there to serve justice. Security is
I find it quite interesting that you say this, because you are the player of Chip, who was dragging Vex around behind you as your RCD broke into botany and proceeded to try to chase me around. I'm not sure what leg you have to stand on here since you literally B&E trying to, I assume, arrest me as CE.
leia
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672562

Drag wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:10 pm There was some talk over coms about the chaplain flashing someone, my goal wasn't to kill you but rather to beat you over the head to potentially remove your rev status. You death gasped before I could apply medicine to you. Yeah, you were pretty deep into crit, and that's my bad, but that's what my intent was.

open fire with a laser gun with no escalation.
In conjunction with ""Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions.""
You state here that you did indeed hit me past being crit. Which then lets me avenge damage later, right? Now even if that isn't exactly the case, where is it that I'm not following the rules?
I broke the rules because I didn't know you were trying to rev deconvert me when you were beating me past crit? I assumed you were killing me. There wasn't even revs, if I remember correctly, so I had no reason to know that that's what was happening.

I don't care for the whole situation, I'm not asking that you get demoted or something, I just don't want to be noted for this.
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Drag
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by Drag » #672564

Which then lets me avenge damage later, right?
No. I took you to medbay and healed you(someone else did but thats not the point), for all intents and purposes you were a revolutionary in my mind from how antagonistic your behavior was to me and the CMO. Just because I hit you a few more times than intended doesn't give you the right to stalk someone else and murder them later when they don't prevent your revival and take you to medbay. Once someone is crit or dies that conflict is over period.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by Timberpoes » #672565

Let's keep this appeal on track else I'm going to pop a blood vessel.

For clarity's sake, this appeal relates to the events of round 202366 and not round 202371 from the appeal opening post.

Our current guidelines on appealing notes can be found in the Ban Appeal forum rules thread:
viewtopic.php?p=347563#p347563
Note appeals:
Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if they match one of the following two cases:
  1. The note is factually or materially incorrect.
    1. There must be a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you. If you were being a shit but the note didn't correctly detail exactly how you were being a shit, an appeal nitpicking this detail is unlikely to be granted.
    2. Statements that are clearly pure opinion on the admins part can not be incorrect (because that is what the admin actually believes), but may be appealed under case 2 below.
    3. Appealed bans are only factually incorrect if the conditions around ban itself was incorrect. Getting unbanned because you apologized or similar reasons is not grounds to have the auto-generated note about the ban removed. Likewise: getting unbanned because you broke the rules but the admin or a headmin later determined that a ban was "too much" is not grounds to remove the ban's note.
    4. Notes appealed under this rule may be amended rather than removed.
    5. Notes appealed under this rule will generally be more successful if appealing players offers suggested rewording that they feel properly accounts for nuances without minimizing what the note is trying to highlight. Understand that we have to balance keeping notes short and succinct with accurately reflecting the situation.
  2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
    1. Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
      1. Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter
Accordingly, I'd like you to focus your discussion points primarily on the above guidelines.
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leia
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672569

Drag wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:23 pm
Which then lets me avenge damage later, right?
No. I took you to medbay and healed you(someone else did but thats not the point), for all intents and purposes you were a revolutionary in my mind from how antagonistic your behavior was to me and the CMO. Just because I hit you a few more times than intended doesn't give you the right to stalk someone else and murder them later when they don't prevent your revival and take you to medbay. Once someone is crit or dies that conflict is over period.
I read the rules, and I followed what I was told before regarding someone else to me (if you are killed unfairly you can kill them in revenge) and the (insert the rules thing I quoted a few times already here).
Except it turns out for(edited from "first") the first part that it was fair because you weren't killing me I just assumed you were and ghosted.
And for second part, I guess if you have that person revived that does end the conflict.
The first part you can't really blame me for not knowing, especially when there wasn't actually revs, and the second part I didn't know. It seems like there's a lot of addendum to the rules and it seems hard to keep track of everything.
If it means anything, I just left and didn't attempt to fight Chip for shoving me and shooting at me, let Drag be revived and made no attempt to stop it. I was not intending to grief, and I think those actions show that.
Last edited by leia on Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
leia
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672570

Oh shit did I quote the wrong round number? I might have messed up as manuel went down as I was doing this. Uhhh...

EDIT: Manuel has too many players currently for me to join and check. Welp.
Last edited by leia on Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by Timberpoes » #672573

Again, I'm going to ask you to stick to the guidelines for appealing notes. Nobody is going to read walls of players and admins doing a he-said she-said he-did she-did over a basic note. Other involved parties contributing their takes and interpretations to this where such takes don't relate to the factual accuracy or general fairness and harshness of the note are pretty much irrelevant.

