[RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

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sinfulbliss
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[RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by sinfulbliss » #673090

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Ban type: Players-club forum
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: Image
Time ban was placed: Jan 8 2023

Your side of the story: I said something that qualified as drama-stirring (Rave deleted it so I can't show), was warned both for that post and then minutes later for the post shown above, then immediately banned since this put me at 3 forum warnings (the first was a warning from Rave in Dec 2021 for what he deemed an off-topic policythread post).

Why you think you should be unbanned: I've rewritten this a few times. The first time I meticulously went through all the posts and warnings but that's pretty exhausting for everyone especially since this is just a subforum ban; I can still do that if needed. But for now I'll keep it short: a warning for the deleted post is somewhat understandable, it was a bit incendiary. An instant ban 10 min later for the attached post isn't understandable. I expressed a perspective and Rave found it so reprehensible as to ban me for it. I also contest his retroactive justification that the ban was based on "post history." Maybe I had some bad takes a couple years ago, as my posts were very stream-of-consciousness, but they were never rulebreaking. I was never warned for them and they were only brought up much later as a post hoc justification to an unfair ban. I'm re-appealing because I don't think the appeal last term was handled fairly - it felt more like a disparaging defamation piece against me than an unbiased review of the actual ban.

Anything else we should know: It goes without saying but I have no interest in rekindling this old drama. The dead horse has not only been beaten but also battered into a fine bone powder, absorbed into the soil, grew a tree, which fruited a horse that was then beaten to death a second time. Also worth mentioning that although the banning admin was Rave, it was implied last term this new appeal would go to headmins so this is effectively a request for headmin review.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by RaveRadbury » #673099

The ban was for your post history, the posts that got you banned were just the final straw. The Player's Club has a lower threshold for banning than in-game, forums, or discord.

In your last appeal I pointed out that you seem to enjoy making peanuts worse and that you think the Player's Club is a place meant for conflict. Do you still believe that "The peanut being spoiled by degenerate drama is actually the peanut becoming beautiful and tasty"?

Your deleted posts that triggered the ban can be found at the bottom of this post in your last appeal.

The board's been doing just fine without you, despite your prediction otherwise in the last appeal. I do not think that you being back in there will benefit the community.

As the creator of the Player's Club I do not think you should be let back in based on your opening post here. If you have to appeal this again I'd recommend committing to engaging the community more positively and acknowledging the issue with your past posts rather than writing them off as stream of consciousness and defamation.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by sinfulbliss » #673100

RaveRadbury wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:06 pm -snip-
This appeal is not directed towards you. Your term specifically admitted to being biased against me in the appeal thread itself. How it was handled was not at all how headmins should handle a ban appeal, everyone I've talked to including admins have agreed with that much, and I have absolutely no interest in engaging in this conversation with you whatsoever.

I would be happy discussing and answering any questions with the headmins, but I see no purpose in rehashing this with you after you've already made your decision months ago.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by RaveRadbury » #673103

sinfulbliss wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:12 pm Your term even specifically admitted to being biased against me in the appeal thread itself.
San's post was made without being run by either of us and was entirely of his own opinion and volition. It was in no way representative of our term making a concerted post.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by Timberpoes » #673107

The die roll between the ban being overturned because of bias in your last appeal, versus it being investigated on its own objective basis with unbiased investigation from all three headmins this term, versus the whole appeal being summarily dismissed because it has been less than a year when you refuse to engage with the banning admin this time...

Perhaps a die you may want to cook in the oven a little first before you roll it. Ya know, to tilt the odds a bit more in your favour by limiting the chances it'll fall on the worst of those three outcomes. Just saying.

