/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 9:49 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

oranges wrote:americans are utterly deranged when they try to defend their gun laws

just say
>it's our constitutional right and I don't agree with gun control because I like using firearms.

Then we all nod that you're crazy and move on

Expecting american's to forcefully conform to your standards that disbands their opinion and legal rights.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 11:49 am**

Rustledjimm wrote:Try minimum alcohol pricing. Absolute rage about it up here.

Doesn't bother me mind, I don't really drink ASDA own brand lager.

Get yourself a big bucket and some yeast

they can't charge you alcohol duty if it isn't alcohol until after you buy it

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 1:03 pm**

>moonshine

enjoy your blindness

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 2:58 pm**

All this gun control stuff is ultimately pointless anyway

If people start shooting eachother just because they have guns, they sure as fuck will shoot the cops coming to take their guns.
You can convince cops to try that for maybe two or three days, but after that they'll be tired of getting shot at

Regardless of what people think of them, guns are there to stay. Especially with upcoming 3d printing letting people print guns. Not amazing guns, but still guns

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 3:06 pm**

You don't send cops to confiscate guns, you send FBI SWAT teams, the army or the national guard, it would be a military operation coordinated between combined arms supporting each other to minimize fatalities and guarantee speed and efficiency.

But this is an old chestnut, "the army wouldn't fire on fellow american citizens yadda yadda" (despite the fact they are sworn to defend the US against all enemies both foreign and domestic)

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 5:20 pm**

XSI wrote:All this gun control stuff is ultimately pointless anyway

If people start shooting eachother just because they have guns, they sure as fuck will shoot the cops coming to take their guns.
You can convince cops to try that for maybe two or three days, but after that they'll be tired of getting shot at

Regardless of what people think of them, guns are there to stay. Especially with upcoming 3d printing letting people print guns. Not amazing guns, but still guns

Are you really that certain that people would irrationally shoot at the police without a deathwish (rather than "alright guvenor a slap on the wrist for you and a cell with a TV for the next 10 years for killing a quarter of the local police force and handfuls of innocent bystanders" aka: Anders Behring Breivik closer to home and in living memory) and that by walking in and taking the guns away you're creating a major constitutional crisis in a country besides your own.

This week, multiple people have been knived and gunned down in England outside London in a country with a incredibly high level of intolerance to personal weapons and level of monitoring of the public, If you really want a gunless society then either accept people have guns and veto those who use them in bad faith utmost severely while working with the community who own guns who are likely to be pro-law abiding citizens or follow Japan with ultra strict gun laws to express competency and reason (though thiers works mainly because there was not a lot of gun ownership in the first place and it bureaucratizes the process of obtaining fresh new guns to be hard.)

The western world's relation with guns is mostly through antiques and those either bought illegally or literally handed down between generations,

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 6:10 pm**

Grazyn wrote:You don't send cops to confiscate guns, you send FBI SWAT teams, the army or the national guard, it would be a military operation coordinated between combined arms supporting each other to minimize fatalities and guarantee speed and efficiency.

But this is an old chestnut, "the army wouldn't fire on fellow american citizens yadda yadda" (despite the fact they are sworn to defend the US against all enemies both foreign and domestic)

You want a civil war? That's how you get a civil war. You'd have to deploy the millitary across the entire country and invade every single person's privacy known gun owner or not since a ton of guns in the country the government doesn't know about. It'd be fucking hysterically unpopular.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 6:20 pm**

The US government has contingency plans for everything. I'd be surprised if they don't have a plan to deal with such a scenario (mass police action backed by the army with nation-wide unrest)

Also it wouldn't be like "every single gun must be confiscated or the operation is a failure", if a bunch of farmers who live off the radar in the middle of nowhere get to keep their guns, so be it, they'll get to them eventually

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 6:22 pm**

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Grazyn wrote:You don't send cops to confiscate guns, you send FBI SWAT teams, the army or the national guard, it would be a military operation coordinated between combined arms supporting each other to minimize fatalities and guarantee speed and efficiency.

But this is an old chestnut, "the army wouldn't fire on fellow american citizens yadda yadda" (despite the fact they are sworn to defend the US against all enemies both foreign and domestic)
You want a civil war? That's how you get a civil war. You'd have to deploy the millitary across the entire country and invade every single person's privacy known gun owner or not since a ton of guns in the country the government doesn't know about. It'd be fucking hysterically unpopular.