Unless you can focus on where the note is factually/materially inaccurate or paints things in an unfair and unjustifiably harsh manner then the note cannot be appealed.

Additionally, I've seen your comments about admins sending command reports to reference or mald about the shift after the round ends. The relevant log entries for that alongside some other stuff are with the headmin team and we will be reviewing this in due course.
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leia
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672574

Timberpoes wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:56 pm Again, I'm going to ask you to stick to the guidelines for appealing notes. Nobody is going to read walls of players and admins doing a he-said she-said he-did she-did over a basic note. Other involved parties contributing their takes and interpretations to this where such takes don't relate to the factual accuracy or general fairness and harshness of the note are pretty much irrelevant.

Unless you can focus on where the note is factually/materially inaccurate or paints things in an unfair and unjustifiably harsh manner then the note cannot be appealed.

Additionally, I've seen your comments about admins sending command reports to reference or mald about the shift after the round ends. The relevant log entries for that alongside some other stuff are with the headmin team and we will be reviewing this in due course.
Okay, here's my summary for it in regards to the note appeal guidelines:
I am appealing under 1a and/or 2.
1a: I feel that an admin who knew all the facts vs one who read the note would see differently. I believed I was murdered unfairly, and it definitely matters, as I was told just a couple rounds ago "You can kill someone in revenge for being murdered", to which an admin reading the note of course wouldn't know.
2: Pretty much the same as 1a. Specifically, I think that given the situation of them almost killing me under misguided intentions (thinking there was revs, I was a rev, and beating me past crit to deconvert me) makes quite a bit of difference, yet is not mentioned at all. To elaborate further, this note would be exactly the same if I was never beaten past crit (and thinking I was being murdered, so I just ghosted, and thought they were intending to kill me) which makes QUITE a big deal of difference, I definitely think so.

EDIT: Regarding the "You can kill someone in revenge for being murdered", it only applies under being murdered unfairly, but I thought I had been. So I thought I was therefore allowed to, after having just been made aware of this, today. Which was a mistake, of course.
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sinfulbliss
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by sinfulbliss » #672577

Attack logs of initial conflict (filtered for Vex and Leia):
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

07:45:51	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:52	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:53	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:54	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:55	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:56	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:57	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:58	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:45:59	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked [apiary] with the circular saw	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:46:00	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) 	(125, 111, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:46:01	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) kicks Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 100) 	(125, 111, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:46:01	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) 	(125, 111, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:46:11	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved TransPride101/(Geico Armstrong) (NEWHP: 100) 	(125, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:46:12	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 100) 	(125, 112, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:46:13	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 100) 	(127, 116, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:16	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 100) 	(126, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:21	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) stun attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100) 	(119, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:22	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Impossibruh/(Mamos Monumentas) (NEWHP: 97) 	(119, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:24	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 100) 	(118, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:37	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) stun attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 98.4) 	(115, 115, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:46:41	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) 	(114, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:42	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shaken Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 100) 	(114, 114, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:43	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) kicks Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 100) 	(115, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:43	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 100) 	(115, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:46	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) stun attacked Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100) 	(112, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:47	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) grabbed Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) 	(112, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:46:52	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) stun attacked Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100) 	(106, 114, 3)	Station Asteroid
07:46:56	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) grabbed Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) 	(105, 114, 3)	Station Asteroid
07:46:59	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) grabbed Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) 	(99, 114, 3)	Station Asteroid
07:47:00	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) thrown Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) grab from tile in Station Asteroid (98,114,3) towards tile at Station Asteroid (99,118,3) (NEWHP: 100) 	(98, 114, 3)	Station Asteroid
07:47:48	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) flashed(targeted) Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) 	(66, 122, 3)	Port Tram Dock
07:47:51	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) flashed(targeted) Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the flash (NEWHP: 92.2) 	(65, 120, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:47:52	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shaken Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 91.8) 	(65, 120, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:47:55	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) flashed(targeted) Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the flash (NEWHP: 93.7) 	(65, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:47:58	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) stun attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 96.1) 	(66, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:47:59	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 88.6) 	(66, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:00	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 79.9) 	(66, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:02	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 71.4) 	(66, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:03	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) stun attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 71.4) 	(66, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:09	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) stun attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 75.1) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:10	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65.1) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:11	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 55.1) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:11	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 46.3) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:12	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 36.3) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:13	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) stun attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 37.8) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:14	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 27.7) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:15	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19.2) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:16	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 9.2) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:17	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 0.6) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:18	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -9.4) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:19	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -19.4) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:20	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -28.2) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:21	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -38.2) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:22	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -46.7) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:23	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -56.7) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:24	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -65.2) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:25	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -75.2) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:26	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -84.4) 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:29	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has thrown the telescopic baton 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:48:31	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has thrown the burnt-out flash 	(67, 119, 2)	Port Tram Underpass
07:49:43	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) is stripping *no key*/(Leia Pampa) of the leather satchel.	(127, 101, 3)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:49:47	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has stripped *no key*/(Leia Pampa) of the leather satchel.	(127, 101, 3)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:50:29	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has thrown the honey frame 	(131, 114, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:50:29	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has thrown the wooden plank 	(131, 114, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:50:33	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) grabbed *no key*/(Commander Beep O'sky) passive grab (NEWHP: 25) 	(124, 110, 3)	Medbay Lobby
07:51:30	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attempted to handcuff *no key*/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: -58.2) 	(127, 101, 3)	Medbay Treatment Center
The rev callout mentioned (say logs matching "revs" and "revolution")
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

