Netrunner LCG

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:01 pm #335704

Bottom post of the previous page:

>Dig the 19 remaining cards in R&D with a sweet Counter Surveillance
>Score two points and lose the game
End me.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:25 pm #335733

Rotation confirmed to hit October 1st.

They're releasing a new core set, which will mix things up more than we thought rotation would.
A lot of things that were in the core set, and very important to the game (Kate, Noise, Account Siphon, Deja Vu, Corroder, Engineering the Future) are going to be OUT. I thought these would be untouchable because, y'know, CORE SET and all but damn

here we are.

Here's the list of stuff in the new core set, so if its not on this list and it comes from the first two cycles or the core set, come october 1st, it wont be legal anymore:

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.c ... rdlist.pdf

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:52 pm #335744

RIP Noise

Kinda sucks for someone who just recently bought the core set. I guess I came in at a bad time.

Not sure if I'll actually get this.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:15 pm #335815

Yes and no.

If you already have a core set, it's possible you might be able to buy the single datapacks that have cards in them from the first two cycles that are still legal. The new core set is only $40, which puts it at just slightly a better buy than three random datapacks.

On the flipside, though, the datapacks will guarantee you a playset of three for any cards in them, while buying just the new core set, in typical FFG fuckery, might only give you a single copy of a card you might want to run as a 3-of.

I hate that they do that with their core sets. I understand it's so complete idiots can buy the core set as if it was its own standalone board game and play it that way...but come on. If they can smarten up and learn to play the game they can figure "to build the beginner deck, just use two copies of this card instead of the three we included". It's obviously a cost-cutting measure (print fewer cards per box) combined with a really shitty incentive to buy a second copy of this $40 box just to get another copy of X card.

Granted that's still NOTHING compared to what it costs to assemble a competitive MtG deck but...still shitty.

Really good thing to do while starting out:

Dig around ebay for people selling their collections as they get out of the game. The cards aren't inherently worth anything because there's no rarity, so you can sometimes find someone selling three copies of the core set, and a bunch of datapacks for only $75 (this link will probably be very dead soon but whatever)

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:08 am #335876

Rotation or not that's a really tempting deal.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:22 am #335880

The upside of buying a bunch of the core set is you get 9 copies of goes-in-every-deck cards like Sure Gamble/Hedge Fund so if you want to roll in somewhere with a couple different corp or runner decks made and play with a couple different brews it cuts down on resleeving stuff.

Personally I just bought one core set and then found someone on ebay selling a set of "here's all the cards you need to get 3-of everything" booster thing for like $20 or something. I don't know who is just cracking core sets to put these things together but hey whatever man. Probably just someone buying people's collections as they quit and repackaging the stuff. Who knows?

I'm at the point where I see shit like this and I start to sweat and check my bank account. I really don't need this, but I want it so bad.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:11 am #338225

Indexing is the realest card in the game right now without Jackson Howard around to fuck it up.

Holy shit.

The unbridled power of this card. J Ho would fuck it up. After the run ended you would just RFG Howard, put some cards back in, and shuffle the deck, undoing Indexing.
With Jackson in every.single.corp.deck Indexing was straight up unplayable. But now that he's gone it's absurdly powerful. Complete 180 from "one of the worst cards you could think to use" to an incredibly consistent and efficient wincon.

It gets even more ridiculous if you stack things with cards like

or

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:29 am #338246

Successful meta shakeup was successful. Usually when a non-cycling game suddenly cycles its really shitty but having a new core set was really really smart and made a lot of shit better. For example runners can't as easily just smash the corporate's game and basically tell them they can't play, and corps have fewer non-interactive wins. Because the focus is less on hyper optimal cheese your theme decks get to shine more brightly.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:11 pm #338349

Here's a little rules clarification that might help. I was confused about it at first:

There's a few pieces of ICE like this now that have trash costs associated with them and "When accessed" effects. This guy, for example, bites you on the hand after a successful run and tries to blow up one of your programs. When accessed from HQ or RD it behaves like both a piece of ICE and an ambush asset. You can use an Icebreaker or other thing-that-you-defeat-ICE-with you may have to break the routine, but then afterwards, like an asset, you have the option of paying the trash cost to chuck it into Archives.