That is a point. If you wanted to get rid of the 2nd amendment in any meaningful way, it'd also be necessary to trample the 4th - and try getting that past groups like the ACLU.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 6:41 pm**

Grazyn wrote:The US government has contingency plans for everything. I'd be surprised if they don't have a plan to deal with such a scenario (mass police action backed by the army with nation-wide unrest)

Also it wouldn't be like "every single gun must be confiscated or the operation is a failure", if a bunch of farmers who live off the radar in the middle of nowhere get to keep their guns, so be it, they'll get to them eventually

I sincerely doubt they have such a plan since the army would almost certainly be backing the citizenry in such a scenario unless the situation was actually so dire that it warranted it.

And I'm not talking about bumblefuck farmers, I'm talking about the vast majority of guns being untracked and untrackable. Guns are given away as gifts are sold off the market all the time, the only way you'd figure out where they were is either someone telling you or by searching everything and hoping you find one.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 7:00 pm**

The first civil war was over slavery MUH STATE RIGHTS. The second civil war will be over guns MUH FREEDOM.

You heard it here first kids.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 7:03 pm**

I mean only if the government actually somehow passes a ban on guns despite it being a hysterically unpopular issue

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 7:04 pm**

Rustledjimm wrote:The first civil war was over slavery MUH STATE RIGHTS. The second civil war will be over guns MUH FREEDOM.

You heard it here first kids.

i mean yeah, but that's only gonna happen if they actually try to forcefully take guns
the fact is that gun control is just too hard/laughably impossible to actually fully implement due to the scale of the US and the spread of guns being so wide
as i already posted, whether guns are good or bad is really irrelevant, because the fact is at this point we just can't implement any meaningful method of removing guns. we can make future guns harder to acquire, but that's about it, and illegal weaponry would still be largely unaffected.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 7:37 pm**

CosmicScientist wrote:So no headpat?

Sorry was phoneposting

Of course you can get a headpat.

*gives many headpats to cosmic*

you headpat slut

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 7:43 pm**

Kor wrote:
Kor wrote:Jumping off a bridge takes significantly more planning than picking up an object in your home and applying 5lb of force to a trigger. Strangling yourself also takes quite a bit more work and is less likely to succeed.

Most suicide attempts are very impulsive and most people who try it don't do it again afterwards, so if they're talked down or live through the attempt it gives you a chance to treat them.

If you want to make a "freedom vs security" argument or whatever, go ahead, I'm not gonna get into the philosophical weeds with you, but "suicidal people are unstoppable Terminators bent on self destruction, we are helpless" is one of the dumber talking points that keeps popping up in gun debates.

Doubt you'll click through to either link but they'll make my post look nicer so

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21034205 IDF suicide rates drop after restricting access to firearms on the weekends

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/ Citations for the stuff about suicide being impulsive + the methods mattering
Quoting this so david can again quietly drop out of the argument then go back to saying the same disproven nonsense a couple months later

Operation "emptyquote" is a go

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 7:51 pm**

tbh I have literally zero interest in the gun debate.

The only thought I have on the topic is that the media needs to stop over-reporting every incident because in most cases it leads to encouraging other shootings, much how people imitate serial killers in copycat killings.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 9:01 pm**

Grazyn wrote:they'll get to them eventually

Imagine actually wanting to live in this flavor of dystopia, but unironically.

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 9:28 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Rustledjimm wrote:The first civil war was over slavery MUH STATE RIGHTS. The second civil war will be over guns MUH FREEDOM.

You heard it here first kids.
i mean yeah, but that's only gonna happen if they actually try to forcefully take guns
the fact is that gun control is just too hard/laughably impossible to actually fully implement due to the scale of the US and the spread of guns being so wide
as i already posted, whether guns are good or bad is really irrelevant, because the fact is at this point we just can't implement any meaningful method of removing guns. we can make future guns harder to acquire, but that's about it, and illegal weaponry would still be largely unaffected.

