[Saegremir] Executing a det as HoS as retaliation.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:58 pm

Byond account and character name: David273, David Whyvenyr

Banning admin: Saegremir

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Security roles, week.

Ban reason and length: Murdered the detective and hid the body because he wouldn't give him a survival medipen they found on a miner. Could not get a
better excuse out of him other than "I got shot" once as he was trying to taze him to take the pen back.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): Shortly earlier.

Your side of the story: I was HoS. Dirty Dan was a detective. First thing in the round, a miner is running around the sec hall with no ID and hitting stuff with a flashlight. I pepper spray and search them for a reason why they were spazzing out, and release them when I find nothing. In the process, I find their survival pen and help myself for it because this guy's spazzing out and wasting my time for seemingly no reason. I go to take it and Dan swipes it and runs off. I yell at him to bring it back, and he stabs himself with it, wasting it and runs off again. I yell at him for wasting that and say he's gonna get beat up if I catch him.

Minutes later I see him in the bar shooting at the bartender. I taze him and go to cuff him, and he pops back up before I can somehow and starts shooting the bar up before he escapes. Where I was going to just rough him up a little previously, he's proven now to be dangerously incompetent and I call the ward and have him set to arrest.

A while passes and after dunking a wizard practically solo and incinerating the body he spends his time mocking me over comms or PDA, saying how I'll never find him, I'm shit, etc. I take the wizard's tele scroll to science for research, and go into south sci maint for a patrol, and guess who I catch a glimpse of. Knowing he's there, I get ready for a fight, but suddenly out he pops from a closet and shoots me. Now certain he's rogue because he just fucking SHOT ME, I yell out my location over comms, recover, and kill him on the spot.

Time passes and I get a bwoink. It's "Administrator" demanding to know why I killed the detective. I start out by saying that I killed him because he fucking SHOT me and had been an antagonizing little shit all shift. I get as far as explaining that he stole and wasted the survival pen when I DC, and when I come back Saeg has zero interest in listening to anything more I say, and bans me with """the information he has""" and """killing the detective for a missclick""".

Why you think you should be unbanned: Saegremir literally stopped listening after the first part of the story, and concluded by that that obviously the detective dindu nuffin. I had zero reason to believe he was anything other than an antag after I was shot by him after he popped out of a closet in maint.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:08 pm #247074

>chase someone around trying to kick his ass over a survival pen
>surprised when you get stunned ~once~ and then left alone
TIME TO MURDER THE DETECTIVE.

Bonus, all the chatlogs since the start of the round until you killed him.

Spoiler:

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:12 pm

>Got stunned once
>After he was set to arrest for (from my perspective) attempting to kill the bartender
>I was after him for a survival pen

Stick to your story it's great Saeg

>He never bothered to explain anything
>Had all round to do so

Also shoutouts for not posting any of the logs where he shot the bartender or spazzed out after shooting the bartender and shooting all over the place.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:25 pm

Relevant logs.

Spoiler:

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:37 pm #247102

Oh good you saved me the trouble of posting it.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:40 pm

I believe you'll find everything is as I said it was and thus I had literally zero reason to believe the detective wasn't rogue.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:52 pm #247110

Hindsight bias is a bit of a mess, but if you look carefully at your own posted logs you'll see he shook you up... twice. He could have said something like "sorry" though.

I'm trying not to laugh that he preemptively used his epi pen just so you couldn't use it. What an arse.

Idk on one hand the guy wasn't an antag so valid theory would put shadow in the wrong, however being a jerk all round to the guy then ""accidentally"" shooting the person you've been a jerk to all round then [presumably] ahelping when they panic [because you shot them] and lethaled your sorry tail would probably have made me just rule 10 the ordeal. If you accidently shoot someone after egging them all round, and then pretend to go "b-b-b-but why???!?!?!?!?", I'm not sure what to tell you.

That's of course me taking this from the thread and not the entirety of the situation which may have more context.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:57 pm

He used the pen so that he would be stunned slightly less if I got him if I had to guess.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:57 am

So now that I've produced logs that have proven that everything I said was true, I feel as though the ban should at least be reversed and possibly have Dan get hit with a banbaiting charge.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:04 am #247154

You are correct, everything you said it true.

Going on a manhunt over a survival pen is retarded, killing and hiding the body is crossing the line. This is the kind of shitsec we should be moving away from.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:06 am

You're literally not paying any attention Saeg. I wasn't going on a manhunt over the stupid pen you fool, I only set him to arrest AFTER HE SHOT THE BARTENDER AND SHOT UP THE BAR AND RAN and the ONLY reason I executed him was because the idiot SHOT ME as I went to arrest him.