My initial fear with these kinds of ICE was that it would be too easy for the runner to trash them after I installed them protecting servers. A click to install (plus maybe some more credits, if it's the 2nd or 3rd piece of ICE) and then 3 creds to rez later just for one shot at a program, that they spend 2 credits to trash afterwards is pretty shitty IMO.

Here's the thing: access and encounter are two different things. Once installed in a server it wont be accessed again, just encountered during runs on that server. So after you've installed it on the table the trash cost ceases to be a thing.

Neat.

While that one may not be all that great I know a few of you Jinteki players who should probably take a long, hard look at this one:

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:26 pm #338402

Chrysalis is great when you need more trap density in your hand. However it is rather non-taxing as actual ice goes. It is a great card, but it definitely is something you should look at, rather than something you should always toss in. That honor goes to Kakugo.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:48 pm #338404

Kakugo is such a nice ICE
End the run or take damage, no way around it

It doesnt actually keep the runner out, but it will make them reconsider running

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:54 pm #338405

Yeah. It really fits a niche Jinteki needs its ICE to do. The entire point of Jinteki is not to keep runners out, but to make it painful. Kakugo does this by eternally being taxing even though its cost to break (like most Jinteki ICE) is really poor. For your traps to do work you need the runner to be slow enough running that you can set shit up, and Kakugo does the job.

Despite in my mind basically being an auto include in any deck that intends to do damage to tax, its also a really fair card, it doesn't overwhelm the runner, it just lets Jinteki do work.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:59 am #338840

Overwhelming the runner with things to do math over is a major way the corp wins games. It's getting them to fuck up the math and run early, wasting a ton of credits in the process for nothing. Getting them to forget about a tag effect that lets you punish them, one too many points of net damage that leaves them vulnerable. Kakugo does that perfectly. It's right on that perfect balance for a card somewhere between "It's good" and "it's overpowered". It's a no-brainer include in EVERY Jinteki deck and can probably put in some work in other decks too *cough* *cough* *cough*

I think right up until this rotation the game had devolved a little into MtG style rock-paper-scissors matchups where a lot of games were going to be won or lost just based on decklist. Whose meme deck is the spiciest.

This rotation doesn't really "bring things back" to a golden era, since even from day one we had NBN holy-shit-stop-that FA decks and day two gave us Chaos Theory datasucker/parasite constant recursion shenanigans. I think in a lot of ways the game is moving in a direction that's better than ever since we have a lot of theme-y strats that actually get to be very good, but you can also make a really good deck by just sticking to the basic principals of the game and using cards that just help you be plain efficient.

The Anarch virus theme is kinda dead in the water right now without Djinn, Grimoire, Noise, Deja Vu, Medium, etc. I'm hoping this next cycle gives us some new support for that.

I'll always argue that Criminal is underpowered but I'm beginning to see that I just haven't been playing to what their strengths are. Plus Amakua is fucking gnarly. Run a 3x of that and 2x each of the Anarch "jumps out of your heap to fuck them in the eye socket" breakers. Get your expose cards going. Good deck.

I'll also always argue that Jinteki is overpowered but similarly I've just never been that great at running against them but I'm finally (after like THREE FUCKING YEARS OF PLAYING) figuring out what I've been doing wrong all this time.

So yeah, tl;dr I don't think the game is "going back" to a golden era as far as the card pool is concerned I think what we're seeing now and moving into IS the golden era.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:00 am #338908

I don't know about any golden ages, but I do know I'm having fun with it

The rotation makes it hard for me to really make a new deck though, Jinteki.net doesn't have a card filter for just post-rotation valid stuff yet and I never learned to use netrunnerdb

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:20 pm #338965

I think part of what's made the rotation so enjoyable is that most of the auto includes are gone, so right now people are trying out all kinds of messes.

