[Ban Appeal][rohesie] libbysnow - command ban

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Reeeee
 
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:46 am
Byond Username: LibbySnow

[Ban Appeal][rohesie] libbysnow - command ban

Postby Reeeee » Fri May 03, 2019 7:16 am #491928

Your Byond ckey: libbysnow
Your character name: Laura Kzer-Za
Admin who banned you: Rohesie
Type of ban: command
Ban duration: INFINITE
Ban reason: fun stuff, i don't think i can access the exact wording since serber is down and stuff. It has words in it.
Let's assume those are true.
"Not adhering to RP standards" I imagine is the concise reason.
There was few sentences tossed back and forth.

Your side of the story:

Tl;Dr:
Nobody was hurt IC, immersion wise or OOC, permabanned from roles, I feel this is unjust.

Well, funny stuff, I got banned in one round permanently from all command for not adhering to the standards.
This is fine and all, but those standards..........
"held to a higher standard" was only thing referenced to me. And i have seen it like... Twenty times now on round start? To me, so far, this has meant in context of moderation/administration as; "if you have good joke or a story hook, admins will play along with it."


And you call me out on medaling myself and honest to god slip-ups in vernacular in the year of our lord 2019 when net-speak is slipping to general vernacular?

Let's consider the last straw of this;
I gave a UPP mercenary a medal for (assuming) he burned my orders right in front of me "for massive balls"; exact wording escapes me. (he did burn my orders too, the git.) This is what i would consider harmless fun and far, FAR from the worst i have done in same position before for months now.
Not that i have much done anything besides click on overwatch to keep it organized and balanced and ran RO duties when bored or messaged command (admins) with nonsense.
It was giving UPP guy the medal for burning my orders.
Should I have shot him or something?
I'm legitimately asking what is the proper course of action if i can't medal him for having balls of steel?
IIRC we had a discussion where intentional FF is not allowed in any circumstance when that was on my foot (arm, the gun i mean.) Accident; but didn't pursue it since, fine, notes are notes and that did happen.
Your problem was I had a slang term in the medal?
Sooooo?

Before this on the same round; two-three instances of OOC in ICK and giving myself (all of the) medals as captain nobody sees until round ends with semi retarded descriptors. I don't think anyone can even see those unless they REALLY try during the round? Oh right, someone can read the descriptors of the medals themselves on CiC.
Immersion breaking I guess.

Note was added for the medals; I carried on bit surprised someone actually cares.
And that thing that triggered it the ban; me giving a medal to a guy for having massive balls?
That was the most IC thing I have done as Cap since... forever?

Anyhoo, sthuff slips, we all get that, right?
Lag is now something we can't reference IC? That's... new.
Like today new.
Casually informing others that you are suffering from it seems just good manners to me and matter of course, especially if it's time sensitive. Not having used to LOOC and nobody has ever cared to note that before except when i get so drunk that netspeek starts to override the chatting and I take a gulp of water.
But hey c'mon; one of the reasons for ban being "talked about lag IC" seems, you know, something I have to mention.

Let's consider these examples from me in command roles for sake of "standards" that did not hit the "standard" ceiling, with admin response to those events;
Calling on roundstart we were now fighting mice;
Admins responded with Spawning mice ERT to invade Theseus and cheese for mice to have as objectives.
Mice invaded Theseus.
Mice.
Admin spawned Mice with objectives to secure the Cheese since i kept referencing xenomorphs as Mice. This same round included at least twenty instances of me OOCKING in IIICK and generally being a useless git.
None of this even raised an eyebrow nor a bwoink to chill that stuff down.
Calling on roundstart we are now fighting Truckasaurus Rex and it's Tonka trucks;
No response from admins, nobody much cared iirc.
Giving everyone medals based the moment with descriptors like "amazingly funny guy, would FF any day";
No response.
Repeateadly.
And few times more.
Noting that admins spawned mice on Engineering as replacements on lowpop with mes sending a message to Command and requesting crate of cheese to pay for them;
Hit with EMP Cheese crate that critted me and tore all my limbs off. (might have killed me, someone was on that aheal button, eh?)
Repeatedly referencing myself as catgirl et all;
Repeatedly given said tail and ears.
Once my brain was "removed" as FC/Major when i responded with "it must be my brain i'm missing" to "you seem to be missing something" whisper from admins following a catgirl round where i had such OOCKILY ICKY accouterments.
I had a conversation with my missing brain next to me.
Generally ignoring my existence for months with descriptor I have now that goes along the lines of:
"Lanky girl, you can *almost* see the cattail wagging"
Asking to be named "cat" as Xeno queen;
Given and renamed.
Since cats are not part of the "core" gameplay experience in TCGM, i can only assume those are OOC in IC by definition.
Repeatedly responding to IC to admin whispers since i'm too lazy to use verbs at (all) times;
Conversation carries on like nothing was strange, once i even had station bounced on as SL and nothing was noted to be odd about this.
Multiple times being drunk as heck IC and OOC
Various levels on lack of cohesion in communication and generally trying to socket a round peg into triangle hole events.
I think sighs and giggles is the thing that happened in achat because of it.
Never got back to me on any level.
Variously shouting "mutiny", "req is broken" and "lynch" at times with names attached.
Never heard from these.
Asimoving newbies HARD and making life terrible for command staff with "i only answer to captain" responses.
Never noticed as far as i can tell.