Further, I didn't hide the body. I took it to the warden, stripped him, and put him in the sec mourge tray.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:08 am #247159

So it's okay for you to stun him but not for him to stun you, you who has been chasing him all round because you wanted to kick his ass over a healy pen.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:17 am

This isn't about who stunned who, this is about someone acting like an antag and getting treated like an antag.

I know you're willfully ignoring the entire rest of the story and are just hyper-focused on the literal first encounter we had together that was utterly irrelevant in the bigger picture but for the third time, HE SHOT THE BARTENDER, SHOT AT ME, RAN, AND SHOT ME AS I TRY TO ARREST HIM.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:20 am #247162

You set him to arrest, threatened to kick his ass, then shot at him. Wow whoa it goes both ways. He's an idiot trying to use a revolver to take down Pun Pun while drunk, you killed and ensured he wouldn't be cloned and the best excuse you could give me at the time is HE TOOK MY PEN. Both of you use stun weapons.

Take time off sec roles, i'm going to bed.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:24 am

I set him to arrest AFTER he shot the bartender and towards me you imbecile, and I only shot him because he had just shot the fucking bartender. And I gave you a better excuse, I gave you the WHOLE STORY, but you fucking ignored it.

I need a new admin in here, Saeg is being an idiot and refuses to listen to facts and basic escalation.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:28 am #247164

"""basic escalation"""

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:29 am

Verbal > Nonlethal subduing > Lethal subduing

Post by **Arianya** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:45 am #247167

Peanut gallery posting

Stop confiscating unrelated items as "compensation for your time", this is legitimate badsec play.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:50 am

Pretty sure this is the first time I've done it, and I only really did it at all because I doubted the miner was going to ever mine anyways.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:37 am #247190

Also peanut posting:
I feel like it might be worth looking into the detective's general behaviour that round. Starting a shoot out with the bartender by killing Pun Pun because ??? is pretty fucking shitty. Seems like it'd be a good idea to see if he was trying to start shit with anyone else that round

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:59 am

I spoke with the det after Saeg booted me from my body, apparently Pun Pun stole the barkeep's shotgun and he was trying to get it back.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:30 pm

Still waiting for a headmin ruling because Saeg's stubborn ass isn't listening.

WarbossLincoln · Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:32 pm

Another Peanut post like Arianya:

I think you went overboard in killing him, I would have fired him, confiscated all his sec gear, and booted him out of the brig after a jail sentence. But I don't think this should cop a ban, a warning probably.

Also agree with Arianya. Don't confiscate someone's stuff that wasn't used in a crime/illegal just because you're annoyed. That's textbook shitsec.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:34 pm

I would have only fired him had the dumb motherfucker not shot me.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:14 pm #247347

I'm actually with Shadow on this one. If the guy had just been insubordination and shitty then yeah, firing him would have been appropriate. Firing on your commanding officer, not just with a taser but with actual bullets (I know they were just .38s but they still hurt and do damage)? You have fucked up in the biggest way you can fuck up and you deserve the most extreme punishment.

Mugging the miner was still absolute shit though

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:14 pm #247348

ShadowDimentio wrote:I would have only fired him had the dumb motherfucker not shot me.

Saegrimr wrote:So it's okay for you to stun him but not for him to stun you, you who has been chasing him all round because you wanted to kick his ass over a healy pen.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:31 pm

I'm the HoS tazing someone I believe is guilty of attempted murder at minimum (for shooting the bartender) and high treason (shooting at me as he attempted to escape) at worse.

He's shooting the HoS, his BOSS and a HEAD in MAINT, for saying he's gonna beat you up.

I know you're hysterically biased Saeg but you're actually retarded if you can't see the difference between these two things.

Act like an antag, get treated like an antag.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:38 pm #247357

He's the det stunning someone who has been on a crusade to hunt him down over a survival pen.

You're the goon who opens up the shift talking about the gas chambers and ordering public beatdowns and you really REALLY don't think someone wouldn't want to "go quietly" with you to the brig?

I know you lack the basic mental processes to follow silicon laws which is why you're permanently banned from them, but shit dude. I'd ban you from everything but Janitor to go with your forum avatar but you'd find some way to cock that up too.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:45 pm

Saegrimr wrote:You're the goon who opens up the shift talking about the gas chambers and ordering public beatdowns and you really REALLY don't think someone wouldn't want to "go quietly" with you to the brig?

>I'm the guy opening up the shift talking about gas chambers

joke
jōk/
noun
noun: joke; plural noun: jokes

1.
a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline.

