[BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

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DNSL
 
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:56 pm

[BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

Postby DNSL » Mon May 04, 2020 9:26 pm #560601

BYOND account: Electricall
Character name: Rudolf von Speer
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 7 days
Ban reason: After conferring with other admins this ban is being applied for round ID 3257, a Whiskey Outpost / AI map. In this round, Electricall shot a fellow marine a few times to "enforce discipline", long before any hostiles spawned. The marine defended himself and killed Electricall, who ahelped about being killed, was revived and then proceeded to kill the Marine. Not only this unwarranted friendly fire/teamkilling/murder but also banbaiting. This ban (BanID #856) was applied by Terranaut on 2020-05-04 19:55:40 during round ID 3532
Time ban was placed: 2020-05-04 19:55:40
Round ID in which ban was placed: 3532
Your side of the story: I resolved it yesterday with Jroinc1. I saw a fist fight in full swing whilst I enteried the Alamo. At that moment I was in the FC role. I can’t figure it out exactly who started it, but several times I asked to stop the fight, once again using loudspeaker. It did not stop, and someone began to beat someone with a machete, someone beated me with fist, but later machete was on the floor. I saw a marine who started to cock a machine gun, he intended to shoot actually. I hitted him a little bit using .45 from so that lest he die. That marine took off my clothes and stole the equip. There was a shit on the shuttle. Weakly remember, I hit this Marine in the face. I went into the cockpit to launch the shuttle, but the door opened and this marine released half the machine-gun drum into my face. The shooter was shot by other marines, I adminhelp'd, quote: "I was killed" and they revived me me, although I didn't ask for it. Body of the marine who actually killed me and took off my clothes and intended to shoot someone, lay near the Alamo cockpit airlock. I undressed him in revenge for the onboard bullshittery and threw him not far from the base in order to instill morality in him. I asked Jroinc1 to reheal him, but only word that he told me was something like "problem solved".
Why you think you should be unbanned: The problem was solved yesterday and getting a ban only today was very strange considering that Terranaut didn't try to find out what was the matter on my side before giving a ban based on what Jroinc1 told him.
References of good conduct: None



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terranaut
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Re: [BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

Postby terranaut » Tue May 05, 2020 2:49 pm #560667

Hi, thanks for taking the time to appeal properly. There's several things to this:

I don't believe that someone who did something banworthy should get away with it just because it wasn't noticed or couldn't be handled properly due to time constraints. According to what Jro and AIIA said it was a pretty hectic round with lots of tickets and they couldn't go into it as much as they wanted to, and why neither minded that I decided on something harsher than what they did.

There's also a 4 week ban in place on command roles and other roles that have some degree of soft power/authority like PO, RO and the like, since you were abusing your authority as FC to do all of this. I won't address this going on, as I intend to keep the jobban in place fully.

Going through the logs after the fact, I was searching for FFATTACK, which lists friendly fire, to help me get to the important bits quickly. What I didn't know at the time is that it only logs shot projectiles, not punches and such, which is why I initially assumed you pulling the gun and starting firing was without any real provocation. It's for this mistake that I'll reduce the ban time from 7 to 5 days.


The 5 days will stay for the following reasons:

Deciding to end a fistfight by pulling a gun and firing into the crowd is always unacceptable. Always ahelp to report a rulebreak, don't break the rules yourself.

Some things you said in the ticket:
[2020-05-03 23:38:07.526] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #5: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer): reheal this bum please - heard by 2 non-AFK staff.

[2020-05-03 23:41:06.823] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer)->AIIA/(Nar Nar): no, when he shot me in the head and I was dead, someone else killed him. reheal him, let him feel the taste of irony

[2020-05-03 23:51:27.680] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer)->AIIA/(Nar Nar): still didnâ€:tm:t understand whether he was rehealed, since the idea was that he woke up in the grass without clothes and didnâ€:tm:t know where to go, he successfully undressed me and took some equipment before that. also he had a knife fight in the Alamo and almost tried to shoot the next Marine, then firing me a half drum in head when I was sitting in the cockpit.

Emphasis mine. The things you said, coupled with the fact that you went well beyond out of your way to drag the naked body across basically the entire map - click here - paint the image that this wasn't just an overblown act of self-defense but rather you taking the opportunity to act in revenge and essentially grief somebody who tried to strip your uniform (the guy who started the fistfights was somebody else entirely, by the way, and I will be dealing with them, too), which is absolutely not okay.


I'll edit the note and the ban the next time a test is up and close the thread in about 24 hours if you have no further questions.
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DNSL
 
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Re: [BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

Postby DNSL » Tue May 05, 2020 3:39 pm #560669

terranaut wrote:Hi, thanks for taking the time to appeal properly. There's several things to this:

I don't believe that someone who did something banworthy should get away with it just because it wasn't noticed or couldn't be handled properly due to time constraints. According to what Jro and AIIA said it was a pretty hectic round with lots of tickets and they couldn't go into it as much as they wanted to, and why neither minded that I decided on something harsher than what they did.

