/tg/Station 13

by **MrStonedOne** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:48 am #3453

[mso edit: the following post was made by thunder but the author was changed to me during the sos -> mso host transition]

Since Brotemis seems to lack a thread, I'll make one until Nik Nak does it proper like.

Brotemis is heavy on the forums, where he mindlessly drones support for any admin actions in question, even when those actions were obviously poorly chosen, and seems to use ad hom a lot to make up for poor arguments.

However, for a Game Admin he seems to never play, and when he is on the server adminwho list, which is rare, he is nearly always afk.

I have never had a prayer answered by him, and I have never seen him do any kind of event.

He is apparently so forgettable that Nik Nak didn't even think to make him his own thread.

Dead weight/10

by **Brotemis** » Sat May 03, 2014 4:15 pm #3492

Good to see you still have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't I ever see YOU on?

Keep being a shithead, A+ for effort by saying "lacks actual arguments, resorts to ad hom" then ad homs yourself.

by **Lovecraft** » Sat May 03, 2014 4:26 pm #3496

You know, most of the OP posts for these threads remain minimal and unbiased for a reason. The fact that you couldn't understand that Tunder doesn't surprise me.
I actually like the way Brotemis acts. I do see him on, and I'm fairly certain he's helped me out in a round or two. Always like to see him in the forums as well.
B+ Brotemis, keep it up.

by **danno** » Sat May 03, 2014 4:26 pm #3497

good lord.
rational response to criticism/10
I didn't realise tunderchief had some kind of obligation to play
since when was he an admin

by **Jacquerel** » Sat May 03, 2014 4:45 pm #3499

You do have an obligation to have played if you are judging someone else's time played because that's the only way to be able to judge it.

by **paprika** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:29 pm #3506

Or you can ask virtually any admin with access to server logs for how often brotemis logs in, which is an absolutely pathetic amount considering how much he 'moderated' erro's forum.

by **Skorvold** » Sat May 03, 2014 10:27 pm #3515

Good admin, pretty sure he was trial back when I first showed up, always new him as the guy who grabbed all the ban appeals and resolved them rather quickly which is an accomplishment considering how much of a mess the logs can be.

by **NikNakFlak** » Sat May 03, 2014 10:33 pm #3519

He is apparently so forgettable that Nik Nak didn't even think to make him his own thread.

There are quite a few people with banning abilities on the admin list who do not have a thread for a specific purpose.
- In-active people who still have a rank.
- People without forum accounts. Brotemis was not on the in-game admin forum list and still isn't. I'm un-aware of the current situation of what he plans to do but he looks like he is still involved so I'll make a formatted thread.

by **cultist-chan** » Sun May 04, 2014 12:55 am #3536

Brotemis is very abrasive and needs to work on his people skills. I don't like his his logic skills when applying bans and gives off a "admins vs players mentality". Otherwise I'm sure he does his job alright. He tries to be good. I wish I could apply more constructive criticism.... but I can't.

by **Brotemis** » Sun May 04, 2014 5:16 am #3552

The irony of Tunderchief's statements, dannos (inevitable) shitposting, paprka's multiple forum bans for outright shitposting and flame wars all aside, I do actually try to be considerate of players.

I have very little tolerance for griffins, and if you're here to complain simply because you were banned, you're not only making yourself look like you have a stick up your ass, you're going through the wrong channels to make that complaint. If you have been banned and have a problem with it, make a ban appeal. Barring that an admin complaint. You as an outside observer have no "right" to shitpost in FNR, stenography, or anywhere else in the board.

The bottom line of bans is that no admin wants to be seen as the " Big Bad Ban Man;" which is a silly thought in itself. Make me out to be whatever you feel like whether it be a shitmin or a beacon of light in a shitstorm, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not going for feared or liked, but many people respect my perspective on administrating and while I may be harsh, there hasn't been a person undeserving of the harsher treatment.

In short. Give it a rest, people. You're getting nowhere making blanket statements regarding how I admin.

by **cultist-chan** » Sun May 04, 2014 5:33 am #3556

Brotemis wrote:The irony of Tunderchief's statements, dannos (inevitable) shitposting, paprka's multiple forum bans for outright shitposting and flame wars all aside, I do actually try to be considerate of players.