NEXT design despite it's 12 influence can be a powerhouse of a first turn play when you aren't REQUIRED to ice HQ for siphon and R&D for medium.

I guess in general there are less oh I fucked up and now the game is just over plays on both side. Ice with low strength aren't worthless because parasite. It's really entertaining to see cards like Magnet and go oh right that was hating just one specific card.

Netrunnerdb's really useful. Be aware the card suggestion tool is a little funky right now post rotation.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:37 pm #339083

When deckbuilding you can click on the Collection tab in the upper left right and turn off the stuff that isn't legal. You'll only be able to see stuff in the card list to the right that comes from legal sets afterwards.

I don't know if the suggested cards will still suggest legal things or not.

Jinteki.net updated to include the goofy 1.1.1.1. format but not a check for rotation or not, which is kinda weird. I guess it'll probably just update after the 1st, since TECHNICALLY SPEAKING rotation hasn't hit yet and everything is still tournament legal.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:49 am #339178

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/n ... ign-sight/

Holy shit this got announced over a week ago and nobody noticed aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:31 am #339207

That article shows some interesting cards

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:13 pm #339254

That's because it was announced the same day as rotation. Gene Splicer and Echo chamber, yay more ways to get points into your deck that can't be stolen. Urban renewal is cool. A neutral 5/3 that helps protect itself. Flame out I'm betting boosts the strength of the program for free, but you trash it after.

Also that's this rumblings about a banned restricted list. The argument was extra influence just separated t1 decks from t2 more.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:41 pm #339385

The price you pay for those agenda points that can't be stolen is that you still need a minimum amount of agenda points, right?

It's neat, but you're still going to have to protect agendas and your R&D, plus the runner could just run on those and break them

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:44 pm #339418

Yes, You still need a minimum number of agenda points. It does however increase the frequency that they have to run on you or else you'll score.

Public support is the best example of this being done well. When you get to the last turn before it goes off can be a good time to try to score something else as well, since it forces them to pick where they will run.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:44 am #339529

I thought I was being smart and ran Skorpios with 3x mother goddess, thinking only AI icebreakers could break through that one

And then I found out it's a unique and I can only rez one of them at a time, deck idea busted

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:48 pm #339671

Skorpios tend to run barriers because they are the cheapest form of ice, are non porous, and are part of weyland.

Also a lot of decks run 1x paperclip because its hyper efficient but high influence, and sniping a lone fracter wins the game for you.

Some anti-ai and program trash ICE can also be splashed if you feel the need. Squirtle decks are very popular so AI ICE have a lot of value for you

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:40 pm #339739

Squirtle decks?
AI Ice?

I still have no idea what these mean

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:49 pm #339744

XSI wrote:Squirtle decks?
AI Ice?

I still have no idea what these mean

Squirtle

AI ICE is the ICE that specifically say "subroutines cannot be broken by AI icebreakers or ICE that get bonuses to str or subroutines or a special effect when the runner has an installed AI.

Like this ball of joy.

Or Jack Weyland's electronic legacy here.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:34 pm #339793

I just checked and there really isn't much for anti-AI

Only those and Turing from HB as far as I could find

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:34 am #339806

Heance the proliferation of Squirtle decks. That said, its very easy to find a slot for each of the two I posted above in most ICE suites. Unless you're working a specific profile of ICE anyway.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:01 am #340119

cedarbridge wrote:https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/n ... ign-sight/

Holy shit this got announced over a week ago and nobody noticed aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I've been chatting with people about some of the stuff they've spoiled in here a little bit.

Like I was specifically bitching about that new Jinteki asset that either blasts you for net damage for each advancement counter on it, or if it gets three counters can be turned into a 1 point agenda.
FUCK YOU, GAME.