This has not been noted by moderation in any shape or form besides positive if it has been noted. Let's be honest, above examples are wholly retarded and certainly breaking the "higher standard" you so nebulously referenced applying to command staff. (well, captain first but then you referenced all of command to be under that.)

So, i'm not so much appealing the ban as asking for you to come up with a reason for this ban that made you do it near instantly at roundstart for things i have been doing for months and upward now as command staff with full blessing and support from admin team when they cared enough to do anything about it.
And yes, you have been around for this Rohesie.
You have seen this happen repeatedly.
Yet nothing was noted to me that i should chill it or pull it back a notch.
Apart from; "hey psst, less nettalk" once or twice bwoinks.
You may note i have maybe one note for that? Or is it on Bagil/Sybil? Same thing I guess.

I was command blanket banned for having fun.
you'd think you'd get that sort of thing for being malicious.
or griefing.
Leaving a SM shard on main hallway as cap? I totally deserve that perma.
but naw man, i gave myself medals with fun stuff like "got up in the morning"
for heroic bravery

See, if this was such an issue, why was it *NOW* that I was permabanned from command on such grounds?
I mean, if this was repeated behavior I was repeatedly noted for, fair enough. That certainly would warrant blanket ban. But it wasn't. It was out of the blue and you Rohesie, all honesty, literally cherry picked something to tack on to.
There was MONTHS of this stuff to note before now.
I would have HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of notes for this if it really was breaking the standard.
You didn't even warn me before hand.

Entire marine force discussing crayons and going "unga bunga" so much so that's not even noted now seems also, you know, very ICKy, but I guess that's a separate standard since standards have separators otherwise they are not standards?
Hey, who cares about marines discussing "damage values" captain is giving herself medals nobody can read.


Why do you think you should be unbanned:

Either bias, personal or outside influence caused this ban to be applied in such rush, for behavior that was approved not 24 hours earlier, that I have to question it and the reasons behind it.
If this was malicious in any shape or from or repeated behavior, fair enough, guess i would deserve it.
You catered to this behavior before.

What changed?
Outside influence or sudden change in policy that swapped to being zero tolerance in a heartbeat without warning.
So.

Asking me to take your adminning seriously is kinda asking for lot when you pulled this one out of your hat and bullrushed it thru with such gusto for something was most definitely not malicious.
You referenced this in the final moments of server shutting down, taking you seriously.
This is 180 in what and how behavior is moderated.

I'm presenting above examples as counterargument to this entire affair.

And not even changed, this was APPROVED and SUPPORTED way to act and behave.
Now it's direct opposite of it and I was banned for it with no warning in the span of, what was that round? 30 minutes? 25 of playtime?
If you want me command banned, make it so, but don't make stuff up on the spot.
I have given you on a plate reasons to ban me from command for breaking immersion/not adhering to standards if you wanna keep it going as is your right.
But don't asspull it out of the blue without at least telling me standards have changed since the last 24 hours.

This just smells awkward as hell to me to get such a ban for stuff that's been supported until now with humor and good feels all around.
If nothing else, you can edit the note to include all above instances as reference why it was applied.
Not that you much care, apparently, you mentioned a permaban being a distinct possibility if i didn't change my style or something?
Man, I thought games were supposed to be for fun.


"Don't be retarded, play retarded, TGCM." line i tossed into OOC once was supported by adminchoir as being accurate and something to emulate.



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Rohesie
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:07 pm
Byond Username: Rohesie

Re: [Ban Appeal][rohesie] libbysnow - command ban

Postby Rohesie » Sat May 04, 2019 1:55 am #492079

Alright, this is a long appeal, and the gist of it, from what I understand it, is that you believe your behavior was acceptable due to the precedents you've quoted. Let's try to take and address each point.