There's also a 4 week ban in place on command roles and other roles that have some degree of soft power/authority like PO, RO and the like, since you were abusing your authority as FC to do all of this. I won't address this going on, as I intend to keep the jobban in place fully.

Going through the logs after the fact, I was searching for FFATTACK, which lists friendly fire, to help me get to the important bits quickly. What I didn't know at the time is that it only logs shot projectiles, not punches and such, which is why I initially assumed you pulling the gun and starting firing was without any real provocation. It's for this mistake that I'll reduce the ban time from 7 to 5 days.


The 5 days will stay for the following reasons:

Deciding to end a fistfight by pulling a gun and firing into the crowd is always unacceptable. Always ahelp to report a rulebreak, don't break the rules yourself.

Some things you said in the ticket:
[2020-05-03 23:38:07.526] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #5: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer): reheal this bum please - heard by 2 non-AFK staff.

[2020-05-03 23:41:06.823] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer)->AIIA/(Nar Nar): no, when he shot me in the head and I was dead, someone else killed him. reheal him, let him feel the taste of irony

[2020-05-03 23:51:27.680] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer)->AIIA/(Nar Nar): still didnâ€:tm:t understand whether he was rehealed, since the idea was that he woke up in the grass without clothes and didnâ€:tm:t know where to go, he successfully undressed me and took some equipment before that. also he had a knife fight in the Alamo and almost tried to shoot the next Marine, then firing me a half drum in head when I was sitting in the cockpit.

Emphasis mine. The things you said, coupled with the fact that you went well beyond out of your way to drag the naked body across basically the entire map - click here - paint the image that this wasn't just an overblown act of self-defense but rather you taking the opportunity to act in revenge and essentially grief somebody who tried to strip your uniform (the guy who started the fistfights was somebody else entirely, by the way, and I will be dealing with them, too), which is absolutely not okay.


I'll edit the note and the ban the next time a test is up and close the thread in about 24 hours if you have no further questions.


Bans are still very undeservedly long, because you underestimate or deliberately ignore the fact that my order to stop the fight (FC order) was ignored four times. Moreover, a marine that hit me in the face, believing that he would go unpunished when I simply asked to stop the chaos on the shuttle. And someone undressed me. I don't think there is a some role abusing until I pull stunned marine to the south of the map. I admit that this was enough, but I would look stupid if I hadn’t done anything to the distubers.

Most problems of this type could be solved in IC, using IC methods, starting with the battle and ending with soldier undressing, including using “public punishment”. The method that I came to can be considered very controversial, but the marine, whom I took to the south of the map, just jumped into the cockpit and shot half a machine gun drum in my face, which in my opinion is a blatant case of insubordination and should be punished. I want to remind you that the shooting that I started on the shuttle was necessary solely to prevent the shooting of the marine who raised the machine gun and pointed it on a fellow marine, intending to kill someone for misconduct. Bushido, which I observe and respect, does not allow me to shoot and attack someone unarmed even in-game.

Against the background of ahelp logs, something may contradict what I wrote above, but there is a big difference between what you might think at first glance and what I had in mind. It was much easier for me to express my thoughts very quickly with simple and understandable words than to have a long conversation with the administrator in real time, when in parallel with this I had to prepare for the xenomorph waves. Thank you for understanding.

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terranaut
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Re: [BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

Postby terranaut » Tue May 05, 2020 4:21 pm #560673

The very first instance of recorded friendly fire was at 23:25:59 server time and the shooter/victim of that aren't related to your fight, so I'll be ignoring them.
The next instances of recorded friendly fire began about 5 minutes later and were, in order:
Code: Select all
[2020-05-03 23:31:12.904] FFATTACK: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer) shot Taidabes/(Ted Kaczynski) with the heavy rifle bullet in Dropship Alamo (112, 171, 3).
[2020-05-03 23:31:13.064] FFATTACK: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer) shot Taidabes/(Ted Kaczynski) with the heavy rifle bullet in Dropship Alamo (112, 171, 3).
[2020-05-03 23:31:17.913] FFATTACK: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer) shot Falderal/(Ariel Miladiano) with the heavy rifle bullet in Dropship Alamo (111, 171, 3).


These two were fighting each other for reasons I can't really discern from existing game logs (Falderal was defending themself against aggression from Taidabes). The person who tried to strip you and who you ended up killing and hiding is someone else entirely again.
It's not verifiable at all if a machine gun was pointed at you and it's for that reason we tell everyone time and time again to ahelp rulebreaking behavior instead of being vigilantes. What is verifiable is the claim that half a drum of machine gun ammo was emptied into you; that is provably false.

What is false, also, is your claim that you adhere to Bushido; Bushido is codified by 8 virtues, 4 or 5 of which you broke:
You broke the virtue of Self-Control by deciding to take things into your own hands instead of letting us handle it.
You broke the virtue of Duty and Loyalty by breaking the trust of all your underlings, firing into a crowd and endangering everybody.
You broke the virtue of Respect by being overtly cruel in your handling of the dead body.
You broke the virtue of Compassion by going out of your way to lash out against somebody who was annoying you; you are supposed to go out of your way to find opportunities for good deeds, not bad ones.
You possibly broke the virtue of Honesty, misinforming on the alleged attack on you. Whether this is a lie or a simple mistake only you know.