I have very little tolerance for griffins, and if you're here to complain simply because you were banned, you're not only making yourself look like you have a stick up your ass, you're going through the wrong channels to make that complaint. If you have been banned and have a problem with it, make a ban appeal. Barring that an admin complaint. You as an outside observer have no "right" to shitpost in FNR, stenography, or anywhere else in the board.

The bottom line of bans is that no admin wants to be seen as the " Big Bad Ban Man;" which is a silly thought in itself. Make me out to be whatever you feel like whether it be a shitmin or a beacon of light in a shitstorm, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not going for feared or liked, but many people respect my perspective on administrating and while I may be harsh, there hasn't been a person undeserving of the harsher treatment.

In short. Give it a rest, people. You're getting nowhere making blanket statements regarding how I admin.

Look we get it bromethis. People are being shit. In fact living in this world sometimes is wading through a river of it.

And I bet you feel the same as me that this is a un-paid, un-yielding soul breaking job. But if it is a job its a CSR job. In my opinion ya gotta tone it down a little, grow a bit of a thicker skin, and try to act friendlier (I know I'm a hypocrite in saying that to you but I'm trying to make a constructive opinion here now that I've thought more about it. If you want we can talk about myself there too.

by **tunderchief** » Sun May 04, 2014 12:44 pm #3601

Brotemis wrote:The irony of Tunderchief's statements, dannos (inevitable) shitposting, paprka's multiple forum bans for outright shitposting and flame wars all aside, I do actually try to be considerate of players.

I have very little tolerance for griffins, and if you're here to complain simply because you were banned, you're not only making yourself look like you have a stick up your ass, you're going through the wrong channels to make that complaint. If you have been banned and have a problem with it, make a ban appeal. Barring that an admin complaint. You as an outside observer have no "right" to shitpost in FNR, stenography, or anywhere else in the board.

The bottom line of bans is that no admin wants to be seen as the " Big Bad Ban Man;" which is a silly thought in itself. Make me out to be whatever you feel like whether it be a shitmin or a beacon of light in a shitstorm, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not going for feared or liked, but many people respect my perspective on administrating and while I may be harsh, there hasn't been a person undeserving of the harsher treatment.

In short. Give it a rest, people. You're getting nowhere making blanket statements regarding how I admin.

Funny, since it seems that most of us are making fairly concise statements regarding how you don't admin

by **Lovecraft** » Sun May 04, 2014 5:35 pm #3646

Tunder, I just saw on yesterday. Maybe it's a conflicting playtime issue between you two?

by **tunderchief** » Sun May 04, 2014 6:08 pm #3653

Lovecraft wrote:Tunder, I just saw on yesterday. Maybe it's a conflicting playtime issue between you two?

I saw him on, too. And this made me realize that I have almost never seen him on.

by **MrStonedOne** » Thu May 15, 2014 8:30 pm #6147

It would be nice if they themselves could follow rule 1.

Dude is abrasive, and I see him coming off as a dick on the forums, (both here and the old ones) and in the few ahelps i've seen from him to other players. He gets away with it because every time that he enters full dick mode, the person or people he is talking to respond back just as abrasively that it covers up bro's own contribution to the escalation of the conversation.

You need to only look at his conduct in his own feedback thread:

Brotemis wrote:Good to see you still have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't I ever see YOU on?

Keep being a shithead, A+ for effort by saying "lacks actual arguments, resorts to ad hom" then ad homs yourself.

There also seems to be an issue where once he gets it in his mind that a player is a shit, that opinion will color his judgement of the player to the point that seeming innocent actions will seem like shitty actions. This is more based on conduct in the old forum's fnr boards, so i can't provide any examples until someone can link me to a archive.

Basically, out of all of the admins, I fear getting a boink from bro the most, because his attitude makes me lose confidence in the fact that if I'm not being a dick, I shouldn't have to worry about getting in trouble. All it would take is him getting getting it in his head that im a shit, or him being a dick on a day where I don't have the patience to keep the conversion from escalating.

by **Brotemis** » Thu May 15, 2014 8:48 pm #6152

That would be because you really do have nothing to fear. Take this complaint for example
http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=425

We'll even take a few choice quotes.