Reeeee wrote:Ban reason: fun stuff, i don't think i can access the exact wording since serber is down and stuff. It has words in it.
Let's assume those are true.
"Not adhering to RP standards" I imagine is the concise reason.
There was few sentences tossed back and forth.


The ban reason is the following:

"Banned from command roles due to unwillingess or inability to follow the required role standards. Didn't seem to take the admin messages seriously either. Should change their game style to keep playing here."

Reeeee wrote:Your side of the story:
Tl;Dr:
Nobody was hurt IC, immersion wise or OOC, permabanned from roles, I feel this is unjust.


The immersion part is where we disagree.

Reeeee wrote:And you call me out on medaling myself and honest to god slip-ups in vernacular in the year of our lord 2019 when net-speak is slipping to general vernacular?


Netspeak is explicitly stated to be against the rules.
Rule 3.3: Smileys :), netspeak (lol), SPEAKING ONLY IN CAPS LOCKS and other forms of grammatical or punctuation abuse fall into the context of this rule.

As for the medals, you were messaged and requested not to do it on the same round, after giving yourself four of them, all meme ones, and given a note for it:
"As Captain awarded themselves with the following medals: 'woke up', 'stubbed a toe, very ouch', 'very brave, wow', 'dared to go into CiC', 'i commend me for being a catgirl'. Was informed about the role being held to higher standards. Their answer was "pfft, fine"."

Our administration policy is that we'll always try to mentor the players instead of punishing, only applying bans when the person seems unable or unwilling to follow the rules, not for mistakes. For some reason you decided not to take it seriously and did it again, on the same round.

Reeeee wrote:Let's consider the last straw of this;
I gave a UPP mercenary a medal for (assuming) he burned my orders right in front of me "for massive balls"; exact wording escapes me. (he did burn my orders too, the git.) This is what i would consider harmless fun and far, FAR from the worst i have done in same position before for months now.
Not that i have much done anything besides click on overwatch to keep it organized and balanced and ran RO duties when bored or messaged command (admins) with nonsense.
It was giving UPP guy the medal for burning my orders.
Should I have shot him or something?
I'm legitimately asking what is the proper course of action if i can't medal him for having balls of steel?
IIRC we had a discussion where intentional FF is not allowed in any circumstance when that was on my foot (arm, the gun i mean.) Accident; but didn't pursue it since, fine, notes are notes and that did happen.
Your problem was I had a slang term in the medal?
Sooooo?


You can ask for more extensive clarification on the policy sections of either the forums or discord, but medals are military commendations. The question here is on whether you see any issues RP-wise about granting one to a random UPP person with that reason.

By nature RP standards are impossible to fully define. Roleplay is weaving narratives, and quality is subjective. However, our rules do hint at a certain level of realism we'd like in lines such as Escalation: "The key to determining if they are valid or not is whether they are RP-fitting. If an action would realistically cause you to be executed, permanently imprisoned, or dishonorably discharged at best, then it’s probably not fitting in the context." and Rule 3.5 " The intent of the naming rule is to preserve a certain degree of immersion. As a general guideline, if it wouldn't fit in a new non-comedy sci-fi work, it likely won't fit here. This is subjective and ultimately up to the discretion of the admins and lore people. Ask if in doubt to get your name approved. "

I cannot see the actions of your character fitting in anything but a comedy/parody work, really.

Reeeee wrote:Before this on the same round; two-three instances of OOC in ICK and giving myself (all of the) medals as captain nobody sees until round ends with semi retarded descriptors. I don't think anyone can even see those unless they REALLY try during the round? Oh right, someone can read the descriptors of the medals themselves on CiC.
Immersion breaking I guess.

Note was added for the medals; I carried on bit surprised someone actually cares.
And that thing that triggered it the ban; me giving a medal to a guy for having massive balls?
That was the most IC thing I have done as Cap since... forever?

Anyhoo, sthuff slips, we all get that, right?
Lag is now something we can't reference IC? That's... new.
Like today new.
Casually informing others that you are suffering from it seems just good manners to me and matter of course, especially if it's time sensitive. Not having used to LOOC and nobody has ever cared to note that before except when i get so drunk that netspeek starts to override the chatting and I take a gulp of water.
But hey c'mon; one of the reasons for ban being "talked about lag IC" seems, you know, something I have to mention.


You may disagree with the rule and that is fine. The problem is when you are asked not to do it, agree to it, and then fail to follow through your word.
You were not banned for giving yourself meme medals, OOCing in IC and failing to perform up to the required standards of the role. You were banned for repeating that after being asked to change, agreeing to it and being noted for it, on the same round. If you are unwilling to follow the rules there's not much we can do for you.

