Ferguson

[Incomptinence]

"Winning hearts and minds" isn't Ferguson majority black so they pretty much have won the hearts and minds by default?

Really political means would work fine for these people if it wasn't for typical American gerrymandering.

[nsos]

So what do you guys think about Eric Garner's death ruling?

surprised but not

[nsos]

like a lot of blame is being thrown at the dead guy for resisting arrest even though there's 0 instance of during the video where they actually inform this dude he's under arrest for selling loose cigarettes that weren't actually found on his body.

the chokehold/takedown/whatever was improperly applied to begin with and resulted in 0 injuries to the throat/neck in the autopsy. people are putting a good amount of fracas on the initial choke when what is more concerning: when 5 cops combined can't put together the brain synapse to think that putting 4 people on a 400 lb man's back and chest and compressing/asphyxiating him just might to be a terrible idea if you're trying to apprehend a person, even before the guy starts mentioning he can't breathe.


oh well nyc's awful not much about my opinion changed before or after this even happened.

[vonharden]

there has been a complete reversal. news media no longer uses blacks as scapegoats. police brutality is reported in such a way that the cop is treated as the criminal. increased police power is indicative of a larger problem, but little white yuppies and social justice warriors can't get over it as a racial thing. nevermind more whites are arrested on average than blacks. maybe you hear less about whites being needlessly brutalized because blacks are statistically more likely to resist arrest, or maybe because American mainstream culture is developing such an anti-white attitude to the point individual whites are meant to feel guilt for the collective actions of their race.

you people really shouldn't worry about more than shitcurity anyway

[leibniz]

nevermind more whites are arrested on average than blacks.

when you adjust it for the population it's 2,9% of the white population and 6,7% of the black population. and these statistics include hispanics in whites.

[vonharden]

I used data incorrectly. The point is, at least I am trying to find underlying issues instead of being drawn in by racist sensationalism.

[Timbrewolf]

People leap to causality just based on stats.

A disproportionate number of blacks getting arrested getting arrested than whites?
Holy shit, must be racist cops.

A disproportionate number of whites being murdered by blacks?
Holy shit must be racist criminals.

Compare the number of blacks killed by whites. There are roughly six times as many whites in the country yet they're responsible for less than half as many murders of blacks as blacks are of whites.
If you want to be the kind of asshole who just makes judgements based on numbers you could pull some shit out of your ass and say if the roles were reversed white people would be extinct.

But that's fucking ridiculous. You can't say that because these are just numbers. They don't tell the story of the situation. Each digit is a whole set of circumstances and people that you don't know jack shit about.
Just because shit happens and you can count it and make comparisons between the frequency of things occurring doesn't mean you know how or why they happen.

Every day of my life I've been alive. If I'm operating under this kind of logic than I have every reason to believe I'm fucking immortal.

[Vekter]

This post was deleted by Vekter on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:42 pm.
Reason: being antagonistic/dramatic, irony, check your PMs.

[ColonicAcid]

People leap to causality just based on stats.

A disproportionate number of blacks getting arrested getting arrested than whites?
Holy shit, must be racist cops.

A disproportionate number of whites being murdered by blacks?
Holy shit must be racist criminals.

Compare the number of blacks killed by whites. There are roughly six times as many whites in the country yet they're responsible for less than half as many murders of blacks as blacks are of whites.
If you want to be the kind of asshole who just makes judgements based on numbers you could pull some shit out of your ass and say if the roles were reversed white people would be extinct.

But that's fucking ridiculous. You can't say that because these are just numbers. They don't tell the story of the situation. Each digit is a whole set of circumstances and people that you don't know jack shit about.
Just because shit happens and you can count it and make comparisons between the frequency of things occurring doesn't mean you know how or why they happen.

Every day of my life I've been alive. If I'm operating under this kind of logic than I have every reason to believe I'm fucking immortal.

Unfortunately this idealistic view doesn't work on a community of millions of people.
Believe it or not, to the government, to the majority, to the system, you, me and everyone else here is a number. Our stories don't matter, laws are set in stone, you pass the line you get arrested. You become a statistic, and since the laws are clear, your story is no longer relevant. Further this by the fact the police get paid according to their statistics and you can see that you as a number don't really matter that much either.
Unfortunately for you Americans, your prisoners are a commodity nowadays. Thank you reaganomics.

[Vekter]

1) If you're going to come to me and tell me how awful of an idea this thread is, don't turn around and shit it up.

2) Ferguson is a race issue because it's a situation where an unarmed black man was killed by an armed white police officer. Mind you, this happens ALL THE TIME and is more often than not discovered to be due to race. It was arguable as whether or not it was actually racially driven for a while, but the way that the Ferguson PD has been handling the matter hasn't helped things. You have to wonder why a grand jury made up of predominately whites (in fact, just enough to get voting majority!) chose not to indict Darrel Wilson DESPITE THE FACT that out of 16,000+ cases last year, only 11 failed to pass the grand jury phase. You're telling me that despite the multitude of conflicting testimonies, they'd still choose to not take him to trial? THEN Wilson just out of the blue resigns? That doesn't sound fishy to you?