PM to-Admins: They arrested me twice for no reason, one of them just harmbatonned me, and they have flashers set up in the brig for no reason.

He was arrested for trespassing in RnD and refused to leave after the RD told him to get out. Apparently second time he went back to try and get "revenge" on the RD for being arrested.

PM to-Admins: The warden also arrested me for the sole purpose of stealing my gloves and tools, which he is now wearing.

Another bald-faced lie. The "warden" was a traitor lawyer who transfered to sec as a [Brig Guard]. The actual warden who was handling his jail time was wearing the standard black gloves.

Admin PM from-Brotemis: I dont see them using the gloves or tools
PM to-Admins: Are you fucking blind, the warden has insulated gloves and a toolbelt on that he stole from me.

Another example of not knowing whats really going on. Brig guard. Not Warden.

Admin PM from-Brotemis: Alright then. Valid

Even after all that, I humored him and took a look at who the actual person who has the gloves (Not the warden) and they're an antagonist. I'm not going to tell him this because he already has a valid boner going.

And then the bitchfit starts

PM to-Admins: I'm going to file an admin complaint because you're not taking it seriously.
PM to-Admins: I demand a more competent admin handle my case.
Admin PM from-Brotemis: Maybe you can tell me why you were arrested just now
PM to-Admins: For trying to get revenge on the RD, who is now valid because of his false arrest.
Admin PM from-Brotemis: No they arent. Thats not your call
PM to-Admins: You're literally taking the Richard Nixon view of shitcurity, and it needs to stop.
PM to-Admins: So it's perfectly okay for them to false arrest people just to steal shit?
Admin PM from-Brotemis: And you need to stop whining. Ill leave it at that

Add on top of that, they blame the warden for an "IED" that was actually multiple bombs that went off outside the brig.

PM to-Admins: Okay, tell me you did not just see the warden detonate a fucking IED on me.
Admin PM from-Brotemis: I didnt. Quit bitching

At any point did I act like a dick? When you're told something is valid. Its valid

by **Stickymayhem** » Thu May 15, 2014 9:38 pm #6166

Brotemis wrote:Snip

To be fair that guy is almost certainly literally retarded and isn't a fair example for the average complaint against you.

He was so overwhelmingly shit that it overbears anything else that could have been present in the example.

I'm criticising the post. In terms of your adminning, I'm happy with it and see you often enough on Sibyl, especially recently. You run riskier events that frequently dole out a shitton more fun than most button pressing.

I like it when people are nice, but I don't think it's an absolute necessity, particularly when they back it up with actual experience. You're not nice, but you're a good admin so I'm happy with that.

by **paprika** » Sat May 17, 2014 10:40 pm #6542

Stickymayhem wrote:You're not nice, but you're a good admin

What?

by **Psyentific** » Sat May 17, 2014 11:13 pm #6556

Stickymayhem wrote:You're not nice, but you're a good admin

+1 this. Brotemis is a dick, but he's good at what he does. We can't get the torches and pitchforks just because he's a dick.

by **danno** » Sat May 17, 2014 11:19 pm #6561

It's a video game
we can totally get mad at someone if they're being a dick and it's not necessary
which it usually is not.

edit: paprika explains much better
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

by **paprika** » Sat May 17, 2014 11:59 pm #6572

Being nice is a pretty large part of being a good admin when your server has a rule 0. Brotemis is probably the worst offender of setting himself up to be this badass no tolerance admin but falling so goddamn short and just being an angry mess like every other admin who does this. Like seriously, other admins can do what you do, and they do it while not being assholes, so why do we have admins like you again?

Especially flakey ones who spend months simply forum moderating and then 'resign' but come back anyway which should really not be allowed.