Being drunk is not really an excuse. If you cannot follow the rules drunk, then you should play sober only.
Having broken a rule and it slipping by the admin's notice doesn't mean it's ok. Admins are not omniscient.

Reeeee wrote:Let's consider these examples from me in command roles for sake of "standards" that did not hit the "standard" ceiling, with admin response to those events;
Calling on roundstart we were now fighting mice;
Admins responded with Spawning mice ERT to invade Theseus and cheese for mice to have as objectives.
Mice invaded Theseus.
Mice.
Admin spawned Mice with objectives to secure the Cheese since i kept referencing xenomorphs as Mice. This same round included at least twenty instances of me OOCKING in IIICK and generally being a useless git.
None of this even raised an eyebrow nor a bwoink to chill that stuff down.


Mice in a ship seems not really immersion-breaking? I suppose it would depend on how it was done. I wasn't part of it so can't comment on the specifics, but if you feel it broke the guidelines there's a section of the forum for feedback on events and we can talk about it.
If you OOCed in IC, that's a rule violation. If you were being an useless git, and you acknowledge it, that falls into this part of the ban reason: "Should change their game style to keep playing here".
The fact that you were not bwoinked about it does not make it ok.

Reeeee wrote:Calling on roundstart we are now fighting Truckasaurus Rex and it's Tonka trucks;
No response from admins, nobody much cared iirc.
Giving everyone medals based the moment with descriptors like "amazingly funny guy, would FF any day";
No response.
Repeateadly.
And few times more.
(...)
Generally ignoring my existence for months with descriptor I have now that goes along the lines of:
"Lanky girl, you can *almost* see the cattail wagging"
(...)
Multiple times being drunk as heck IC and OOC
Various levels on lack of cohesion in communication and generally trying to socket a round peg into triangle hole events.
I think sighs and giggles is the thing that happened in achat because of it.
Never got back to me on any level.
Variously shouting "mutiny", "req is broken" and "lynch" at times with names attached.
Never heard from these.
Asimoving newbies HARD and making life terrible for command staff with "i only answer to captain" responses.
Never noticed as far as i can tell.


The gist of all of these examples are "I broke the rules this time and weren't bwoinked about it". I'd say you were lucky, and you are mistaking admins not noticing it with it being fine. If I see anyone doing any of these you can expect me to poke them about it. Please feel free to report people behaving in such a way. It is not acceptable here.

Reeeee wrote:Noting that admins spawned mice on Engineering as replacements on lowpop with mes sending a message to Command and requesting crate of cheese to pay for them;
Hit with EMP Cheese crate that critted me and tore all my limbs off. (might have killed me, someone was on that aheal button, eh?)
Repeatedly referencing myself as catgirl et all;
Repeatedly given said tail and ears.
Once my brain was "removed" as FC/Major when i responded with "it must be my brain i'm missing" to "you seem to be missing something" whisper from admins following a catgirl round where i had such OOCKILY ICKY accouterments.
I had a conversation with my missing brain next to me.
(...)
Asking to be named "cat" as Xeno queen;
Given and renamed.
Since cats are not part of the "core" gameplay experience in TCGM, i can only assume those are OOC in IC by definition.
Repeatedly responding to IC to admin whispers since i'm too lazy to use verbs at (all) times;
Conversation carries on like nothing was strange, once i even had station bounced on as SL and nothing was noted to be odd about this.


What you describe doesn't seem to be proper admin conduct. Feel free to report them with the specifics and I'll look into them. Can't say much besides that I haven't witnessed any of these, that I can remember.

I'm removing Purrbation, the ability of admins to give felinid ears as a result of this.

Sometimes an admin may do a special event like the payday heist and whatnot, which if properly implemented may add to the round, allowing for some wiggle room on RP, but that's not supposed to happen every round, it should not be part of regular gameplay.

In short, comedic intermissions have some wiggle room as long as they are harmless and engaging. It just can't be the core of the RP.

Reeeee wrote:This has not been noted by moderation in any shape or form besides positive if it has been noted. Let's be honest, above examples are wholly retarded and certainly breaking the "higher standard" you so nebulously referenced applying to command staff. (well, captain first but then you referenced all of command to be under that.)


You are right that the examples are not fitting, that is what this ban is about.

Reeeee wrote:So, i'm not so much appealing the ban as asking for you to come up with a reason for this ban that made you do it near instantly at roundstart for things i have been doing for months and upward now as command staff with full blessing and support from admin team when they cared enough to do anything about it.
And yes, you have been around for this Rohesie.
You have seen this happen repeatedly.
Yet nothing was noted to me that i should chill it or pull it back a notch.
Apart from; "hey psst, less nettalk" once or twice bwoinks.
You may note i have maybe one note for that? Or is it on Bagil/Sybil? Same thing I guess.