E: Should we make this a catch-all for the other police killings/protests going on right now, ie: Eric Garner?

[nsos]

he was going to resign regardless of the decision; his name was anathema in the community. plus he got about 400k in donations from people.

anyway the eric garner situation is particularly- people do themselves a disservice by dismissing it as a race issue. there's a significant issue, particularly in large metropolitan areas, the blue wall of silence is still a thing. darren wilson had plenty of problems aired to his superiors prior to the michael brown shooting. the dude who shot tamir rice was basically called unfit to be a cop by a previous instructor. the handcuffed guy in the backseat of a cop cruiser who managed to 'shoot himself' with his hands cuffed behind his back with a magically procured gun. the name of the 7 year old child that got her face burned in half by getting hit by a flashbang grenade in a no-knock raid (this is a separate incident by the baby in georgia that got hit by a flashbang in its crib a few months ago) evades me but it's also shocking to me that none of the LEOs affiliated or remotely related to this case, the departments in general, ever really came out to say, not even a "hey maybe things in our protocol need to be looked over, if only a little bit."

the NYPD holding a press conference to talk about how betrayed and thrown under the bus they were after the NYC Mayor mentioned some vapid hashtag solidarity with protesters he's going to probably throw in jail later, to me, is just another example of this:


when are police officers in this country going to hold itself to a microcosm of accountability?

it's seriously impressive to me how not a single one of these departments have even been able to say, "hey, maybe we fucked up a little bit, maybe we should look deeper into things like this so it doesn't happen in the future?"

[Vekter]

That would require them to admit that they're wrong, and that would "indicate weakness". Plus there's the whole racism thing.

[cedarbridge]

I ground my teeth walking past a news stand yesterday with a newspaper headline "WHITE SC COP SHOOTS BLACK MAN" Of course, because I'm a privileged, unemployed, savings dwindling white man, I wasn't pissed off that another white pig dared to mar the skin of a probably innocent African American, but rather that the newspaper was so blatantly trying to stir up more race-baited unrest and bullshit over something that would bat zero eyes if writen backwards and should really not be raising special attention as its written already.

As always, the print and news media are faggots and make things worse for everyone.

[miggles]

racially charged violence is how a lot of people make their money

[Timbrewolf]

Unfortunately this idealistic view doesn't work on a community of millions of people.
Believe it or not, to the government, to the majority, to the system, you, me and everyone else here is a number. Our stories don't matter, laws are set in stone, you pass the line you get arrested. You become a statistic, and since the laws are clear, your story is no longer relevant. Further this by the fact the police get paid according to their statistics and you can see that you as a number don't really matter that much either.
Unfortunately for you Americans, your prisoners are a commodity nowadays. Thank you reaganomics.

It totally matters when we're talking about the motivations for why these things happen. That's the whole point of this debate, why are these events happening? Are these all isolated events or is there some larger trend? Some kind of conspiracy or greater failing of the human race?

We could talk about the privatized prison systems but I'd rather save that for another thread. There's a whole other side to the issue that never gets brought up or talked about regarding the cost-saving benefits as well as the potential for alternative rehabilitation methods. I'll put it this way: consider the increased effectiveness private rehab facilities have over government ones when it comes to addiction and social/emotional problems.

Even if private prisons are fucking garbage when it comes to actually rehabilitating criminals...they can't possibly be any worse than our current prisons being a "college for criminals".

[Vekter]

Something to be said for the way Norway does it. We should stop treating prison like a punishment and start treating it as what it's supposed to be - rehabilitation.

[Cipher3]

Something to be said for the way Norway does it. We should stop treating prison like a punishment and start treating it as what it's supposed to be - rehabilitation.

Do you have evidence that works?

[Antonkr]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... baLZjBQo6A

Not the best study done but you can do your own research if you wish. Prison system in US is fucked, though simply adapting a Norwegian system would not work either.
But to tldr my view point
ghettos are still a problem in America. Ever see those statistics brought up (by stormfront idiots mostly) in regards to race and crime commited? The real correlation is the fact that ghettos and shitty schools exist. America has some of the best schools in the world and arguably the best higher education, but on average the school system itself is a joke. We still use the SAT as one of our primary admission to college, which is in my eyes also a big joke. We simply cant ignore the fact that with primary education in inner cities being trash, close to no one can get out of the ghetto or out of the cities. Wellfare, blame it all you want on who you want is one of the causes for lack of action. This is where crime in America comes from. Not from the "hurr niggers do all the crimes durr. " shit conditions and poverty breed crime. Ive stated my view on Ferguson, but the issue of prisons, and the police is not the real root problem that is keeping the crime rates where they are.

