[No longer admin]Brotemis

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:02 pm #13984

Bottom post of the previous page:

Jesus I know you said this to me and I don't want to be a hypocrite but stop being a dick

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:19 pm #14015

I can understand why I'm disliked by dannos, he's still upset that I resigned and came back. Or Psyentific because I don't like guncargo. Or terbs because he was banned from adminbus because he refused to take it to PM's or the forums as he should and instead kept rejoining after being told what he needs to do and kicked. Helios in general is a shitler and nobody likes being called out (Pot calling kettle black argument).

I get it. But if you want to be taken seriously, you're going to have to put some effort into your complaints or positive comments. "Bromin/10, A+ for adminning" is just as bad as "shitmin, does nothing but idles on the server afk. "

There is no holier than thou attitude, I'm just asking for people to cut the bullshit out.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:22 pm #14016

To terbs, I'm not bemoaning my situation. I'm pointing out that I lead a busy life and am still able to be very active. Where as some admins can't be bothered to show up every once in a while.

A few dedicated admins > more admins but inactive

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:42 pm #14019

Brotemis wrote:I can understand why I'm disliked by dannos, he's still upset that I resigned and came back.

Guess that means you can write me off, right?
I haven't even mentioned this in the thread once

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:55 am #14082

Well, if you want an actual complaint instead of just "Brotemis is shit", I can offer one but I would like confirmation first that it would be read and acted upon instead of either deleated because REMOVE SHITPOST! SHIT POST BAD! or responded all defensivly of "NO I AM NOT A BADMIN I AM A GOODMIN" and shit.

If I can get confirmation of that, yeah, I will tell you exactly what the problem with your style of admining is.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:01 am #14098

youre relating the most unrelated past grievances to people so you can ignore their feedback and act like they only hate you for something that happened a long time ago and is only a minor part of what makes you awful
brotemis you win
there is no point trying to get a message across to you, youre too far gone

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:18 am #14104

miggles wrote:youre relating the most unrelated past grievances to people so you can ignore their feedback and act like they only hate you for something that happened a long time ago and is only a minor part of what makes you awful
brotemis you win
there is no point trying to get a message across to you, youre too far gone

Which is why I am seriously asking if Brotemis will go "Okay yeah, the things that Helios127 just explained to me are very legitament problems and I can actually be a very good admin instead of one of the worst if I work on them, Thanks Helios!" or "NOPE SHITPOST REMOVE BAN GONE" or "NOOOOOO I AM NOT LIKE THAT! I AM THE BEST ADMIN ON THE SITE"

yeah strawmen, so what?

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:25 am #14112

Or you could just make the complaint. It doesn't do you any good to whine about it.

Just the same as Miggles can claim "unrelated past grievances" are unrelated, I can claim they are since they would be my only interactions with them.

To aurx, I don't know where you get your policy information but I know that VG runs tg policy mostly. I also know that the succumbing voiding adminhelps is probably one of the oldest unwritten rule because it usually fell under "Don't be a dick." Which it should probably be in writing now.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:56 am #14118

It's unwritten because it's a sweeping generalization that doesn't apply in a large number of situations. Very few people have succumb ready and waiting in their chat bar for someone to crit them in any situations of impending death they intend to adminhelp.

Their past grievances with you are not what they are complaining about now. What they are complaining about is your attitude.

You want a real complaint? Someone didn't like what you were doing, they said "Please do this on the other server," and you muted them. From everything except dead chat. Including IC and Emotes. Then complained that I had touched your things when I unmuted him. Really dude? Making someone unable to Say, Emote, Adminhelp, Pray, or speak in OOC because they don't like you being Mech HBL (if Hibbles will forgive the use of his name)? That seems like a good, just, and fair use of your powers?

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:14 am #14125

Okay. Right. Lets go.

Brotemis, You are the worst admin on the site. Hornygranny comes close, but you manage to edge him out by being more active. But you already know this! I suppose the real question is, how or why are you such a shitmin? Lets start with How.

Most of your judgement calls favor the prosecutor, not the defense. You havent made too many new bans that pop up on the new forums, so I dont want to pull up examples (but I will if you just discard this because NO EXAMPLES? NO PROOF OF SHITLARY!) but the few that you have made are very harsh. Maybe this is more of a complaint of the system, but when its something thats 'just unsure' on perma, why not ban someone for a few months instead of DING DONG PERMA?

The seccond thing has made rounds as the 'Brotemis defense' now. When you want someone gone, you will do everything with hell and damnation on your back to pull things right out of your clown hole to make sure they are gone. And when this happens, keep in mind you are ALWAYS RIGHT! and will never, ever back down much in the same manner CDB once did. I bet you want an example of this. Try usednapkin, although to be absolutly fair there were a few other admins (including headmins) on your side.