It wouldn't happen out of the blue. If I wanted to achieve full gun control, that's how I'd do it. It would be a slow, multi-phase approach

Phase 1: creation of consent/public support
staged mass shootings, exploitation of mass shootings, media fanfare, protests, astroturfing - basically, what is already happening.
This phase wouldn't actually end but continue through the whole ordeal to guarantee constant support

Phase 2: reduction of access, traceability
gun tax, national gun registry, compile databases, ban private sales/gun show sales, crack down on the secondary market, background checks, exploit social media to acquire data on off-registry gun owners, increase bureucracy on sales, start school programs to encourage children to inform on gun owners, be their neighbour or their parents and family friends

Phase 3: soft bans, first gun reduction
nationwide buy-back programs, ban rifles/carbines (exceptions for specific hunting licences), don't touch handguns and pistols

Phase 4: all firearms banned
by now people are used to guns being a "hot" item, offer every kind of incentive to give up your gun, heavy astroturfing campaign to ostracize gun owners, start placing deadlines and threats of arrests. Most people in large liberal urban centers will comply without question

Phase 5: forced confiscation
the aforementioned "civil war" scenario, it wouldn't actually be a civil war but a complex and swift military action with very limited casualties, focused on uncompliant multiple-gun owners. Planning for this phase would start as soon as phase 1 with exercises and contingency plans (think Jade Helm) and will rely heavily on the accuracy of the tracking process in phase 2. Casualties will appear as traitors and criminals thanks to years of propaganda on the media, and the violent state action will prompt more people to comply and give up their guns in exchange of pardons.

Congratulation, now you should have reduced the number of privately owned weapons by 70-80% and can finally start every authoritarian reform you've always dreamed of but was afraid to do because of the armed populace! And they said it was hard...

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 9:30 pm**

>staged mass shootings
>already happening
are you the new shadowdimentio?

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 9:44 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:>staged mass shootings
>already happening
are you the new shadowdimentio?

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 9:50 pm**

>his byond name is david

Posted: **Mon May 07, 2018 10:01 pm**

ColonicAcid wrote:>his byond name is david

What did he mean by this

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 2:01 am**

Wyzack wrote:
Kor wrote:
Kor wrote:Jumping off a bridge takes significantly more planning than picking up an object in your home and applying 5lb of force to a trigger. Strangling yourself also takes quite a bit more work and is less likely to succeed.

Most suicide attempts are very impulsive and most people who try it don't do it again afterwards, so if they're talked down or live through the attempt it gives you a chance to treat them.

If you want to make a "freedom vs security" argument or whatever, go ahead, I'm not gonna get into the philosophical weeds with you, but "suicidal people are unstoppable Terminators bent on self destruction, we are helpless" is one of the dumber talking points that keeps popping up in gun debates.

Doubt you'll click through to either link but they'll make my post look nicer so

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21034205 IDF suicide rates drop after restricting access to firearms on the weekends

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/ Citations for the stuff about suicide being impulsive + the methods mattering
Quoting this so david can again quietly drop out of the argument then go back to saying the same disproven nonsense a couple months later
Operation "emptyquote" is a go

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 8:38 am**

acceptable selfquote tbh

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 9:52 am**

Xsi's post on fixing society is about the only sane post. Imagine the creativity of grazyns post or energy from the furor from either side of the debate put to making people be able to be better people. What a shame.

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 9:56 am**

That is to say, in between the chilling conclusion of grazyns post and kors links, there must be a happy medium possible for any society which achieved a minimum of people who need to seek help.

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 10:03 am**

imblyings wrote:That is to say, in between the chilling conclusion of grazyns post and kors links, there must be a happy medium possible for any society which achieved a minimum of people who need to seek help.

I wish "we need to improve mental healthcare" was an actual statement with an actual follow-up and not just a sentence thrown in by politicians every time there's a mass shooting to switch the focus from gun control. This isn't just an american issue, the state of mental healthcare everywhere is abysmal

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 10:10 am**

as evidenced by people like you still having internet access instead of being institutionalised
lmao gottem

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 2:19 pm**

I'm not even trying to argue about whether we should regulate/ban/whatever guns or not (because I know such a debate is pointless*), I just think it is perverse to spread harmful myths about suicide and throw sick people under the bus to try and win a political argument.

*The fact that multiple people assumed I wanted to ban all guns for even recognizing there are downsides to them shows how completely broken dialogue around the issue is.