Because rightfully this appeal could be summarily closed, but I'd like to keep it open because you didn't get a fair review last time. That doesn't give you a free pass to bypass the ordinary processes of talking with the banning admin and hashing things out with the benefit of a few extra months of forum posting and hindsight.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by sinfulbliss » #673118

Timberpoes wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:35 pm That doesn't give you a free pass to bypass the ordinary processes of talking with the banning admin and hashing things out with the benefit of a few extra months of forum posting and hindsight.
As you wish.
RaveRadbury wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:06 pm The ban was for your post history, the posts that got you banned were just the final straw. The Player's Club has a lower threshold for banning than in-game, forums, or discord.
A final straw comes after several previous straws. Or at least one or two straws, you'd agree. The straws, all two of them, came at once in a 10-minute span, before I was instantly banned. I did not receive a single warning or comment from you about any of the "post history" you now cite as the main reason for my ban. I would like to know why.
RaveRadbury wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:06 pmIn your last appeal I pointed out that you seem to enjoy making peanuts worse and that you think the Player's Club is a place meant for conflict. Do you still believe that "The peanut being spoiled by degenerate drama is actually the peanut becoming beautiful and tasty"?
I believe the players' club is a place meant for discussion, not conflict, and no, that doesn't make it worse. Discussion often leads to argument and conflict. I also view the players' club like a club. A place players can shoot the shit and chat about stuff. I do not think I need to run all my jokes through RaveGPT's content policy before sending them, but if I run afoul of it I expect to at least be told so.
RaveRadbury wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:06 pmThe board's been doing just fine without you, despite your prediction otherwise in the last appeal. I do not think that you being back in there will benefit the community.
This just reads as nasty to me, and it's the same tone as how you replied to my first appeal. It's the reason I don't want to engage with you. You are very clearly more interested in a "gotcha" or teardown than you are in considering the merits of the ban. I never said the Players' club would suffer without me, and I haven't suffered without it. I'm not appealing to reunite separated longlost lovers, I'm appealing because your ban was unfair.
RaveRadbury wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:06 pmIf you have to appeal this again I'd recommend committing to engaging the community more positively and acknowledging the issue with your past posts rather than writing them off as stream of consciousness and defamation.
I have lots of positive engagements with the community and I enjoy talking to other players regularly. The most negative engagement I've had with this community has probably been in these appeal threads with you. I am not going to "acknowledge issues" in recreational posts that you never bothered warning me for until now.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by RaveRadbury » #673529

Alright, I've thought about this more and sought perspectives and advice. I'm interested in lifting this ban.

In your appeal you have made clear that you're not interested in rehashing the drama. That's in really good faith of you and I appreciate it. You've also said that you didn't receive enough warning, which implies that if you had received warning that things could have gone differently. If that's the case it's on me for not providing warnings on the previous borderline content.

I just want some confidence that you're not going to make any more posts like the ones laid out in the previous appeal which aren't healthy for the player's club. If you continue like that I will escalate properly, ignoring this previous escalation that you find to be unfair.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by sinfulbliss » #673540

RaveRadbury wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:31 pm I just want some confidence that you're not going to make any more posts like the ones laid out in the previous appeal which aren't healthy for the player's club. If you continue like that I will escalate properly, ignoring this previous escalation that you find to be unfair.
I appreciate you extending an olive branch, but if the post I was banned for is any example, we have much, much different ideas about what sort of posts are acceptable content for the Players' Club. Saying "okay, I won't make anymore posts that you consider unhealthy like in the last appeal" is tantamount to essentially giving you free reign to ban or warn me for any post I make that you dislike.

The only post I made that was likely drama-stirring is the deleted one I got a warning for. Even that one, if you read it, actually isn't even attacking Typhnox, it's making fun of the ban reason, but regardless it probably qualifies as drama-stirring. Those sorts of posts, as I said in the OP, I won't make. But the ones you attached to the previous appeal? They are quite literally discussion points, half are tongue in cheek, I don't see how they violate Players' Club rules at all.