You have an extremely authoritative view on how things should be run. A stenography of sorts is included right on my sig, but before that on Erros forum you used to delete posts that had a very differing opinion against the admins SHITPOSTS! Yes! Gotta get rid of thoose shitty posts that had a very differing opinion against the admins SHITPOSTS. Now I admit, people putting up dumb image macros when they dont belong? Yeah, thoose are shitposts and should be removed, but ones that say "I disagree with the decision an admin made because X" are not.

Furthermore, I dont see you on too much, and never on Artyom (the server I play) although I suppose thats a blessing rather then a curse. You never do any of the !FUN! event stuff either, but thats more of a general admin complaint rather then against you. You get a pass!

ANOUTHER PASS! YOU CHANGED YOUR AVATAR FROM SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST INSULTING (Creepy Hank Hill, DOTA Dude drinking a mug of "Your Tears") TO SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY MAKES ME SMILE!

Now for the seccond part: WHY IS BROTEMIS SUCH A BAD ADMIN. I have a theory. You see, CDB did something very bad at the admin party. I dont know what, but he did something very bad. Now, CDB was only an admin so all the bad admin vibes could be kept to one admin that everyone hated. When SoS removed CDBs trialmin status and banned him from sec because of said bad thing, all the badmin vibes had to go to someone, and that someone was unfortunetly you.

You have two responses on how you can take this

HELIOS! YOU ARE WRONG! I AM THE BEST ADMIN ON THE SERVER!
Just resign take a one day vacation. Seriously.

You know what helios, you are right. I am the worst admin on the server. How can I not be so bad?
I am glad you can keep an open mind about this. Okay, well, first off you could be less harsh. Like, much less harsh. Innocent until proven guilty, yknow? But if they are guilty, yeah you can bring the hammer down. Like if a greyshirt goes up and murders someone straight up for no reason? BANNED! But if its one of thoose many questionable situations? Innocent until proven guilty. Now if you catch em lying, give em the chair! Go Old School Bropro on em! GIVE EM THE WOOD!

The other thing is to remove bias as much as humanely possible when it comes to bans. When someone appeals and is legit apoligetic, give em some time off if not unperma outright. You can go hardass if they do the same goddamn shit again, but people have a right to one or two fuckups I feel, and being nicer when it comes to people appealing will probobly go a long way, as otherwise I feel that people may just greif to put a badge of honor of "Lol, B& from TGstation!" on themselves.

Now I do hope you take the latter response to this. If you do, you could be one of the best admins on the site. Maybe even a fullmin! Hell, if you take them to heart, Id vote for you in the headmin elections, I mean I dont know about anyone else but I would! So keep true to yourself, as with great power comes great responsibility!

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:52 am #14134

I'm actually glad you took the time and effort to voice your opinion in a constructive manner.

To the usednapkin note, I heavily disliked the " too cool for rules" attitude, never taking any appeal seriously, general shitposting (I use that term broadly and vaguely) and when he came around to make an actual appeal, I supported an unbanning on the condition smoke wasn't unbanned ( or austin rosello for that matter), as is typical of situations like that. People seem to forget this.

To the prosecution note, I would agree that I seem harsh, but only by the standard of other admins/servers being essentially a foil to me. When someone makes an appeal, more often than not you'll get only half the story and a one sided one as well. I can understand posting things from your perspective but outright lieing, leaving out obvious things important to an appeal or even an adminhelp is something I don't allow.

The point of a permanent ban is more often than not to force someone to make an actual appeal. Its better that way tob deny it and have then make a conscious effort to do so rather than waiting it out. I'd rather not Beardbeard or Bee York return every 3 months. And all things considered, We can easily identify griefers or troublemakers from other servers, so if they start acting up here, things that would normally net a normal ban would earn them a perma.

As to stenography, I still think that place should never come back. Most admins (read: not sawrge) agree. It did more harm to the community than good.

I'm also mostly on Sybil, though I am on Artyom randomly.

If people want events, be specific in your request rather than "something that doesn't kill everyone but is fun for everyone." Ask and ye shall receive.

The your tears was a DOTA avatar which was and always will be a joke, not an insult to anyone. It's funny. As well Hellish Hank Hill

420goslingboy69 · Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:46 am

Brotemis wrote:
To the usednapkin note, I heavily disliked the " too cool for rules" attitude, never taking any appeal seriously, general shitposting (I use that term broadly and vaguely) and when he came around to make an actual appeal, I supported an unbanning on the condition smoke wasn't unbanned ( or austin rosello for that matter), as is typical of situations like that. People seem to forget this.