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 3:28 pm**

In regards to suicide prevention and treatment mental health care "improvements" a lot of that is going to have to come from within the practice. It isn't like there are current laws or barriers preventing MHS from being "improved" but that the current practices implemented don't really allow for a wide range of interventions that allow for the sort of long-term treatment required. For instance, Canada (and I believe the US works on a similar model) really doesn't have much beyond the "Helpline" > voluntary psychiatric evaluation >involuntary commission model. This means that when the two layers below fail, the only thing the system knows how to do for a patient suffering from depression leading to suicide is to throw them into a psych ward with manics, psychotics and patients deluded with other severe abnormal psychological conditions (violent schizophrenia for example.) I've got a friend dealing with that currently.

This is mostly due to a lack of methodical research in the field, our general just unknowable quantities about how the human brain works even now, the fact that most drugs prescribed for MH patients are co-morbid with either the same or entirely different severe mental health issues (heance why so many newsmaking violent episodes you end up hearing about are on one flavor of SSRI or the other), and partly that people around sufferers really just don't know what to do to help because even MH professionals don't really know what to do in many cases.

The field is also becoming increasingly politicized from within, but its not really right to ascribe that to part of the failure of the MH apparatus as a whole.

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 5:03 pm**

Grazyn wrote:
imblyings wrote:That is to say, in between the chilling conclusion of grazyns post and kors links, there must be a happy medium possible for any society which achieved a minimum of people who need to seek help.
I wish "we need to improve mental healthcare" was an actual statement with an actual follow-up and not just a sentence thrown in by politicians every time there's a mass shooting to switch the focus from gun control. This isn't just an american issue, the state of mental healthcare everywhere is abysmal

Alright, here we go
"we need to improve mental healthcare"

Step 1- Understanding the causes. Some mental problems are genetic, some are socially induced. People love saying the latter and then connecting it to their political view to make their side have the high ground and then just pound the other side calling them evil. Instead, do studies to figure out how the financial system, school system, and even things like what people do cause mental health damage. I can't be arsed to look them up right now, but I can tell you the ones I've found-
1.1 Financial system and debt places large amounts of stress on individuals, financial problems are the number 1 reason for failed marriages and stress among adults. Better help for people in debt and stronger rules against predatory finance will help create a healthier society. This also includes long work hours for little money, abusive bosses at the workplace, inflation eating away your income and savings, and abusive management at work
1.2 Neurologically, children are wired to get up late and spend their energy running around. Sending them to school early in the morning and forcing them to sit still in classrooms leads to children who are unhappy. Unhappy children are less tolerant of eachother, and bully eachother more. Greater pressure is put on conforming because they're all incredibly stressed and they do not want to deal with people being different
1.3 Adding on to this, teens especially are just much more vulnerable to stress and in general do not yet have the long term foresight that people at ages 23 and up have
1.4 Repression of all kinds- If someone feels like they are being repressed for something they can not help (Gay, nerd, FOOKIN WHITE MALE, etc), then that leads to large amounts of stress and a feeling of being 'other' to the group. This actively encourages the human brain to see the rest of society not as their home and their group, but as a competing tribe. This makes violence against society and especially groups that they feel are damaging or pushing them out them a lot easier to accept for the brain. This includes divisive politics, if someone spends years hearing that they are evil, the enemy of society, and bad people, then they will have no problem with not belonging to society and doing bad things to it and people in it.