When your ban expires after the remaining 4 days, I won't expect you to follow Bushido, but please do follow the server rules when you come back.
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Re: [BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

Postby DNSL » Tue May 05, 2020 5:22 pm #560677

terranaut wrote:The very first instance of recorded friendly fire was at 23:25:59 server time and the shooter/victim of that aren't related to your fight, so I'll be ignoring them.
The next instances of recorded friendly fire began about 5 minutes later and were, in order:
Code: Select all
[2020-05-03 23:31:12.904] FFATTACK: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer) shot Taidabes/(Ted Kaczynski) with the heavy rifle bullet in Dropship Alamo (112, 171, 3).
[2020-05-03 23:31:13.064] FFATTACK: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer) shot Taidabes/(Ted Kaczynski) with the heavy rifle bullet in Dropship Alamo (112, 171, 3).
[2020-05-03 23:31:17.913] FFATTACK: Electricall/(Rudolf Von Speer) shot Falderal/(Ariel Miladiano) with the heavy rifle bullet in Dropship Alamo (111, 171, 3).


These two were fighting each other for reasons I can't really discern from existing game logs (Falderal was defending themself against aggression from Taidabes). The person who tried to strip you and who you ended up killing and hiding is someone else entirely again.
It's not verifiable at all if a machine gun was pointed at you and it's for that reason we tell everyone time and time again to ahelp rulebreaking behavior instead of being vigilantes. What is verifiable is the claim that half a drum of machine gun ammo was emptied into you; that is provably false.

What is false, also, is your claim that you adhere to Bushido; Bushido is codified by 8 virtues, 4 or 5 of which you broke:
You broke the virtue of Self-Control by deciding to take things into your own hands instead of letting us handle it.
You broke the virtue of Duty and Loyalty by breaking the trust of all your underlings, firing into a crowd and endangering everybody.
You broke the virtue of Respect by being overtly cruel in your handling of the dead body.
You broke the virtue of Compassion by going out of your way to lash out against somebody who was annoying you; you are supposed to go out of your way to find opportunities for good deeds, not bad ones.
You possibly broke the virtue of Honesty, misinforming on the alleged attack on you. Whether this is a lie or a simple mistake only you know.

When your ban expires after the remaining 4 days, I won't expect you to follow Bushido, but please do follow the server rules when you come back.


These accusations are fully drawn to ritual suicide. Most of them are falsely justified, starting with the first: the tasks of my role include the prevention of disputes and fights between allied marines. My orders were deprived of authority for some reason, long before I started shooting, I could not be heard while I was screaming at the loudspeaker.

I think it would be a good if you should only intervene and make decisions when someone was killed without any particular reason, since almost all of this could be solved in IC. Point two: I tried to prevent firing onboard until the marine, who raised the machine gun, intended to kill someone. I had to shoot in order to prevent large and much more painful consequences, because only that is worked. I didn’t kill anyone, and most of the wounds I inflicted to de-escalate the situation didn’t threaten someone’s death, I didn’t even break anyone’s bones.

Point three, four and five: I didn't kill the Marine, whom I dragged south of the base. I definitely saw that it was the same Marine who took off my clothes and shot me by going into the cockpit, although I practically did nothing to him. He was not killed or injured, but lay unconciousness.

I doubt the objectivity and credibility of your judgments, because you are not able to accurately determine the violation, including due to technical problems, suffer from distrust of the arguments which I also gave. You joined the consideration of the situation after ~ 24 hours, basing a significant part of your judgments on unsupported facts, using blind viewing of logs, which for some reason can not give all the hits, and experience conversations with AIIA and Jroinc1, although you have not seen the situation with your own eyes. In the best condition, such cases will be well considered almost immediately after the incident. This is as unethical as possible, including that the Jroinc1 said that the situation is resolved, and you give me a ban after a day.

I don't insist on changing the time of bans, you have the right to leave it as it is, for my part I simply fundamentally disagree with it for the reasons described above.

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Re: [BAN] [Terranaut] Electricall

Postby terranaut » Tue May 05, 2020 5:36 pm #560679

My accusations are based on log files and for the most part objectively provable due to that while you keep misrepresenting facts. I'm not sure why you're saying you did not kill somebody, you did and then moved the body away.
Don't shoot someone for pointing a gun at you, do nothing and if he shoots you ahelp it and he'll be banned and you'll get healed, it's not difficult. The fact that this ban was placed after the fact has little bearing on its validity, there's no statute of limitations here, we still have ban requests open. I've spoken at length with Jro and AIIA who observed what happened and whom, frankly, I'm much more inclined to believe than you, especially since what they're saying lines up with the logs while you contradict them.
Since we're moving in circles here and you're just regurgitating the same stuff I'll close the thread; with the evidence that's on the table I'm not going to change my opinion.

If you wish to take the appeal further the next step is asking a headmin for their opinion.
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