Except, two things.
One, that's hypocritical. You have a style which you take on this board which is the hardass, smart-ass, stern guy or whatever your gimmick is. How is that any different from my fucking lack-i-daisical responses?
Two, you had maybe only 20% of my history and the situation down, saying multiple things wrong when the ban was being handled, yet backing your decision on the false info.
Overall, Brotemis, your pesimistic, know-it-all attitude is fucking shitty. You sound like a fucking elitist all the time. All the fucking time. No one wants to talk with you about anything thats opinionated, because you'll just be fucking hostile. It's like dealing with JLP with Security. Your pride, tunnel vision view, and hostility just make it unbearable. You act like a cunt and people tell you all the time. You say you don't care. That alone just makes you look like an ass. Like seriously, fuck your attitude. It's fucking shit, drop it.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:08 am #14153

What Napkin means to say is I really hope you take what I said to heart. I really hope your response is not a brushoff, Im going to assume it isnt except for this

To the prosecution note, I would agree that I seem harsh, but only by the standard of other admins/servers being essentially a foil to me.

Now I am trying to not just go the route of "You are shit, leave the server 4ever" route but I need to inturrupt here. You dont seem harsh, you are harsh. So in the future, if you think you seem harsh, ask yourself if you really are.

V AS FOR STENOGRAPHY IF YOU WANT IT OH BOY SO DO I BUT FORUTNETLY WE CAN HAVE STEONOGRAPHY AND NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT BEING ADMINED! IMAGINE A WORLD MADE OF SHIT WHERE PEOPLE COULD TALK LIKE RETARFDS AND INSULT BADMINS! AND DO IT ANONYMOUSLY WITHOUT SHIT BEING DELEATED. ITS REAL NOW! V

VVVVVV

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:13 am #14308

tunderchief wrote:Since Brotemis seems to lack a thread, I'll make one until Nik Nak does it proper like.

Brotemis is heavy on the forums, where he mindlessly drones support for any admin actions in question, even when those actions were obviously poorly chosen, and seems to use ad hom a lot to make up for poor arguments.

However, for a Game Admin he seems to never play, and when he is on the server adminwho list, which is rare, he is nearly always afk.

I have never had a prayer answered by him, and I have never seen him do any kind of event.

He is apparently so forgettable that Nik Nak didn't even think to make him his own thread.

Dead weight/10

Considering that this is the start this thread got off to I don't see how any of you can point the finger at Brotemis for being defensive and aggressive in his responses to criticism in the following conversation.
Let's start a discussion thread about any of you that starts with someone calling you a huge piece of shit and see how civil you can be.
"Oh but he's so abrasive. I spent five pages calling him an asshole and he said mean things back to me see? Look how abrasive he is."

I'm not trying to jump in and defend Broty I'm just saying that this is a pretty fucking ridiculous concept. How's anybody supposed to come out of something like this without returning this bullshit in kind?

You talk about anybody like this in a thread like this and it's going to get fucking nuts.

Spacemanspark · Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:38 am

While Brotemis mind be a hard-ass on occasion, he usually does his job fairly well when he's really needed. I appreciate this.
Just make yourself appear more friendly, and I think everyone would be golden with ya.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:32 pm #14352

An0n3 wrote: Considering that this is the start this thread got off to I don't see how any of you can point the finger at Brotemis for being defensive and aggressive in his responses to criticism in the following conversation.
Let's start a discussion thread about any of you that starts with someone calling you a huge piece of shit and see how civil you can be.
"Oh but he's so abrasive. I spent five pages calling him an asshole and he said mean things back to me see? Look how abrasive he is."

I'm not trying to jump in and defend Broty I'm just saying that this is a pretty fucking ridiculous concept. How's anybody supposed to come out of something like this without returning this bullshit in kind?

You talk about anybody like this in a thread like this and it's going to get fucking nuts.

I don't think anyone will try and deny that tunder is a tard
But anyone else could have made the thread and it would have gone the same way. Brotemis was like this before tunder made that post, and will be like this forever after apparently
You can't just shit on all of the feedback because one jackass made a shitty post first.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:42 am #14423

danno wrote:
An0n3 wrote: Considering that this is the start this thread got off to I don't see how any of you can point the finger at Brotemis for being defensive and aggressive in his responses to criticism in the following conversation.
Let's start a discussion thread about any of you that starts with someone calling you a huge piece of shit and see how civil you can be.
"Oh but he's so abrasive. I spent five pages calling him an asshole and he said mean things back to me see? Look how abrasive he is."

I'm not trying to jump in and defend Broty I'm just saying that this is a pretty fucking ridiculous concept. How's anybody supposed to come out of something like this without returning this bullshit in kind?

You talk about anybody like this in a thread like this and it's going to get fucking nuts.
I don't think anyone will try and deny that tunder is a tard
But anyone else could have made the thread and it would have gone the same way. Brotemis was like this before tunder made that post, and will be like this forever after apparently
You can't just shit on all of the feedback because one jackass made a shitty post first.

Get pooped on, kid.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:46 am #14425

ho golly the callback
would have maybe been pretty good if it fitted the context or whatever

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:13 am #14435

So now that I actually said all the reasons why Brotemis is the worst admin, can I keep calling him that until/unless he improves?