Step 2- Solve the causes
2.1 For the genetic problems, provide screening for as little as possible or even free to make sure everyone knows what they and their children are at risk of. Knowledge is power, and people can find treatment easier that way.
2.2 The previously mentioned debt help and rules against financial predators. Attempt to raise living standards and reduce the financial pressure on people. This is amusingly probably the hardest thing to do because there are people who actively encourage these things for their own benefit, and getting this resolved would mean fighting them
2.3 School system redesign to fit modern knowledge. The school system across the west originated in Prussia to teach literacy to the peasants and factory workers. While it works great for teaching this literacy, it's not intended to be used as the glorified daycare for 10+ years that it is today. But with parents each working one or even two jobs, it's going to stay in use as such. Either solve the financial problem to give parents time to help their children so the pressure is off schools, or completely redesign school using neurological knowledge to encourage actual learning and avoid undue stress. This will likely reduce bullying and school incidents by a lot.
2.4 Politics! Everyone has a problem with politicians. Everyone blames the other side. Have we considered that maybe the system is the problem? For European politics, instead of voting on just a party and then the party deciding 'haha we won, now we're going to go form a government with our arch-enemies and piss away all our talking points', there needs to be a way to vote on government and their plans, rather than just voting for a group and then hope really hard that this group does what they said they'll do. For US politics, consider an alternative vote system where you can rank candidates by preference, so if Trump vs Hillary happens, you can vote Bernie as priority 1, then Libertarian party as 2, and then whoever of the big main candidates as 3. That way, first the votes are counted, and the least popular eliminated. If in this example Bernie loses, your vote goes to Libertarians, rather than just being lost and not counting. This will give you actual choices as opposed to half the population voting Trump because they hate Hillary and the other half voting Hillary because they hate Trump

It's not much, but it would be a start. Of course you can just pour more money into research and into the medical health system, but just throwing money at it doesn't help fix things. Research can help fix things eventually and is absolutely necessary for a true long term solution, and the money will help increase capacity until we get there, but we're going to need to find a way to solve what we've already found to be sources of the bad stuff(tm) in society if we want to really fix the problem

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 9:45 pm**

It mostly avoids the existing support structures and instead I post a load of text I don't expect anyone to read about what brings people to need these services
A great many more things than just what I mentioned causes it, I just picked out the biggest ones

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 pm**

[youtube]CH1Q738UEsQ[/youtube]

Posted: **Tue May 08, 2018 10:52 pm**

Tl;dr version: Society is fucked because nobody gives enough of a shit to fix the problems, they just whack symptoms when they show up and call it good enough

Posted: **Wed May 09, 2018 9:56 pm**

It was always a mess
But what has the orange pres been up to anyway?

Posted: **Wed May 09, 2018 10:39 pm**

The middle east will be fucked as long as the Saudis and Israel keeps deciding US foreign policy. They do not want there to be peace

So whatever happens, expect the middle east to remain fucked until foreign policy changes dramatically

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 12:40 am**

There'll be peace in the Middle East when it stops being profitable for there to not be peace.

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 12:46 am**

says the crusader
how interesting

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 1:30 am**

The profit comes from US neoconservative lobby and interest groups, based off of neoconservative memes, directly to the politicians themselves.

So no, it will never stop being profitable.

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 5:43 am**

The military-industrial complex is a machine that feeds on death. It's a massive, abhorrent Moloch that every once in a while requires a sacrifice to grant its gifts and politicians, either red or blue, are its trusted ministers. The time has come and once again, it must be fed. And it will be.

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 6:11 am**

They figured out a solution to going to war though

Why send your soldiers when you can just supply the guns to ISIS? They'll do the fighting, and you can sell your guns!

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 6:16 am**

DemonFiren wrote:says the crusader
how interesting

the crusades were about protecting a profitable trade route, all the religious stuff was just dressing to sucker people into it

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 6:18 am**

XSI wrote:They figured out a solution to going to war though

Why send your soldiers when you can just supply the guns to ISIS? They'll do the fighting, and you can sell your guns!

It sated the beast for a bit, but the prey has been chewed to the bone, and now it hungers for more.

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 10:37 am**

Politics in a nutshell NON NTR POO POST EDITION

Hey look what CRAAAAZY THING Donald "Hitler" Trump is doing today for whom is also a Russian spy who makes us REALLY ANGRY! Boy do we hate Trump! Something Meuller Probe and smoking gun!

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 10:58 am**

Hush, the grown-ups are talking

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 11:45 am**

I find it amusing that the only response to "Please stop bullshitting us, news networks" is "RUSSIAN EVIL TROLLBOTS!" and fearmongering

Really makes it hard to take any mainstream news serious

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 1:19 pm**

It's really amusing to see US media sucking chinese dick just because they insulted drumpf after he made some retarded tweet.

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 2:17 pm**

excepting the heroic fox news, right?

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 3:13 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:excepting the heroic fox news, right?

I wouldn't be sad if fox stopped existing

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 3:18 pm**

I would be, sad day for comedy.

Posted: **Thu May 10, 2018 3:53 pm**

k keep me posted

/tg/Station 13

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