I think your standards for acceptable posts are above and beyond what any other forum moderator or headmin has, since only you have warned me for any posts I've ever made in the Players' Club. Additionally I do not think your standards reflect the rules: asking why drama-stirring is against the rules isn't grounds for a ban, regardless of whether it's been reduced to the tiniest of tiny straws that broke the camel's back, it is not something that should have received any sort of action whatsoever, and if that's the standard I have to agree with, I would rather wait for headmins to comment.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by Timberpoes » #673588

If your entire argument is that everything in the original ban is baseless and you're a blameless saint just waiting for the headmins to overturn it all, then you need to take a course in room reading because you're highly unlikely to get that exact outcome. You can gun for it, sure - but don't mistake any mishandling of past appeals for a complete lack of culpability on your part, because the totality of your posting is what triggered this entire fiasco in the first place.

If you're unbanned it's probably gonna be on some utterly asinine and pointless technicalities that makes nobody happy, like "technically you did wrong but you should have had a fairer appeal last time" or "technically a bunch of past posts shouldn't have been piled up in one go and used to ban you all at once without at least fair prior warning" or something like that.

Which means if you are unbanned it's very likely it'll be that you're set back to the position you'd have been in prior to that ban being placed, except now appropriately warned against your previous Player's Club posting habits.

Rave is giving you not just a shortcut to being unbanned without the headmins having to wade in and complicate this even more. Rave is also giving you a piece of advice that the status quo you were maintaining is untenable in the long-term. I'm finding myself generally in agreement with that latter point, although not to the same level as Rave has expressed in this and the previous appeal.

Not addressing that little elephant in the room is going to lead us back here in 2 months' time if any appeal is accepted, so I suggest you take my words on board.

Or don't. It's your appeal. Have fun with it.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by RaveRadbury » #673603

I'll be lifting this ban. Headmins do not need to rule on it.

If you want to pass up on a moment to agree or find common ground and have a handshake that's fine. I'm not going to hinge this entire ban on whether or not you agree with my perspective on how the community should be and what's bad for it.

You've ceded that at least one of your warnings was for incendiary content so you acknowledge there was an issue with it. I trust that you will be mindful about avoiding making similar posts.

I'm going to continue to administrate the forums the same way I always have, by consulting with the team to get opinions and advice before I do something. You're also aware of what in your posting I take issue with, as I took the effort to show in your last appeal. If I make warnings and rulings towards you in the future that you disagree with you can appeal them.

If headmins would like to provide me with feedback about my judgement of your posting they are welcome to do so here or in admin channels.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by sinfulbliss » #673604

Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:44 am don't mistake any mishandling of past appeals for a complete lack of culpability on your part, because the totality of your posting is what triggered this entire fiasco in the first place.
I view these things as entirely separate. The mishandling of the appeal is why I'm being given the chance to reappeal it to begin with, while the mishandling of the ban is the basis for the appeal.
Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:44 am Rave is giving you not just a shortcut to being unbanned without the headmins having to wade in and complicate this even more. Rave is also giving you a piece of advice that the status quo you were maintaining is untenable in the long-term. I'm finding myself generally in agreement with that latter point, although not to the same level as Rave has expressed in this and the previous appeal.
I may be mistaken, but it didn't appear to me to be intended as advice. To me it read as a condition I must agree to to be unbanned. 'Stop posting in ways that make me want to ban you' is very different to me than 'agree to not break the rules.'

Agreeing not to make drama-stirring posts like the one I was warned for? You got it man.
Agreeing not to lean in to posts people disagreed with to get a further rise, relishing in the chaos? You got it man.
Agreeing not to say anything that people might disagree with? Then there's no point to being unbanned in the first place. That's the point of discussion.
Timberpoes wrote:If your entire argument is that everything in the original ban is baseless and you're a blameless saint just waiting for the headmins to overturn it all, then you need to take a course in room reading because you're highly unlikely to get that exact outcome.
I may have not been clear in my argument for the ban to be overturned. I'll organize it here:
1. The post I was banned for wasn't rulebreaking, so the ban shouldn't have been applied for this reason.
2. The post history Rave cited in the previous appeal also wasn't rulebreaking, so the ban shouldn't have been applied for that reason either.