I mean, unless he is fired or retired HAHAHA YEAH RIGHT AN ADMIN BEING RETIRED OH GOD THATS A GOOD ONE HELIOS. NO ADMIN EVER REALLY QUITS

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:48 am #14452

danno wrote: I don't think anyone will try and deny that tunder is a tard
But anyone else could have made the thread and it would have gone the same way. Brotemis was like this before tunder made that post, and will be like this forever after apparently
You can't just shit on all of the feedback because one jackass made a shitty post first.

I don't think we'll ever know that because every time anyone tries to raise a serious conversation about Brotemis as an admin it immediately turns into a bunch of people calling him names and him giving it back.

It's impossible to determine who is actually the source of this shit. Is he provoking it? Is he responding to it?

I wish I had a more up to date experience on the matter, but beyond that I wish I could somehow get everyone to calm down for a second, wipe the slate clean, and start over again.

My best guess is that a long time ago either he got on someone's nerves or someone got on his nerves and the anger has just surged out from that ever since.

It's ridiculous because a lot of you guys I see hating eachother are people I'm totally cool with, fucking hilarious goodtimes bros I 10/10 would play vidya with. So when I see you guys having it out like this I have to wonder how the hell it came to this and if maybe everyone could just start over again it may turn out better.

I mean, this has been going on for like...what over a year now?

Munchlax · Post by **Munchlax** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:52 am #14470

10/10 for how brotemis is handling this, I'm not even being sarcastic you guys take this shit way to serious.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:23 pm #14522

Brotemis and HG should be dual headmins.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:00 am #14732

a few things, first of which I'm going to acknowledge the best thing I can do is probably not post here and stop posting and playing and quit forever. But I'm not a smart man so here goes.

My experiences portray you as someone jaded as fuck, someone who made a complete 360 in personality from when you first became admin. I honestly think that, and would be quite sympathetic to you if, something is stressing you in real life.

My experiences with also point to you having ideas about game policy that are in conflict to mine, that I have no idea how you managed to come up with, and were found to be in conflict with other admins. We all make mistakes but the fact that you vigorously defended your opinion on two separate accounts and then showed no understanding of why you were wrong makes me doubt your judgement call on things.

You need to take a break. Not a temporary deadminning or anything else, just a break. Personally, when admins reach that point when they think of themselves as harsh and then refuse to listen to anyone else, those admins need to separate themselves from ss13 for a bit.

allura · Post by **allura** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:04 pm #14801

he does it for free

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:07 pm #14803

I'm kind of jealous of brotemis at this point

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:31 pm #15203

Brotemis wrote:Or terbs because he was banned from adminbus because he refused to take it to PM's or the forums as he should and instead kept rejoining after being told what he needs to do and kicked. .

This is a complete lie, I came back after being banned for months if not almost a year, and you banned me instantly from adminbus, you are so full of shit brotemis.

Lovecraft · Post by **Lovecraft** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:07 pm #15207

This thread is an ever constant reminder of just how much time, thought, emotion, and drive can really go behind telling a person "I don't like you, here's why:" while at the same time all contain information that is essentially null and void to all but a very specific group of people.
No one will remember this drama in 10 years, hopefully not even the people involved. No one will be referencing arguments made on an Internet forum board centered around an admin some people dislike.
Though people will keep making posts here.
Just please, for your own sake, take a big step back and examine what you're doing before stepping back into the fray. It really will humble you to notice what we're all doing here before continuing to write.
I love you all.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:30 pm #15208

Lovecraft wrote:This thread is an ever constant reminder of just how much time, thought, emotion, and drive can really go behind telling a person "I don't like you, here's why:" while at the same time all contain information that is essentially null and void to all but a very specific group of people.
No one will remember this drama in 10 years, hopefully not even the people involved. No one will be referencing arguments made on an Internet forum board centered around an admin some people dislike.
Though people will keep making posts here.
Just please, for your own sake, take a big step back and examine what you're doing before stepping back into the fray. It really will humble you to notice what we're all doing here before continuing to write.
I love you all.

At the end of the day it's video games. Whether or not you don't like one of the people who attempts to keep your spessmans fun, you will still enjoy it for the most part. We don't need this level of vitriol so I think it would be best if we made our points and move on.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:28 am #15220

I actually do not have a problem, personally, with you. I honestly kind of suspect (based on posts earlier in this thread like "I'm expected to take feedback from X, Y and Z?") that you will come up with some way to discount this feedback purely based on who's making the post. But on the off-chance you won't, hear me out.