Urban Renewal looks like they smashed Public Support and Scorched Earth together. It looks like an interesting card that is also a bad card. The runner can defeat it by just making sure they have enough cards in hand at the end of the turn before it triggers. Ho hum. I see potential in Weyland FA decks that are packing Show of Force as well but that's a really narrow line with a lot of setup just to make that card go off. You need to install it, let it sit for three turns, and then windmill slam through SoF in the same turn it goes off. Ehhhhhh. I'd rather just run Public Support and get the agenda point that I can forfeit later to fuel the FA or my big bad ICE. Not that Public Support is a great card either, but sometimes useful.

That Apex card though, Assimilator? Promising. 6 credits to install it as a resource, and then I think I'm seeing the cost to turn something face up is just a click?
That could be bonkers for an alternative Apex deck that uses regular breakers and a regular rig instead of his core identity breaker. Installing something like Blackguard or Monolith at the start of your turn face-down for free, then turning it face up for a click? Yeah man that's potent. Even just regular rig building, being able to completely ignore the printed cost of one piece of hardware or program a turn? Damn son.

We'll have to wait and see what the full card text actually is. There must be some kind of drawback (I imagine the rest of the printed text we can make out on the card probably says "If it's an event, trash it" because otherwise the game's logic would break down when you just have an installed event sitting on the table).

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:33 pm #340310

XSI wrote:I just checked and there really isn't much for anti-AI

Only those and Turing from HB as far as I could find

Wraparound and Swordsman are also AI ICE.

Wraparound is probably the best. Without an AI its still a non-porous ETR barrier which almost always cost 2 credits to break, and it costs 2 credits itself. With AI it can easily cost 6-8 credits to break. It gets past the fact that barrier ICE is the easiest ICE to break in the game by just being crazy expensive or annoying for AI to break. For example Aumakua will take 7 accesses to get the 1 cred efficiency, which generally takes 2 turns. This means just alternating purge and actually playing you can shut down Expose-jack out combo decks from getting into any server with a wraparound on it ever.

Swordsman is really weak vs non-AI. However it has the biggest potential reward of the AI Breakers, in that it snipes the AI, or one of the cards supporting the AI. AI breakers very often run AI to replace Killer breakers more than Fracters or Decoders, because while sentry ICE is almost always low strength, its always wonky to increase killer strength, making AIs often much more efficient at breaking sentry ICE than killers. This means your more likely to go up against a player without a Killer but with an AI than any other ICE in the game, especially if your splashing Swordsman into Weyland, which makes people very comfortable running against you without Killers. Sniping a program vs a runner can have a very big effect on the game, almost as much as just killing the runner depending on matchup. However swordsman is way more feast or famine than wraparound, and should be reserved for AI heavy metas or as a really nasty surprise if your deck lacks any other form of sentry and you really want both program destruction and anti-AI.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:04 pm #340324

I'm up to 3 corp decks, and 1 runner deck that I still need to try out
For a total of 3 runners, 5 corps.
One of the corp decks is a huge gigantic meme and it will amuse me a lot to play it, but I'm pretty sure it will also fail horribly

Going to need to poke people to play more often

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:45 pm #341329

Update on the meme corp deck:

Failed horribly. Turns out mother goddess is unique, and so is Loki. So my idea of having ICE everywhere that has no barrier/sentry/code gate on it is sadly busted
I can technically protect two servers with those two, but then that leaves either no scoring remote or R&D/HQ unprotected

I could try some kind of 'shuffle HQ cards back into R&D' thing and have no agendas in hand, possibly. Research continues

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:35 pm #341392

if you have two pieces of ICE you can guarantee cannot be broken, put them on RD and one remote.

Use this as your identity:

Draw a fuckton of cards, horde your agendas, slam them into your scoring remote and run them through.
Pray the runner doesn't luck out with multi-access on HQ and win anyway

Runners picking at your HQ one card at a time probably wont ever get anything. Odds are against them when at most 3-4 cards out of the 20+ you should be holding are agendas. 20% per run to even do anything, get fukt.