I'm glad we've confirmed, however, that you're hysterically biased against me and too incompetent to handle this appeal, Saeg.

Headmins if you would give this appeal a review, along with Saeg's incompetence and bias, that'd be roses, thanks.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:11 pm #247370

j-just a prank

Also no you don't get to pull the high ground card out now. Works both ways, you wanna be a snarky little turd then you get low effort replies.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:16 pm

I posted all the logs and completely proved everything I said was true. All you've done is autistically fixate on a stupid verbal fight over survival pen that didn't matter for shit and try to use that as an excuse for all of the detective's fuckups.

Please find the exit Saeg, you aren't needed any longer.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:20 pm #247372

ShadowDimentio wrote:I posted all the logs and completely proved everything I said was true.

The situation as describe undeniably and provably happened, yes.
This isn't a case of whether it happened or not, this is a case of you going over the line.

I'd tell you to find the exit as well but i've already made sure nobody has to deal with you as shitcurity for a week.

ShadowDimentio · Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:27 pm

Ah yes the line of killing a dipshit who shot a head in maint.

Act like an antag, get treated like an antag.

Also reminder that Saeg has literally proven none of his claims. Especially where he claimed I went on a crusade against the detective and chased him all shift.

Saegrimr wrote:He's the det stunning someone who has been on a crusade to hunt him down over a survival pen.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:31 pm #247377

ShadowDimentio wrote:Ah yes the line of killing a dipshit who shot a head in maint.

Saegrimr wrote:So it's okay for you to stun him but not for him to stun you, you who has been chasing him all round because you wanted to kick his ass over a healy pen.

Oh and

[22:00:20]SAY: David Whyvenyr : Dirty Dan. The faggot stole and wasted a perfectly good survival pen.
[22:00:32]SAY: David Whyvenyr : If anyone sees him, beat him intensely.
[22:00:46]SAY: David Whyvenyr : See how much he likes his pen then.
[22:01:34]SAY: David Whyvenyr : Ward
[22:01:40]SAY: David Whyvenyr : Set Dan to arrest.
[22:02:39]SAY: David Whyvenyr : He's set to arrest.
[22:03:00]PDA: Dirty Dan (PDA: PDA-Dirty Dan (Detective)) sent "Stop being shitcurity please" to PDA-David Whyvenyr (Head of Security)

[22:10:06]SAY: David Whyvenyr : The faggot detective is dead.
[22:10:15]SAY: David Whyvenyr : Victory is mine.

:thinking:

TehSteveo · Post by **TehSteveo** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:39 pm #247419

Firstly, the actions of helping yourself to someone's belongings in a search is some the most basic of shitcurity behavior; behavior which I'm willing to bet the detective took your 'reward' for yourself because of that, which isn't really the best way to go about it obviously.

After the pen incident, you state you are going to beat the detective up and order others to beat him up immensely if they see him as well as have him set to arrest. While this occurs and the whole wizard buisness goes down, the detective finds himself at the bar getting drunk being served by the bartender. At which point in the logs it appears he pulls out his revolver and shot the barkeep and the bar's monkey. You then claim you come upon the detective attempting to murder the barkeep. Yet, I can't really fathom how the detective shooting the bartender and the bar monkey once would equal murder as .38 special as you'd have to unload all six shots to put someone into near critical with it. What I see with all posted logs is the detective was at the bar boozing up and looks to have discharged his weapon like a drunken wretch either by accident or part of playing his said role. This behavior is worth a demotion, for sure but not the execution that you swiftly carried out.

In all honesty, following your conflict with the detective it went from the detective taking something you had confiscated, to you trying to stun and cuff the detective with the addition that he discharged his weapons at someone, to the detective running from you then stunning you once, he actually shakes you instead of following through for further stuns, cuffs, or killing; to you finally stunning the detective then lasering him dead when you could have detained him. With the additional information above I honestly don't think this is proper escalation; even with your defense of that they shot you, the Head of Security, but with context of prior information that you wanted to cause harm to him I'm not sure if he was so willing to go nor did you attempt to establish any dialogue beyond that point with them.

In addition, you also are not noted for the best of security play. Within the last year, you accumulated two notes in regards to poor security conduct; so I honestly don't believe at this point taking a week break from security will do you harm to reconsider some behavior when you are playing security. This is denied.

ShadowDimentio · Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:37 am

TehPear wrote:Firstly, the actions of helping yourself to someone's belongings in a search is some the most basic of shitcurity behavior; behavior which I'm willing to bet the detective took your 'reward' for yourself because of that, which isn't really the best way to go about it obviously.