Once again, with feeling: I don't have a problem with you. But I do think that you have a tendency to treat people who make adminhelps or FNR posts, and to a lesser degree policy arguments, as guilty until proven innocent, which somewhat defeats the entire purpose of having FNR. This thread is a perfect example: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=758. I wasn't in this round and I don't want to turn this into displaced steno, so I won't comment on the situation, but I feel like based on the information given your post is making a huge deal -- and implying that the OP is lying and trying to get away with... something? -- based on semantics. There's a difference between writing a post (that's obviously not proofread, I mean come on "wines") and screwing up a word or two and being a lying liar out to lie to people. (Besides, as far as I know perma and execution are functionally identical in terms of severity and in terms of taking people out of the round.) Alone your post might be a little plausibly deniable, but it fits a pattern that I and a lot of other people here find troubling. And yes, I'm not gonna lie, a lot of the posts in here come across the same way.

Which is weird, because I don't think this was always the case at all! Back when either you first got admin, or were up for headmin -- I honestly don't remember, it was at least a year ago -- you always came across as the dispassionate admin, the guy who would pull logs for everything to get the fullest possible information before jumping to conclusions. I don't see so much of that anymore. Honestly, it seems like you're burnt out. You mention working a full-time job plus adminning -- that is completely plausible as a thing that can burn people out. And I know you hold it up as a point of pride how active you are despite all this, but it isn't actually a sign of good character to devote more or less time to 2D spessmen. If you're burnt out, then take a break. I'm not saying this because "OMG YOU SUCK JUST QUIT NOW," I'm saying this because burnout sucks and it's bad enough to martyr through it in situations that matter more than spessmen do.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:02 am #15260

I see your point. The process that I go through is very to the point and based on facts and what actually happens/happened as opposed to hypothetical arguments and situations of "if I wanted to do X then I would Y instead" or the like. An example would be "If I really wanted to grief the brig, I would bomb it instead of just IEDing it."

To the ban request in question, The title plainly states that the HOS killed them, but after reading there was no direct statement that they killed them. Or any logs. Only that the HOS got them killed. Vines are not logged and do not leave attack logs so the best I can do is simply clarify what happened the best I can before I can do an actual investigation. Also, More often than not I'm posting from my phone at work, otherwise I would be looking into it on the server.

I hope that clears up my line of thinking. There is no guilty until proven innocence, but do your best to make a ban request readable, to the point, and preferably with logs/screenshots. Otherwise there is a lot more to look into because we lose a lot of context without it.

damiac · Post by **damiac** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:52 pm #15621

OK, since everyone's doing the open and honest thing, let me give it a whirl too:

My issues with you, Brotemis, are pretty much what bandit just said. It's that half the time, people seem to start out with you already having decided they're guilty, and everything they say after just gets twisted to prove the conclusion you already came to. When you do that, there's no going back for you, no matter what.

I honestly don't think you make a bigger percentage of bad calls than any other admin, which is to say, they're going to happen, and if you are more active, yes, you will make more bad calls. But, when you make a bad call, you stick to your guns, lashing out at anyone who questions you. Furthermore, once that happens, those people are then added to the shitlist who are pre-judged guilty.

You say people call you a dick because you were mean after someone called you a dick. But, that's not true. What actually happens, is in between your runs of general good adminness, you act like a dick. Then someone calls you out. Then everyone else who went around this ride before jump back on for another round.

Lately people seem to have taken a different tactic, and are trying to be more reasonable about telling you what they see as being wrong. Your response, on the other hand, is just a vicious as ever.

People don't just gang up on you and HG because of some weird hate conspiracy. When other admins do something shitty, they get jumped all over too. Then typically, they give some sort of explanation, the community gradually de-freaks out, and everyone moves on. When you feed the fire by doing exactly what you're accused of, well.... you're being a dick.

Why do YOU think you are targeted so much more than other admins?

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:34 am #16199

I do need to comment that Brotemis' use of an obvious political caricature of President William Howard Taft terrifies me and makes me fear that he is going to Eat me. As President Taft would have.

dionysus24779 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:08 pm

I guess it's time that I vent a little as well about what seems to be one of the most controversial admins.

First I would like to start with the good though, though I must add right away that many of Brotemis good qualities are a double edged sword. I guess Brotemis biggest strength is that he is very harsh and strict and this just is what you need sometimes. Because yes, people can be incredible assholes, especially in this game. Though for the majority this isn't the case I feel. But there needs to be a balance between the "good cop" admins and the "bad cop admins" with Brotemis taking the role of the latter. It's a frustrating and reputation-killing service, but a needed one.

Also Brotemis can be pretty merciful, honestly the two times I had to directly deal with him (ingame via admin pms) I was pretty sure I was gonna get a ban, yet both times I didn't, which genuinly suprised me.

But the thing is that Brotemis seems to often jump the gun on forums. I don't have a long record of ban requests (which is good) but the very few times my name did come up Brotemis seemed pretty set from the get go. He declares something as banworthy or that he will ban someone before that person even had the chance to explain/defend him-/herself! In theory someone could make a ban request about a Silicon killing a human and Brotemis would jump the gun and ban him before that silicon could even explain how he was subverted or whatever. This just isn't fair.