You've mentioned you think there were problems with my post history but not to the degree Rave argues. Hopefully the things I've agreed to above would make my posts more amenable, but I have no interest in following the vague, extreme sort of standard Rave is asking me to, even if it means an instant unban today. I apologize in advance if that comes across as stubborn or prideful but I intend on following the conditions I agree to instead of just paying lip service for a quick unban, so hopefully that explains my reasoning.

EDIT: I suppose this is resolved.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by RaveRadbury » #673607

sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:50 am Hopefully the things I've agreed to above would make my posts more amenable, but I have no interest in following the vague, extreme sort of standard Rave is asking me to, even if it means an instant unban today. I apologize in advance if that comes across as stubborn or prideful but I intend on following the conditions I agree to instead of just paying lip service for a quick unban, so hopefully that explains my reasoning.
I respect that you have the integrity to not pay lip service in a situation like this.

Please update yourself on the rules of the Player's Club, as they have changed since you last visited.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by Timberpoes » #673617

Sometimes we end up vagueposting because we're trying to convey a spirit instead of a literal intent. It's tough to cock up expressing things in term of the their spirit, but I agree it's also not very precise.

I want to clarify further on your latter point of saying disagreeable things; the issue is less saying things people disagree with. This happens all the time. It's more with your approach, demeanor and manner in doing so.

I'm trying to avoid getting preachy, but sometimes you seemed to relish being the contrarian. It felt like you took stances less because you good-faith stood by them, and more because it caused arguments, shock or generated heated negative conflict between others.

What I just mentioned above about approach etc. factors into this because they influence perception of what and why you're posting. That perception is, lacking any evidence to prove anything else, what you'll be judged on far more than what you feel your intent is.

The same holds true for every other forum poster, but in your very rare case the outside perception versus what you feel your intent is differ that much more than for a majority of other posters. So I ask you to keep in mind how others would perceive your posts when you're talking controversial topics and hot takes, and consider your wording carefully in these instances if you feel it necessary to post at all on the subject matter.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Playersclub Ban - Electric Boogaloo edition

Post by sinfulbliss » #673639

Timberpoes wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:17 am Sometimes we end up vagueposting because we're trying to convey a spirit instead of a literal intent. It's tough to cock up expressing things in term of the their spirit, but I agree it's also not very precise.

I want to clarify further on your latter point of saying disagreeable things; the issue is less saying things people disagree with. This happens all the time. It's more with your approach, demeanor and manner in doing so.

I'm trying to avoid getting preachy, but sometimes you seemed to relish being the contrarian. It felt like you took stances less because you good-faith stood by them, and more because it caused arguments, shock or generated heated negative conflict between others.

What I just mentioned above about approach etc. factors into this because they influence perception of what and why you're posting. That perception is, lacking any evidence to prove anything else, what you'll be judged on far more than what you feel your intent is.

The same holds true for every other forum poster, but in your very rare case the outside perception versus what you feel your intent is differ that much more than for a majority of other posters. So I ask you to keep in mind how others would perceive your posts when you're talking controversial topics and hot takes, and consider your wording carefully in these instances if you feel it necessary to post at all on the subject matter.
I agree that's the best way to go about it, I have come to find that that sort of communication doesn't do a good job convincing people of your point of view, so I've lost interest in it regardless. It's much more challenging and also fun to make your spicy opinion amenable enough to get honest consideration than it is to make it burn as hot as you can.

Everyone has varying sensitivities to what Scoville unit of dialogue they're comfortable engaging in. I can differ with but respect Rave's personal tolerance for it, but when it comes to moderation it seems best to enforce the community's tolerance for it rather than one's own.

In the thread I was banned in, discussion reached a certain Scoville level, and despite most of the room tolerating it well, it resulted in three immediate bans - all of which were applied in serious error, not least my own but Timonk being banned for what was grossly misread as an accusation, and Typhnox being banned for what amounts to justifying themselves unprompted.

Either way I'm glad to put it all behind us and don't expect the issue will come up ever again really.
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