Counter-Surveillance and some criminal run events are your big threats. The Gauntlet does nothing to you because you don't ICE up HQ. Legwork is annoying but not a huge deal.

CBI Raid really kinda fucks your shit up.
Information Sifting REALLY KINDA FUCKS YOUR SHIT UP, FAM.

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:43 pm #341396

XSI wrote:Update on the meme corp deck:

Failed horribly. Turns out mother goddess is unique, and so is Loki. So my idea of having ICE everywhere that has no barrier/sentry/code gate on it is sadly busted
I can technically protect two servers with those two, but then that leaves either no scoring remote or R&D/HQ unprotected

I could try some kind of 'shuffle HQ cards back into R&D' thing and have no agendas in hand, possibly. Research continues

I think you could use chimera and just let it derez but that may have cycled out. Also Trap ice can be helpful in this style of deck to bluff with.

Also Banlist was real. Guess it's time to retool decks AGAIN.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:46 pm #341399

HAHA THIS LIST

WEW LADS

WEEEEEEW LADS

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:47 pm #341402

Fuck Aaron Marron

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:14 pm #341411

Him, Film Critic, Beth, and Bloo Moose are all such spicy one-ofs for the runner.

Now three of those four are on the list.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:42 pm #341454

Chimera is indeed rotating

The problem with trap ICE is that most trap ICE is absolutely terrible, and I can't even guarrantee Loki+Mother Goddess won't be broken either because AI breakers can still get in. That's why I tried it in Skorpio, to kill off the AI breakers.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:21 pm #342387

Updated my stuff to the latest wanted list

5 runners,
4 corps
And 3 corps that really are just meming, I don't even know why I bother with those
Their names are:
This is Retarded
This is more retarded
This is even worse

Now to find time and people to play

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:30 am #343172

Caught my friend trying to sneak one of these past me in his Jinteki deck

Luckily I had ran on it when he installed it and only advanced it once.
Spicy card. I think I only glanced over it once when cracking packs and sorting my collection but this was my first time encountering it in the wild. Could actually have a lot of value in other decks where the runner isn't thinking of possible Junebuggery. Install-advance-advance in a scoring remote bluffs a Global Foods, but would let me score a Hostile Takeover out of hand while also taxing the runner all the credits for the succesful run.

Kind of a narrow play, though. For that I could just slam the Hostile Takeover through.
Doesn't let you score things over-advanced for Beale/Atlas/etc. shenanigans either.

Still, neat card.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:41 am #343174

Timbrewolf wrote:Still, neat card.

It turns those desperate last click runs into a nightmare scenario for the runner too. If they know you're running this, they'll be scared of running remotes and try to break that monster you built in front of HQ instead. If they don't know you're running it, and you're playing Jinteki junebug memes they're likely to ignore it as a junebug/overwriter setup. If you snatch this on 2 to land a Breaking News you get the tag at the end of their turn as they spend their last click running to land in this, tax themselves out of safe counter-trace economy and get set up for the snapback boom/hunter seeker/etc the turn after.

That's part of why Data Raven gets so much value. I'd rather tag you on your turn than tag you on my turn and have to wait out your turn to see if it sticks.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:12 am #344273

cedarbridge wrote:That's part of why Data Raven gets so much value. I'd rather tag you on your turn than tag you on my turn and have to wait out your turn to see if it sticks.

Yeah that's been Data Raven's real threat for ages, the ability to start my turn as the corp by throwing a tag at you, then pulling the shenanigans. Taking a tag to keep the run going wasn't really a big deal until they started adding NBN ICE that only woke up and started doing shit to you if you were tagged during the run. Putting this behind Data Raven was annoying fun

But you still needed something after it to end the run, and it blew up after one use, so it was funny to basically hit them with a Closed Accounts during a run (and also maybe fuck up their ability to shed that tag before the end of their turn) but in a post-Scorched meta it's not that great anymore.