The times I had to directly deal with Brotemis weren't very pleasant because his people skill kind of suck. Talking to him feels like you're guilty until you prove your innocence instead of just talking it through. Brotemis is also kind of bossy when it comes to silicons and their laws, deciding that his interpretation of a law is the one and only way to see it. He also comes across as pretty rude and unprofessional, I can relate to being frustrated, but sometimes you feel like there's no sense in even trying to explain yourself. It's like "Why am I even talking to you? You would ban me anyway, get me another admin." you know?

It doesn't feel like he tries to clears the situation, view both sides, tries to relate where the reasoning comes from, instead it feels like he's trying to get some sort of confession to justify a ban, dictating how to play the game and instantly siding with anyone who complains against the person who wronged them.

I know Brotemis can see reason, he has proven that to me, but I also think he has to broaden his horizon and try to see things from a different perspective, especially when it comes to silicons and their laws.

I don't want to have to check what admin is online and then ask Brotemis how I should react to a law. I also shouldn't have to justify fullfilling a valid order as a borg, etc. I know that playing silicon is considered "very hard", but for nearly two years I never had any problems until recently when it feels admins are breathing down my neck, especially Brotemis.

But to make this all a bit more constructive, here's what I would like Brotemis to improve on:

- Be a bit more professional and take emotions out of it, it's not fun feeling like you're interrogated by someone enraged with foam coming from their mouth. Insulting players also doesn't really accomplish much. Which does not mean he cannot or shouldn't bring up any frustration he feels.

- Investigate more and more neutrally, it may take up more time, but it's really important to really listen to both sides of the story and maybe get in some witnesses or people who are somehow involved, also when you do that make it clear that you're just investigating and that they're not in trouble. (Like, an admin once asked me if I knew how some plasma fire started and made it sound like he was suspecting I did it which lead to some confusion and me getting defensive about being accused of doing something when innocent.)

- Communication is key, give feedback to players you deal with. Especially when something is resolved or concluded, tell the players involved what the outcome is. It's frustrating if you wait for an admin to tell you what's going to happen now, only to finally ask and get a "Yeah it's resolved.".

- Try to understand the reason and logic behind someones action, especially silicons. If silicons get a non-standard law by whatever means which leaves room for interpretation and they reach a conclusion on how to approach the law or the AI explains what it means... try to follow that and if they act way out of line, give them a friendly warning, tell them their interpretation goes too far off or they interpret it in a way that isn't really possible. Of course this is easier said than done since it implies the admins have to always check the AI laws and most of the time the interpretations silicons reach are harmless anyway. Only when it goes somewhat wrong do admins get involved, and then it's just unfair to dictate what their laws mean and declare they've acted wrong since its only ever declared in hindsight.

These things kind of apply to all admins though, but I feel like Brotemis has to really work on this.

And I don't say any of this in ill will, just honest opinion and hopefully understood as constructive criticsm.

Stay strong and vigilant Brotemis.

Edit: Some quotes from others I have to strongly agree with.

MrStonedOne wrote:
There also seems to be an issue where once he gets it in his mind that a player is a shit, that opinion will color his judgement of the player to the point that seeming innocent actions will seem like shitty actions. This is more based on conduct in the old forum's fnr boards, so i can't provide any examples until someone can link me to a archive.

Basically, out of all of the admins, I fear getting a boink from bro the most, because his attitude makes me lose confidence in the fact that if I'm not being a dick, I shouldn't have to worry about getting in trouble. All it would take is him getting getting it in his head that im a shit, or him being a dick on a day where I don't have the patience to keep the conversion from escalating.

This relates to how I feel that someone is breathing down my neck lately when I never had much trouble for all the other time I'm already on this server.

Helios127 wrote:Most of your judgement calls favor the prosecutor, not the defense.

damiac wrote:...It's that half the time, people seem to start out with you already having decided they're guilty, and everything they say after just gets twisted to prove the conclusion you already came to. When you do that, there's no going back for you, no matter what.

Exactly how I feel being interrogated.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:49 pm #17311

This is feedback worth reading, thanks.

I'll admit I don't particularly care for silicons when it comes to abusing laws. On the flip side of communication and getting both sides, the HOS was very upset because he had been tased and handcuffed and then dragged around and repeatedly slipped on banana peels. Something he wanted to prevent happening to everyone. If you happen to read the OOC chat later, he had determined he would not be coming back to the server because of this. Because you decided to interpret your "You are now 5 botanists" as an excuse to stun and cuff the HOS, who had done no harm, and had ordered you to release him and go on patrol. At no point did any of his orders conflict with your laws.

The thing to take away from this is that you acutely affected someone's round so much that there has to be a line drawn as to whats an acceptable interpretation and what isn't. I'll generally support whatever interpretation you have, but in this case, I don't think it is. Maybe that just me and I need a reality check and other admins disagree with me.