07:46:52	SAY	JupiterJaeden/(Abacus Dread) "fuck possible revs!"	(79, 136, 3)	Command Hallway
07:47:30	SAY	JupiterJaeden/(Abacus Dread) "attention command, we have possible revolutionaries."	(74, 164, 3)	Armory
07:51:01	SAY	PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "I did, Sec said it wasn't a priority because apparently, we have revs."	(125, 101, 3)	Medbay Treatment Center
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/202 ... e=game.txt and https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/202 ... attack.txt

It sounds like you are contesting the "despite the conflict having ended" in the note, since you believe the conflict didn't end after the scuffle in medbay. This might involve explaining why you thought avenging the damage was justified, and that the beating after incapacitation extended the conflict.
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #672582

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:10 pm Attack logs of initial conflict (filtered for Vex and Leia):

snipped

I would like to point out that they literally were about 1 hit from killing me, factoring in that i was losing hp from being in crit (or rather hardcrit) so my assumption they were killing me, and succumbing, is very valid.

EDIT: also if what's posted here is true, then revs were called out as "possible" AFTER I shoved them, and I never attacked either except with nonlethals, mostly shoves. So, do with that information what you will.
Last edited by leia on Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by iwishforducks » #672842

There was a second scuffle between Leia and Vex that's not mentioned here.

Code: Select all

07:54:22	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) grabbed Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)	(127, 102, 3)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:54:29	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) is stripping Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) of the handcuffs.	(123, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:54:32	SAY	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "Stupid cunt."	(123, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:54:33	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) has stripped Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) of the handcuffs.	(123, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:54:36	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) grabbed Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100)	(122, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:54:37	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) broke grab Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 100)	(122, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:54:39	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) attacked Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 85)	(123, 115, 3)	Central Tram Dock
07:54:49	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) suffered: Rough Abrasion to head | Damage: 15 (rolled 9/44.3127) | WB: 15 | BWB: 10	(116, 121, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:54:49	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80.6)	(116, 120, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:54:53	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) suffered: Open Laceration to head | Damage: 15 (rolled 43/44.3127) | WB: 15 | BWB: 10	(108, 122, 2)	Station Asteroid
07:54:53	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 67.7)	(109, 122, 2)	Station Asteroid
07:54:58	SAY	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "FUCK OUTTA HERE!!"	(107, 120, 2)	Station Asteroid
07:54:59	EMOTE	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) points at the red scrubbers pipe	(110, 120, 2)	Station Asteroid
07:55:01	SAY	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) "CMO"	(116, 121, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:06	SAY	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) "MURDERER"	(116, 121, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:11	SAY	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "The botanist attacked me with a welder"	(115, 123, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:13	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 85)	(116, 123, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:14	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) attacked Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 76.6)	(114, 123, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:14	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 85)	(115, 123, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:15	ATTACK	Fren256/(Sails-The-Stars) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 76.6)	(115, 124, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:17	ATTACK	Fren256/(Sails-The-Stars) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 85)	(115, 124, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:19	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 78.8)	(117, 120, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:20	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) kicks Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 81)	(117, 120, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:20	ATTACK	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) shoved Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) (NEWHP: 81)	(117, 120, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:24	EMOTE	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) points at the floor	(118, 118, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:27	SAY	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "Stay out of medical"	(118, 118, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:28	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 85)	(119, 118, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:29	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) into Sails-The-Stars (NEWHP: 85)	(117, 118, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:30	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) kicks Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 85)	(117, 118, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:30	ATTACK	Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) shoved Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 85)	(117, 118, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:35	ATTACK	Chispaboby/(Susan Catherine Mauser) shaken Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) (NEWHP: 85)	(119, 119, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
07:55:39	SAY	Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "Fucking bitch."	(118, 120, 2)	Central Tram Underpass
Some key notes about this information that's not blatantly obvious: Vex had dragged Leia out to the upper tram just outside of medical before uncuffing them. The logs after Leia had weldered Vex all happen below the tram. I'm unsure how both parties winded up below the tram. I don't think falling down holes is logged, and obviously going down ladders isn't logged.