...but then they gave us this...

Which made a really strong One-Two-Fuck-You combo between the two.

And now we have this...

...which unless they have some kind of immediate mid-run tag removal says, pretty definitely GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY SERVER YOU SHIT...when placed behind a Data Raven.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:08 am #344283

Those, and NBN in general is why I splash this thing in any runner deck that has extra influence and isnt too heavy on the cards
One influence, 2 credits, and I can tell Data Raven(the first at least) to take that tag and shove it right where the sun won't shine

Bonus points: Also works on Komainu and some other scattered ICE, so it can turn a dangerous Jinteki Inazuma into Komainu into "These two pieces of ICE do nothing at all", and it stops grail-ICE pretty good(Does anyone actually run those?)
I'll only need to use it once for it to break even, 2 credits and a click would have shed that one tag, if I use it the next turn too then I'm purely profiting
It's a dead card sometimes, but then you just toss it when you've drawn something worth keeping

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:57 pm #344345

XSI wrote:Those, and NBN in general is why I splash this thing in any runner deck that has extra influence and isnt too heavy on the cards
One influence, 2 credits, and I can tell Data Raven(the first at least) to take that tag and shove it right where the sun won't shine

Bonus points: Also works on Komainu and some other scattered ICE, so it can turn a dangerous Jinteki Inazuma into Komainu into "These two pieces of ICE do nothing at all", and it stops grail-ICE pretty good(Does anyone actually run those?)
I'll only need to use it once for it to break even, 2 credits and a click would have shed that one tag, if I use it the next turn too then I'm purely profiting
It's a dead card sometimes, but then you just toss it when you've drawn something worth keeping

This sounds great until you hit a popup window. Way more useful in Apex for obvious reasons.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:26 pm #344388

Sure, but thats still 1 credit denied to the corp once per turn, and you get to choose whether or not to use it if you think tollbooth is behind that popup
It will add up over time at least if there isn't. As long as you're against NBN that card is a great investment
Pop up window may be the least useful thing to use it on, but NBN is full of ICE that does stuff on encounter. Sure, it only hits Komainu in Jinteki and it only hits Brainstorm and Loki in HB, but I think NBN is enough of a dick to runners with the tagging to make it worth including a copy

Besides, everyone now has open influence and card slots with Film Critic being removed, may as well slot that in until you find something better

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:33 am #344550

Well Jinteki has started doing win loss tracking by deck, and I feel like a scrub. That is all.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:13 am #344571

My meme experiment of Skorpios Mother Goddess+Loki has been tweaked. Squirtle killed Loki really quickly and I couldn't get a scoring window, so the solution was simple

Kill the turtle
Or at least just kill off the virus counters by slapping this guy into archives

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:30 pm #344659

cedarbridge wrote:This sounds great until you hit a popup window. Way more useful in Apex for obvious reasons.

You get to choose when to use it. Putting a Pop-Up Window in front of a Data Raven wont force you to waste your Hunting Grounds ability. It is a pretty spicy one-of card out of Apex.

Sovereign Sight now has a release date, the 20th of this month. Get ready to see fucking Gene Splicer everywhere. I already hate that card and it's not even out yet.

Wew lads. Just...

Wew...

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:48 pm #344664

Aren't you hype about seeing those and Echo Chamber in the same Haarp decks?

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:45 pm #344697

3 of them in every deck!
Just like Snare

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:41 pm #344717

Harpsichord has anti-synergy with Echo Chamber as it is not an agenda that can be stolen, it is an asset that gives you 1 agenda point under specific conditions.

These cards aren't as powerful as they seem, and I am struggling to imagine a deck that can make serious use of them. Unlike the runner, the corp already has plenty of ways to burn a turn of setup for an agenda point, and they were always seen as really low value and bad because 1 agenda point scores from the corp's perspective rarely help because you need to generally burn at least 4 turns (2 per agenda) to get enough agenda points for the points to be relevant. 1 pointers were almost always run for their effect as a result, with their status as agendas being secondary or used for combos in Weyland. Even though these cards can't be stolen they still increase the ratio of cards that need defending to cards that defend other cards and that is a struggle.