Edit: The HOS was also stripped of everything as well

dionysus24779 · Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:35 pm

Thanks for reading the feedback and liking it.

Though I didn't really wanted to discuss what "just" happened (which is why I tried to be non-specific.) and I don't wanna fill your feedback thread with a discussion about a particular decision.

But to give it a quick talk. As far as the engieborg and myself were concerned we weren't any borgs anymore, we played it like we were actually Botanists, that's why we spend the rest of the round in hydroponics with the other real botanists and acted like the other botanists (that is, being pretty laid back and not caring to join the wizard hunt). Whenever someone called us a borg or tried to order us around we explained that we aren't borgs, we were botanists and have plants to attend to. The AI didn't really say anything so in our consensus that's how we interpreted the law.

However I can see how one could argue that we were both botanists and borg, just as the real ones were both botanist and human, but since there're no actual borg-botanists we consindered ourselve humans like the other botanists.

So I do get what you're saying, but at the time that wasn't the consensus we had reached. Which in the end caused an unintended problem. When the HoS stormed in to arrest the botanist (who wasn't even the one throwing bananas around) I acted to protect my comrade from injustice, but I also see how I (even as a mere botanist) overstepped a line. That's why I merely threw the HoS out instead of something else. I understand that I (unintentionally) enabled the following abuse of the HoS by leaving him cuffed and vulnerable, however it wasn't me who stripped him down and dragged him over bananas etc.

As I once explained, I love playing borg and would never ever intentionally misinterpret my laws, ignore them or act in any malicious way on purpose. I would never risk getting a ban on one of my most favourite jobs for a quick grief and laugh. I want to be known as a reliable, robust and competent borg, putting dents in my own reputation isn't in my interest at all. So whenever I do a mistake as a borg it genuinly is a honest mistake.

As for the player claiming he will never come back... I'm not sure if I should even say it, but... on this server you do need a thick hide. I'm not saying being an asshole is allowed or justified in any way, but grief does happen but everyone (myself included) propably had their fair share of ultra-frustrating hair-pulling rounds that made them rage and genuinly upset. The whole situation that HoS had to experience wasn't okay, BUT it wasn't shrugged off as if it were okay, an Admin (you, Brotemis) did look into it, so what more can he ask for? If no admin would've cared about this taking place I could understand why he's frustrated at that, but this wasn't the case.
Also head roles are closed off to new players as far as I remember, so him being HoS means he had to have at least some experience with the server already and should know that shit happens. (which again, doesn't mean it's okay or justified.)

And of course it's not my intention to scare people away.

So... so much for this specific instance.

Edit:
The HoS propably complained to late and already after it had all happened, but how I would've liked to see this situation handled would be like:
Admin PM from Brotemis: Just a nudge, you may be a botanist, but you're still a borg, your laws still matter. Botanist being a job, borg/human being "race".
I would've instantly corrected my mistakes in behavior, though I admit that this is very easy to say in hindsight and this warning would've been necessary before things escalated for the HoS. With all the things going on at once it's hard to keep track of everything and babysitting silicons is unnecessary workload. (Though I hate it when people don't understand that in chaotic situations you can miss something, but I digress.)

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:41 am #17449

Brotemis wrote:As said before, if the idea is too radical for you then fuck you

C'mon man.
C'mon.

damiac · Post by **damiac** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:48 pm #20177

I just saw this in ban requests, and I must say, he definitely got this one right: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 987#p20167

Nice one Brotemis. Good work, way to go, and all that.

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:06 pm #20179

I think I've voiced it before but I'll say it again: harsh, sometimes rude, but doesn't tolerate shitlers, disposing of them with swiftness and brutality in a way that causes all forum warriors to spill tears.

I like his style.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:20 am #20393

I've actually witnessed an account of brotemis permabanning someone for 'metagaming' that was actually completely wrong apparently, so I think the 'swift brutality' might be misguided at times. In fact they don't even want to appeal it or have anything to do with /tg/ if admins are that hot headed, apparently, so he's not really a good example for new players as to the administration standards our servers have. Oh right, what standards?

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:35 am #20394

Could you cite this example please instead of just saying "someone" and "he". That just rings of un-specific and sniping.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:47 am #20396

I can put you in touch with them or tell you who it is if you want my information on the incident but they made a point to not return to the server after it and hearing that kind of made me bummed out. PM me if you want to discuss it further but I'm just sharing what I've observed about it, and if Brotemis does this more it really rubs me the wrong way more than his 'strict administration' does.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:26 am #20409

Good to know you can't even cite it, let alone play on the same server. I'm calling bullshit on your "fact." I ,by the large, don't even deal with new players, but players who are here to grief or otherwise. More than half the time, those that are banned are not even currently playing on the server. I mostly use the database. I am good at what I do, make no mistake in that, but if you're going to throw the "bullshit" flag yourself, you had better back up your claims.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:25 am #20413

I reallllly doubt Brotemis would make a wrong call on people metacommunicating (which is what I assume was meant).