I have yet to see an admin resign and actually mean it.

by **Deuryn** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:52 am #6649

When was the last time you saw Creed?

by **alien219** » Sun May 18, 2014 10:26 am #6663

just replace a janitor with an admin (and all the relevant bits too, i'm too lazy!)
Basically, you guys get the service you deserve + even more, since sos, mrstonedone, adminbus, coderbus and all the people involved are still supporting/are part of this whole thing. That should be the message.

by **Apsis** » Sun May 18, 2014 1:28 pm #6677

I don't mind Brotemis when he's being a dick, since I realized there's no double standard and players can act like dicks too. So it really doesn't matter to me.

by **Septavius** » Sun May 18, 2014 1:33 pm #6679

second bestmin, also plays doto so thats cool too

by **paprika** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:37 pm #6751

Deuryn wrote:When was the last time you saw Creed?

Rest in peace.

alien219 wrote:Basically, you guys get the service you deserve + even more, since sos, mrstonedone, adminbus, coderbus and all the people involved are still supporting/are part of this whole thing. That should be the message.

I find it hilarious volunteers demand respect in any form when it should come naturally to them if they didn't bitch and moan about their job being hard or people disliking them like Brotemis does. There's plenty of admins who do their job and aren't disliked all the time and the reason for this is that they aren't condescending like Brotemis is, virtually all the time to people who criticize how he administrates or when he does something wrong. There's admins that don't do this, who also volunteer, and I'm sure there's more of them out there perfectly happy to join the adminbus. Player scorn sucks, but there's a pretty easy way to repair it, by not being a shit admin! And a LARGE part of being a good admin, in my opinion, is attitude. Skorvold is a great example of it now.

Saying "it's free so it's good" is so fucking dumb. There's always room to improve and when admins adopt this policy on themselves as well as helping other admins improve things will be better for everyone.

by **Brotemis** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:34 am #6903

I'll agree with your points. I don't make a big deal out of people who dislike me just the same as I don't make a big deal out of people who like me try to justify how I act or things I do. There's also people who say I'm abrasive, but how many of those people have actually had an adminhelp handled by me or have been PM'd by me? Sure, I'll take on tough situations people don't want to deal with because of drama or emotions brought with it like CDB and their sec ban or napkin, because I don't bring emotion in and I don't bring emotion out.

And to the general "Your events are shitty/they suck."comment. Ok. What do YOU want to see? If I have the time and I can make it happen, I'll try to. As of late, I've been trying to find new interesting ways for events like the Hive Overlord or the Spider Mech (courtesy of Mechoid for sprites, these things are fantastic. ) because it brings in things you've never seen before because that's what I think ss13 is about.

I've always been of the policy there is room to improve. I don't strive to be perfect, but I do my best. Plain and simple.

Once your ban expires, come see me on Sybil and we'll drum up some fun.

by **paprika** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:18 am #6912

I personally don't really factor in events to an admin's competency as that's really the only payoff admins get for doing their shit job and I'm kind of over criticizing admins for making events that may fuck up some people's rounds, because odds are it's only one round so whatever. Admins that shit on the whole round like literally every time they run events are kind of shit though.

by **srifenbyxp** » Sat May 31, 2014 7:27 am #10075

I don’t see Brotemis on as much as I have before in the past but even though he can be a dick it’s normally towards people who actually deserves it. I’ve been dunked by brotemis twice awhile back mainly due to fake “antag chatter” :g I need to kill x. Granted I got an hour ban each time but rounds normally last roughly on average 45-1 hour anyways but this showed that he has a reasonable “banning length” for people who dun goof’d.
If Brotemis handles events every now and again and changes his no mercy replies I’d say he’d be pretty baller, but at the moment he's doing his Admin'g well as it should be. A shame I don’t see him playing more often to give a better analysis but people got jobs and shit, also people should keep in mind that admins don’t have to grant prayers every now and again. Prayers and Events are optional not necessary and it’s like I always say: "wants are nice aren’t they?"

by **Pandarsenic** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:06 am #10144

He already knows how I feel, I assume, about him muting Iteq from say and emote for praying his dislike of an event.

by **Ikarrus** » Sat May 31, 2014 1:54 pm #10210

I wish you'd let the other admins know you're going to run an event. And when you do, you tend to ignore everyhing we say to you. A little bit more communication would be appreciated.

by **danno** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:25 pm #10222

Pandarsenic wrote:He already knows how I feel, I assume, about him muting Iteq from say and emote for praying his dislike of an event.