Our administration is lax, and tends to trust the players to behave maturely and follow the rules. Please do not confuse it not banning you outright for things and asking politely for you to stop instead for you having a pass to do whatever you want.

Reeeee wrote:I was command blanket banned for having fun.
you'd think you'd get that sort of thing for being malicious.
or griefing.
Leaving a SM shard on main hallway as cap? I totally deserve that perma.
but naw man, i gave myself medals with fun stuff like "got up in the morning"
for heroic bravery


Comparing one rule break with a potential worse one does not really work for making it better.

Reeeee wrote:See, if this was such an issue, why was it *NOW* that I was permabanned from command on such grounds?
I mean, if this was repeated behavior I was repeatedly noted for, fair enough. That certainly would warrant blanket ban. But it wasn't. It was out of the blue and you Rohesie, all honesty, literally cherry picked something to tack on to.
There was MONTHS of this stuff to note before now.
I would have HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of notes for this if it really was breaking the standard.
You didn't even warn me before hand.


The moment the ban was placed is not really relevant. It was addressed right when it was noted.
You were warned beforehand. You chose to ignore the warning.

Reeeee wrote:Entire marine force discussing crayons and going "unga bunga" so much so that's not even noted now seems also, you know, very ICKy, but I guess that's a separate standard since standards have separators otherwise they are not standards?
Hey, who cares about marines discussing "damage values" captain is giving herself medals nobody can read.


You may disagree with the rules, that is fine. But you need to follow them if you want to keep playing here.
If you see other people breaking the rules, please AHelp about it. It does not mean you can do the same.

Reeeee wrote:Why do you think you should be unbanned:
Either bias, personal or outside influence caused this ban to be applied in such rush, for behavior that was approved not 24 hours earlier, that I have to question it and the reasons behind it.
If this was malicious in any shape or from or repeated behavior, fair enough, guess i would deserve it.
You catered to this behavior before.

What changed?
Outside influence or sudden change in policy that swapped to being zero tolerance in a heartbeat without warning.
So.


The behavior was not approved 24 hours before. That seems to be a mistake you are making.

Reeeee wrote:Asking me to take your adminning seriously is kinda asking for lot when you pulled this one out of your hat and bullrushed it thru with such gusto for something was most definitely not malicious.
You referenced this in the final moments of server shutting down, taking you seriously.
This is 180 in what and how behavior is moderated.


I agree you weren't malicious. That's why you only were removed from command roles, and you can always appeal it. The ban could be worse than it is.

Reeeee wrote:And not even changed, this was APPROVED and SUPPORTED way to act and behave.
Now it's direct opposite of it and I was banned for it with no warning in the span of, what was that round? 30 minutes? 25 of playtime?
If you want me command banned, make it so, but don't make stuff up on the spot.
I have given you on a plate reasons to ban me from command for breaking immersion/not adhering to standards if you wanna keep it going as is your right.
But don't asspull it out of the blue without at least telling me standards have changed since the last 24 hours.

This just smells awkward as hell to me to get such a ban for stuff that's been supported until now with humor and good feels all around.
If nothing else, you can edit the note to include all above instances as reference why it was applied.
Not that you much care, apparently, you mentioned a permaban being a distinct possibility if i didn't change my style or something?
Man, I thought games were supposed to be for fun.


Again, this behavior is neither approved nor supported.
Do please quote anyone doing it, and I'll or someone else from the admin team will investigate the claim.

I did not mention a permaban, but I did mention that you should change your play style if you want to keep playing here. It's true, and not a threat. I'd rather you changed it, I have nothing against you. But the attitude needs to change.

Reeeee wrote:"Don't be retarded, play retarded, TGCM." line i tossed into OOC once was supported by adminchoir as being accurate and something to emulate.


Could you please quote whoever supposedly supported this statement?
If this is what you believe then I think this is core to the issues we are having here.

That is not our philosophy, and not what we are aiming at. And if you play following this guideline you can expect nothing but trouble ahead. Hence, please take my request to review your behavior seriously if you want to keep playing here.

---

The question, back to the original issue on lifting the ban, is on whether you understand the issues here, what we are after for the tone of the game and how we'd like for command and players to behave in general. Could you answer that?

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Re: [Ban Appeal][rohesie] libbysnow - command ban

Postby Rohesie » Tue May 21, 2019 7:35 pm #494893

There have been no answers in a bit over two weeks, so I'll be closing and denying this appeal. Feel free to make a new one in the future, taking into account the feedback here shared.


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