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:52 pm #20478

It was on sybil, and I play there regularly brotemis. I know you have banned legitimate metagamers and people who ban evade which is something I love that admins regularly do outside of simple on the spot administrating, it takes extra dedication.

Like I said, I'm perfectly happy to talk it over with you because I'm interested in what you know, seeing as how you have access to the DB and all, but all I'm saying is that you made a poor judgement call from what I can tell, costing a new player a permaban. That's what I have a problem with, where your 'strict' attitude that everyone chokes on is kind of not as badass as you might think it is. Since neither niknak nor brotemis have PM'd me, I'll get on #banbus an tell any interested admin what I know, because it's pretty hilarious actually.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:47 pm #20483

Okay, this is awkward. So after some digging around, I grabbed the 2014-07-13 logs. It looks like the person, while a TERRIBLE ERPer, was in fact caught for... wait for it... for saying they should move their ERP to Steam or Skype instead.

Spoiler:

I know this isn't the place for a ban appeal or log digging, but I figure it's as good a place as any and better than most to say that Paprika was or appears to be right about this once specifics came out. 2 of the 4 people have no notes and no apparent association with the others involved?

Oro Vento and the fourth musketeer, who wasn't even on the server presently, had notes about possible metacomms; Kyle and Tessa did not. Kyle and Tessa encountered each other that round, made lube grenades together, ERPed badly (and I mean badly...), tried to take it to another medium, and got banned for it, as far as I can see.

If Brotemis could provide more details, it might be enlightening.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:45 pm #20514

I'm assuming maideninblack being the person who "contacted" paprika. Either way, you still have no idea what you're talking about in the least. All those involved had been suspected of metagaming with each other and had there was solid evidence pointing to it as well. All had been involves in griefing in some way, and elyina can attest to this. The two alive were being observed by the two dead and one's admission of metagaming is not enough to satisfy you? Get lost if you're going to bring nonspecific bullshit into feedback threads. I have no regrets or second guesses concerning these bans.
http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=902

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:04 am #20515

It's pretty specific actually. Maiden was permabanned by association even though they're a new player and had nothing to do with this griefing 'metagroup'. At best they made a lube grenade and a permaban for that is pretty terrible administrating, especially since you didn't even question them about it or anything (even though the ban wasn't about that at all), just pm'd them really aggressively and permabanned them without telling them the situation. Didn't even bother to look at how new they were either, their account was like 4 days old.

Again, this has literally nothing to do with the other three, you put an innocent (at least of what you're accusing them of) new player in your crosshairs because you didn't bother to do any actual investigating and it's pretty shit considering they don't want anything to do with the server now. Is that really something you hold no regret for? I contacted maiden a day or so after a round I played with them on the pager, then they brought up how they were permabanned for ERPing. After some basic digging and questioning them (and then pandar looking into it further) I can see how you basically made a huge fuckup and now won't even admit you were wrong. Truly horrible dude.

If your overzealous administrating hits new players like this you need to take a fucking chill pill, that's my feedback for you.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:16 am #20544

As I've said before, they were noted as griefing by Elyina before and had associated with the group before. That being said, if you ever feel like you were wrongly banned, make an appeal, go through the proper channels. If you can't be bothered to follow policy and procedure, then neither I, nor anyone else can help you. We're here to facilitate fun and enforce SOS' s rules. You don't play on the same server, let alone know this player. As far as I'm concerned, you aren't involved in this ban and can't make any sort of judgement call.

You need to chill out. Sometimes you say smart things and other times you're grasping for straws.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:21 am #20545

TheMaidenInBlack had no notes prior to that incident though?

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:26 am #20546

That was noted by Elyina as well that there apparently was a note but it disappeared or was not properly placed. A key note that was removed from the logs was the ban reason which was along the lines of "Metagaming. Please explain on the forums in detail."

As of yet, Skipper is the only one to have made an appeal and even then, I simply said to come back in a week because I'm hesitant of lifting the ban, all things considered. Not an outright no.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:00 am #20557

Sometimes permabanning people when you have no evidence that they're involved with a metagaming group is pretty much cause enough for someone to not want to associate with a server. They don't want to appeal. They think you and the rest of the /tg/ administration are conclusion-jumping gmod server admins. And you know what? I'm inclined to believe them after this.

That's the biggest issue I have with this ban, the fact that even though yeah they can appeal 99% of the time when someone is permabanned as a new player they'll just go to a new server and that's your fuckup.

I see you're backpedaling and going w-well if the ban was wrong they can just appeal! and you simply won't admit the ban was wrong. Epic dude.

Edit: Where's this proof by the way? The proof elyina supposedly gave you. Or did you just do it by hearsay. This is completely sloppy administrating.