I am really, really disappointed that a complaint thread was never made for this. It was absurd behaviour.

by **Brotemis** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:58 pm #10229

An event that had not even started. In came rushing the ahelp "go back to sybilshit. " I'm disappointed a complaint thread wasn't made either. On that note.

I'm not going to tolerate any sort of server war or "x is the better server. Y is absolute shit."

To srifen, I work as a supervisor and generally work 45+ hours a week. Usually working until 12 am.

by **danno** » Sat May 31, 2014 3:01 pm #10231

you muted a player from literally all methods of communication (IC included) for not liking admin events, iirc
I mean
did you really think that was an appropriate response
seriously

by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 4:05 pm #10242

Hey brotemis there's plenty of admins who regular both sybil AND arty and aren't universally hated maybe you should examine your own behavior before bitching that it's da playerz fault!!!

by **Brotemis** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:24 pm #10269

Who said it's the players fault? Strawman arguments ahoy. Also, universally hated? Yeah, get out, this isn't feedback. I'm out

by **danno** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:39 pm #10273

How to win at feedback thread:
1. look at feedback
2. ignore legit feedback/questions
3. find comment that can be construed as illegitimate
4. declare all feedback illegitimate, bounce

just
please
be nicer
that's all you have to do
no more "i am the anti-hero the server deserves, my rudeness is just tough love/taking no shit"
it's a video game
other admins can do their jobs and be nice about it
just be like that

also that muting from ic/emote/ooc/ahelp/pray/everything shit was super retarded and that has to be talked about
that is not a rational reaction to someone praying and saying they dislike events
you shat all over pandar when he unmuted them too, didn't you? I could be wrong about that, but if so, that was..... just unbelievably bad.

Spoiler:

by **Brotemis** » Sat May 31, 2014 6:42 pm #10289

I'll make it plain and simple for you. Don't be a dick

Its not that hard. If you're being scolded, there is a reason. If you want to make a complaint on how I handle it. Do so. But don't come in posting because you're still upset that I said I was done adminning and then decided to come back. We keep going round and round in circles about the "HES 2 MEAN 2 ME, PLS DEADMIN :*(" and the retort "Well, quit being an idiot." Its real simple. I don't go out of my way to antagonize people. You do.

The difference between me and you is that you classify any type of post as "Legitimate feedback" whereas I recognize it for what it is. Why don't you become a better coder/spriter and actually implement something worth seeing in game? And be nice at it? Its these types of arguments that make your (Read, danno) worthless. Because you contribute no actual feedback other than "He is mean to players but I dont have any evidence of this in game because I don't have any sort interaction with him beyond the forums where he banned after I told him to get pooped on after he told me to stop shitposting."

by **danno** » Sat May 31, 2014 6:47 pm #10291

I think I'm missing the link of all of that to this
Kinda sounds like a load of doo doo
None of this is about you "quitting" or banning me

Brotemis wrote: Strawman arguments ahoy.

by **Munchlax** » Sat May 31, 2014 7:53 pm #10303

You both take this way too serious.

by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:36 pm #10310

Brotemis wrote:I'll make it plain and simple for you. Don't be a dick

Its not that hard. If you're being scolded, there is a reason. If you want to make a complaint on how I handle it. Do so. But don't come in posting because you're still upset that I said I was done adminning and then decided to come back. We keep going round and round in circles about the "HES 2 MEAN 2 ME, PLS DEADMIN :*(" and the retort "Well, quit being an idiot." Its real simple. I don't go out of my way to antagonize people. You do.

The difference between me and you is that you classify any type of post as "Legitimate feedback" whereas I recognize it for what it is. Why don't you become a better coder/spriter and actually implement something worth seeing in game? And be nice at it? Its these types of arguments that make your (Read, danno) worthless. Because you contribute no actual feedback other than "He is mean to players but I dont have any evidence of this in game because I don't have any sort interaction with him beyond the forums where he banned after I told him to get pooped on after he told me to stop shitposting."

uh, uh uh uh uh
hold. hold on. hoooooold.
hold on

Brotemis wrote:I'll make it plain and simple for you. Don't be a dick

Brotemis. Says "Don't be a dick". When the majority of his negative feedback is "Brotemis is a dick"
Brotemis, telling someone to not be a dick. BROTEMIS. TELLING SOMEONE TO NOT BE A DICK.