Logs: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/202 ... lonewithus
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by Fren256 » #672910

iwishforducks wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:28 pm Some key notes about this information that's not blatantly obvious: Vex had dragged Leia out to the upper tram just outside of medical before uncuffing them. The logs after Leia had weldered Vex all happen below the tram. I'm unsure how both parties winded up below the tram. I don't think falling down holes is logged, and obviously going down ladders isn't logged.
I was there when it happened. Both Vex and Leia were standing next to the edge of the tram station. If I remember correctly Leia walked up north and fell off first, with Vex following them right after.
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by NoxVS » #673045

It's weird that there are so many posts, but at least I don't have to format and post the logs myself because everyone else handled it for me.

To begin with, I would like to apologize for not being as accurate as I would have liked when first quoting the rules to you. The more relevant ruling being "If a conflict leads to violence and either participant is incapacitated, the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist. Once treated the conflict is over; any new conflict with either individual must escalate once again. If you get into a conflict again with that individual, they may be removed permanently from the round."

The conflict starts with you putting the healing bees in medical. Medical decides they don't want them and asks you to remove them.

Code: Select all

[2023-03-23 19:43:28.925] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "+Botany.+" (Medbay Treatment Center (126,99,3))
[2023-03-23 19:43:37.751] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "+Remove the bees from medical.+" (Medbay Treatment Center (126,99,3))
[2023-03-23 19:43:38.356] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "Quit it with the fucking bees botany." (Medbay Treatment Center (127,98,3))
[2023-03-23 19:43:52.398] SAY: Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) "the bees heal you stupid" (Medbay Lobby (122,110,3))
[2023-03-23 19:44:00.765] SAY: Alonewithus/(Leia Pampa) "they heal you" (Medbay Lobby (122,110,3))
You don't remove them so Vex begins to destroy the bees on their own. You shove, take their saw, and get in a fight - Eventually taking a flash and telescopic baton as well.

Code: Select all

[2023-03-23 19:45:37.832] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "DAMNIT!!" (Medbay Treatment Center (128,99,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:40.467] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "'BOTANY!!" (Medbay Treatment Center (128,99,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:41.979] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "I hate these bees so much." (Medbay Treatment Center (127,99,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:43.295] EMOTE: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) breathes in. (Medbay Treatment Center (128,99,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:47.882] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "BOTANY!!" (Medbay Central (127,106,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:48.511] EMOTE: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) points at the apiary (Medbay Central (128,106,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:48.718] EMOTE: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) points at the apiary (Medbay Central (128,106,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:49.050] EMOTE: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) points at the apiary (Medbay Central (128,106,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:49.160] EMOTE: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) points at the apiary (Medbay Central (128,106,3))
[2023-03-23 19:45:50.791] EMOTE: Kuzona/(Horsehead Neb) points at Jadyn Roby (Medbay Central (127,105,3))
[2023-03-23 19:46:02.642] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "I DONT GIVE A FUCK" (Medbay Lobby (125,110,3))
[2023-03-23 19:46:19.901] EMOTE: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) points at Leia Pampa (Central Tram Dock (119,115,3))
[2023-03-23 19:46:35.319] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Abacus Dread) "vex just screamed it on common radio-" (Command Hallway (79,134,3))
[2023-03-23 19:46:52.008] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "GET YOUR STUPID BEES" (Station Asteroid (107,114,3))
[2023-03-23 19:46:56.025] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "OUT OF MY DEPARTMENT" (Station Asteroid (106,114,3))
[2023-03-23 19:47:06.385] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "Kill the fucking botanist." (Station Asteroid (99,118,2))
[2023-03-23 19:47:08.243] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "Arrest Leia" (Station Asteroid (101,117,2))
[2023-03-23 19:47:11.881] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "They stole my shit." (Station Asteroid (101,117,2))
[2023-03-23 19:47:14.672] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "NOW" (Station Asteroid (101,116,2))
[2023-03-23 19:47:18.393] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "DID YOU HEAR HOS?" (Station Asteroid (101,116,2))
[2023-03-23 19:47:22.777] SAY: PositiveEntropy/(Jadyn Roby) "ARREST FUCKING LEIA!!" (Station Asteroid (101,116,2))
[2023-03-23 19:47:31.552] SAY: Thedragmeme/(Vex Petunia-Licht) "They stole the CMOS baton" (Central Tram Dock (115,115,3))
At this point you are tracked down and beaten to death. Which, honestly, seems fine even without the possibility of you being a rev. Security had seemingly said that the issue wasn't a priority, and you had robbed the people involved in the fight. You get taken to medical promptly, revived, and let go with - I assume - all of your gear. At this point you are alive and well, medical has no reason to keep fighting with you, and everything is over. You get a passing welder hit off as you leave, Vex gets a saw hit in retaliation, and you both go your separate ways. You later find Vex, gun them down, and make no effort to treat them despite the fact that you yourself had been treated after your death.