Echo chamber is, essentially, a 1/3 point agenda that has the effect "can't be stolen, doesn't cost credits to advance." While self protection is nice it isn't likely good enough to overcome the problems 1/3s have.

Gene Splicer seems even weirder, because it has anti-synergy with pretty much every Jinteki deck that would want to run it. First, its important to remember it is a very weak trap, with it dealing 2 damage rather than 4 on a turn it fires. It also can't ever realistically instakill a runner as when advanced far enough a runner would likely either assume its a junebug, do something like driveby it, or would just let you take the 1 agenda point if they think it is splicing. Gene splicing is a 1/4 that costs 1 extra credit to score, and which deals 2 net damage if its and can't be stolen, only trashed. Remember that low amounts of net damage are a minor tax, not really a threat, once the runner has their rig up. Feedback Filter also exists and turns net damage into a 3 credit tax, and it isn't an uncommon card.

The really interesting thing about this isn't the fact it deals damage, but that its a trash cost to deny you points, but IG doesn't need 1 pointers at all as their agenda choices make the value of them questionable unless you can multiscore. Harmony just flat out doesn't have the money to use this effect. Palana doesn't have time for this bullshit. Biotech doesn't have any real meaningful interaction with this card save maybe really weird interactions with The Tank.

This makes PE slightly more taxing and trap dense (but PE doesn't need more trap density, and note this is NOT you scoring an agenda, its added as if it was an agenda, same deal as Mad Dash not hurting the runner extra hard if "scored" playing against PE, and because PE already taxes on 1/3 theft it seems better to just run 1/3s with good score effects) but seems to ACTUALLY matter the most in RP decks (As any access on a pseudo-agenda is painful and RP decks benefit from a "dead" turn to set up a 1 point score if it ever gets accessed) and Tennin Institute (they can score this without actions and make use of their corporate ability on turns they can't protect agendas, giving it more similar value to a 2/1 than a 4/1). However I think the most realistic home for this card is Potential Unleashed, which is more likely than any other ID to not have a "Solved" agenda distribution and dramatically benefits from any time something a runner has to do costs net.

Its important to be really cognizant of how little value a 1 agenda point card has on its own. Mad Dash requires a lone click of setup and is supported by cards any Shaper is going to use anyway, and still doesn't see universal play despite being a free runner controlled agenda point. Corps already control their own agenda points, already score them based on windows when the runner can't run, and already have the option for 1/3s. I think the fact the runner can't get the 1/3 isn't going to overcome the fact most of these are textless or pseudo textless.

The big exception may be Weyland because having more agendas to sacrifice is always good, and because many of their agendas are run as "Triple Operations" they often end up with agenda schemes where getting a random 1 pointer out dramatically changes the game state. Also it makes archer MUCH easier to Rez "legitimately" early game. When I read Echo Chamber as "NBN, 1/3 agenda that must be advanced in one turn and can't be stolen, only trashed" I am not as intimidated as when I read "Weyland, 1/3, must be advanced as a pesudo-triple operation, get a free rez of Archer." Archer being on a scoring server early game is seriously scary shit and in a Weyland deck can easily end the game fast.

XSI · Post by **XSI** » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:00 am #344781

I double checked and re-read the thing

So in short:
1 trash cost(Practically free)
3 clicks+credits to advance unless you're using cards to advance it
And one extra click to cash in

This is seeming a lot less good than it seemed at first, though I think it's still an amusing one to put a one-off in a deck that otherwise doesn't have a lot of traps. Or maybe in Weyland if there's ever a forfeit agenda Weyland deck. Main gimmick of forfeiting that is, not as a side thing of 'oh yeah I guess I can forfeit some takeovers for stuff'