I can't post reaction images in FNR, can I?

by **paprika** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:58 am #10381

>don't be a dick
>but i can be a dick because it's my job!

by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:21 am #10434

Brotemis wrote:I'll make it plain and simple for you. Don't be a dick

Its not that hard. If you're being scolded, there is a reason. If you want to make a complaint on how I handle it. Do so. But don't come in posting because you're still upset that I said I was done adminning and then decided to come back. We keep going round and round in circles about the "HES 2 MEAN 2 ME, PLS DEADMIN :*(" and the retort "Well, quit being an idiot." Its real simple. I don't go out of my way to antagonize people. You do.

The difference between me and you is that you classify any type of post as "Legitimate feedback" whereas I recognize it for what it is. Why don't you become a better coder/spriter and actually implement something worth seeing in game? And be nice at it? Its these types of arguments that make your (Read, danno) worthless. Because you contribute no actual feedback other than "He is mean to players but I dont have any evidence of this in game because I don't have any sort interaction with him beyond the forums where he banned after I told him to get pooped on after he told me to stop shitposting."

Look

Dude

C'mon

http://pastebin.com/8V5ZTta6

by **Lovecraft** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:38 am #10437

This is a video game forum board, not Washington.
Brotemis, I like you. Good job. Keep it up.

by **Psyentific** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:36 am #10448

Pandarsenic wrote:Look
Dude
C'mon
http://pastebin.com/8V5ZTta6

"Don't be a dick" -Brotemis

by **Munchlax** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:33 am #10470

Brotemis/(Louis Swabey) : That being said, dont touch my stuff

Ok, your credibility just went into the trash.

by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:54 am #10473

Muting someone from all forms of in game, out of game and admin communication, for criticising you spawning in 50 Assault Mechs, is poor behaviour in my opinion.

Brotemis, my interactions with you in game have been limited. However (And I'm pretty sure this was you) my more memorable encounter was you spawning in about 50 Durands, using summon guns five times (making most of the station antagonists), getting pissy people were killing each other due to them having five guns per person and full antag status, then sending in 3 Maraurders to kill off whoever was still alive. Then you blame the players for their behaviour, including gibbing people, for having antag status and using it.

So yeah, drop the mech events. Keep them more smaller scale or something. Throwing dozens of combat mechs at the station loses its appeal fast.

by **Bluespace** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:50 pm #10481

brotemis is a cool guy but his events are shit and usually enjoyed by only a few people.

by **Jeb** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:32 pm #10498

Brotemis wrote:An event that had not even started. In came rushing the ahelp "go back to sybilshit. "

HELP: Iteq/(Luck): how about we leave our shit events to sibyl - heard by 3 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
Brotemis/(Louis Swabey) has muted iteq/(Luck) from IC (say and emote)
Brotemis/(Louis Swabey) has muted iteq/(Luck) from OOC
Brotemis/(Louis Swabey) has muted iteq/(Luck) from adminhelp, admin PM and ASAY
Brotemis/(Louis Swabey) has muted iteq/(Luck) from pray

Iteq wasn't telling you "go back to sybilshit", he said "take your shitty event and run it on another server" and you responded by muting him from all the things.

That being said, in my interactions with you (which have been limited, bless the gods) you come off as a complete asshole, you refuse to ever be wrong and make it well known that you'll fight to the death to be "right", your events have little to no creativity put into them and just involve spawning a bunch of things and calling it an event.

Stop trying to be "the admin that /tg/ deserves" and try to be "the admin that /tg/ respects". A bad mannered admin does things to a players respect for a community because you're the frontman for the entire thing. If a new player is met with a harsh, rude admin, they're not likely to return (which eventually kills the place off).

by **Psyentific** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:21 pm #10512

Wow, just don't be a dick you guys :^)
Can't you see that Brotemis is mean if you're a dick? :^)