Overall, it seems like you were treated pretty fairly. If they were still pursuing you then I get killing them, but you went out of your way to kill them when they were leaving you alone. Even if you thought it was unfair, you walked away from it without really being hindered further. I can't really think of any additional details to add to the note that are relevant and accurate beyond what is already here.
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:53 pm

Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #673089

NoxVS wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:44 am You later find Vex, gun them down, and make no effort to treat them despite the fact that you yourself had been treated after your death.

Overall, it seems like you were treated pretty fairly. If they were still pursuing you then I get killing them, but you went out of your way to kill them when they were leaving you alone. Even if you thought it was unfair, you walked away from it without really being hindered further. I can't really think of any additional details to add to the note that are relevant and accurate beyond what is already here.
I had killed them right outside medbay lobby, in front of about 3 people. Immediately after doing so Chip (the guy who first replied to this thread) proceeded to pick up the laser gun and shoot at me. I think this is different in pretty much every way possible. Location: bottom tram west of station VS medbay lobby. Occupations: I was a botanist and they were a med doctor with another doctor. Conflict: Nothing and no one was preventing them from handling my body, I was currently being shot at.

I had only killed them immediately following security letting them free without punishing them after I said many times about them having killed me. This is the same rationale that was given for why they attacked me. (You said they called security and security didn't respond)

They had completely destroyed the apiary, which also killed the only queen bee inside, when they very easily could've just used the medical wrench and moved it. Not to mention it also had the only regenerative jelly that I owned inside, meaning I couldn't exactly "just order another from cargo".

EDIT: The apiary with the only queen bee and only regenerative jelly is way, wayyy more expensive/meaningful/hard-to-get than one circular saw. Also, because this probably matters, the apiary (at least as I was able to see) was destroyed later, after I had been killed. It was not broken nor being attacked while the scuffle happened between us that ended up in me dying.
Last edited by leia on Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by NoxVS » #673645

leia wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:53 pm They had completely destroyed the apiary, which also killed the only queen bee inside, when they very easily could've just used the medical wrench and moved it. Not to mention it also had the only regenerative jelly that I owned inside, meaning I couldn't exactly "just order another from cargo".

EDIT: The apiary with the only queen bee and only regenerative jelly is way, wayyy more expensive/meaningful/hard-to-get than one circular saw. Also, because this probably matters, the apiary (at least as I was able to see) was destroyed later, after I had been killed. It was not broken nor being attacked while the scuffle happened between us that ended up in me dying.
That's just a consequence of not removing it when asked. If the doctors don't want it in medical and you don't remove it when asked they are well within their rights to get rid of it on their own.

At the end of the day, a conflict ends when it leads to violence and one party is incapacitated and healed. Your state wasn't used to take further action against you, you were healed back to health, and you walked away with everything of yours that wasn't related to the fight itself. If the conflict hadn't ended, what reason does medical have to actually revive you if you can just start the fight back up again? Allowing you to gun down Vex is just punishing them for not round removing you, and it results in a situation where Vex is then free to kill you which means you can kill them in revenge which allows Vex to kill you and so forth and so on.

From what I can see the note is factual, isn't unnecessarily harsh, and there are no relevant details I can see that I think should be added. As such this is denied, and headmin review is available if you still disagree.
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:53 pm

Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by leia » #675326

To be completely honest, I wasn't going to make this appeal until the part happened that I said in the "Anything else we should know:" part. That was really what rubbed me the wrong way the most. I accept the note, I won't appeal to head admins.
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Re: [NoxVS] Alonewithus - note appeal

Post by NoxVS » #675586

leia wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:43 am To be completely honest, I wasn't going to make this appeal until the part happened that I said in the "Anything else we should know:" part. That was really what rubbed me the wrong way the most. I accept the note, I won't appeal to head admins.
I'll consider this resolved then. If you're fine with the note but want the "Anything else we should know" part looked into, that would be the realm of either an admin complaint or admin feedback.
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
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