It's the first time I've ever done it and the only reason I did it was because the miner very obviously never was going to bother going mining was was likely going to suicide shortly later. Which they did by stabbing themselves to death with their knife, look at the logs.

After the pen incident, you state you are going to beat the detective up and order others to beat him up immensely if they see him as well as have him set to arrest.

Wrong. I ordered them to be beat up, mostly as a joke because the only other sec staff was the warden and I knew they were never going to meet. He was never touched by me outside the shot in the bar and me killing him, further he was set to arrest AFTER the bar indecent, look at the logs.

While this occurs and the whole wizard buisness goes down, the detective finds himself at the bar getting drunk being served by the bartender. At which point in the logs it appears he pulls out his revolver and shot the barkeep and the bar's monkey. You then claim you come upon the detective attempting to murder the barkeep. Yet, I can't really fathom how the detective shooting the bartender and the bar monkey once would equal murder as .38 special as you'd have to unload all six shots to put someone into near critical with it.

Hindsight is bleeding from your ruling. I passed by the bar window and saw the detective shooting. I didn't know how many times he had shot or was going to keep shooting, but I did know from the pen incedent that the detective was shit, and the bartender was just standing at their post so I doubted they did anything wrong. I had literally a second to decide what to do and I decided to taze the detective for, y'know, SHOOTING THE BARTENDER.

What I see with all posted logs is the detective was at the bar boozing up and looks to have discharged his weapon like a drunken wretch either by accident or part of playing his said role. This behavior is worth a demotion, for sure but not the execution that you swiftly carried out.

Incorrect yet again. The detective got tazed, then because of his survival pen from earlier he popped right back up, fired wildly at me, and ran away. He was then set to arrest at my order because he just SHOT THE BARTENDER AND AT ME

In all honesty, following your conflict with the detective it went from the detective taking something you had confiscated,

He actually stole it. Had I not ordered him to bring it back (read the logs, they'll corroborate this) he would have kept it for himself, which is, as you said earlier, is classic shitcurity.

to you trying to stun and cuff the detective with the addition that he discharged his weapons at someone,

He shot the bartender, which I saw to be attempted murder. That gun is dangerous as hell.

to the detective running from you then stunning you once, he actually shakes you instead of following through for further stuns, cuffs, or killing; to you finally stunning the detective then lasering him dead when you could have detained him.

He hid in maint for a solid ten minutes, and when I finally found him he didn't surrender or try to explain, he hid in a locker, buffed his stun resistance with an epipen and popped out as I went looking for him, ambushing me. He didn't just "accidentally" shoot me, he laid in wait and attacked me. Get in my shoes for a second-- you're HoS and somebody you've had bad altercations with all shift and had been set to arrest suddenly pops out of a locker in maint and gets the drop on you. You desperately call out your location, an action that (for me) drew my whole attention for a moment, and recover. I dunno about you, but I'm returning fire and winning the fight, not risking all of my sec gear potentially falling into untoward hands and getting tons of people killed.

With the additional information above I honestly don't think this is proper escalation; even with your defense of that they shot you, the Head of Security, but with context of prior information that you wanted to cause harm to him I'm not sure if he was so willing to go nor did you attempt to establish any dialogue beyond that point with them.

The stupid fucker had a PDA and a hec headset. He had ten minutes of hiding in maint to try and explain himself and what was happening in the bar. The story I got out of him in deadchat was that Pun Pun had gotten the bartender's gun and the detective was shooting him to get it back, and accidentally hit the bartender. Had he explained this, I would have spoken with the bartender and if they had affirmed that was what happened I would have called off his arrest and apologized for the misunderstanding.

In addition, you also are not noted for the best of security play. Within the last year, you accumulated two notes in regards to poor security conduct; so I honestly don't believe at this point taking a week break from security will do you harm to reconsider some behavior when you are playing security. This is denied.

TWO NOTES IN A YEAR, HAH! Do you have ANY idea how few that is? That's like one every fifty sec rounds. Give me a fucking break.

You're either objectively incorrect or are making big incorrect assumptions.

IrishWristWatch0 · Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:42 am

>ask for a headmin
>Tell him his decision is wrong.

High score.

ShadowDimentio · Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:43 am

His state of events is objectively wrong.

TehSteveo · Post by **TehSteveo** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:48 am #247554

I spent likely over an hour looking at logs, matching up both say and attack with one another, and discussing this over with Lzimann. Your logic is flimsy in plenty of areas, you ignore parts and only attach to certain others that add some context to what happened. Telling me I'm wrong isn't going to work. Denied and locked.