[dezzmont]

Something to be said for the way Norway does it. We should stop treating prison like a punishment and start treating it as what it's supposed to be - rehabilitation.

Do you have evidence that works?

There is both a lot of evidence that the Norway system works and the American system doesn't. We have the most prisoners, we create more felons, and we have the highest rates of recidivism. All of these ratios go up, and not down, the harsher we try to make our laws. We have 5% of the population but 25% of the world's prisoners, which is just embarrassing, and our prisoner to population ratios are estimated to be marginally ahead of North Koreas.

Regardless about how you feel about racial violence the idea that the American justice system is a complete and utter joke is completely uncontroversial in academic fields and just creates an enforced criminal underclass. The college metaphor An0n3 gave is pretty apt, though becoming institutionalized and identifying as a criminal is only part of the problem. The main problem is that our felony system does the exact opposite of preventing future offenders because it is politically expedient to correlate being tough on crime with being tough on criminals.

[Maccus]

>Making what's literally intended to be a punishment for criminals into a vacation

Screw that. Nothing's going to stop Anders Breivik short of a bullet if he gets out because the guy's literally insane. Giving him video games and a good hotel room isn't going to fix him.

[Vekter]

Something to be said for the way Norway does it. We should stop treating prison like a punishment and start treating it as what it's supposed to be - rehabilitation.

Do you have evidence that works?

I don't have a specific source, but I do remember hearing that their rate of repeat offense was something ridiculous - like 10%.

[dezzmont]

>Making what's literally intended to be a punishment for criminals into a vacation

Screw that. Nothing's going to stop Anders Breivik short of a bullet if he gets out because the guy's literally insane. Giving him video games and a good hotel room isn't going to fix him.

Except that:

A: We know for a fact that prisons as punishment does not work. Punishment does not deter crime.
B: The methods of punishment we use in America actually INCREASE the intensity and rate of crimes committed by released felons
C: Their model is not in fact a vacation and is instead what amounts to therapy and a vocational program.
D: Their program works because it attacks the actual source of crime, and in fact most crimes committed in Norway are commited by foreigners because Norwegians almost never are repeat offenders because Norway has their shit together.
E: They are not trying to fix Anders Breivik, he is going to be in jail for the rest of his life because no one is saying mass murderers should be treated exactly like people who commit robberies... except penal codes like ours which do.

Something to be said for the way Norway does it. We should stop treating prison like a punishment and start treating it as what it's supposed to be - rehabilitation.

Do you have evidence that works?

I don't have a specific source, but I do remember hearing that their rate of repeat offense was something ridiculous - like 10%.

Norway's crime stats are ridiculous. They are publicly available and speak for themselves.

[Vekter]

>Making what's literally intended to be a punishment for criminals into a vacation

Screw that. Nothing's going to stop Anders Breivik short of a bullet if he gets out because the guy's literally insane. Giving him video games and a good hotel room isn't going to fix him.

No one's saying it should be a vacation. All we're saying is it should be less a hard punishment and more centered around rehabilitation.

[dezzmont]

>Making what's literally intended to be a punishment for criminals into a vacation

Screw that. Nothing's going to stop Anders Breivik short of a bullet if he gets out because the guy's literally insane. Giving him video games and a good hotel room isn't going to fix him.

No one's saying it should be a vacation. All we're saying is it should be less a hard punishment and more centered around rehabilitation.

No one is going on vacation, it is a completely hyperbolic argument that ignores pretty much all of reality, like the fact that even the rehabilitation prisons pretty much are an attempt to emulate the middle class lifestyle or that Anders isn't even at one of those prisons, he is at a maximum security prison for the rest of his life. The main difference is that Norway, like almost any modern country, does not use Super Max prisons because they are legally considered torture, and does not generally use punitive incarceration because that shit is retarded and doesn't work.

[Maccus]

>"No one's going on vacation"
>"He is going to jail for the rest of his life"
>A literal terrorist gets a decent-looking hotel room with video games and a good view

You know what they call that? A vacation.

[dezzmont]

It is still a prison. He has access to recreation, healthcare, and socialization. The rooms, if you have seen them, also are pretty standard.

It doesn't help that under international standards American prisons are classified as torture. I think this may be speaking more to the fact that your standard of living may be low.

It is also important to note many of the amnities they offer are actually very specifically chosen, using science to reduce the formation of gangs and minimize risk to guards, as well as to promote the overall mental health of people who are at the prison for non-life sentences. Stuff like encouraging vocational activity and mental health in prisons is beneficial for an entire society for the same reason that mandatory primary education does: people with basic education and vocational skills are more likely to be happy, economically productive, healthy and thus reduce healthcare costs, and less likely to commit crimes. If you have even googled psychology you know how fucking insane you can make completely people act through even minimally prompting them to believe others consider them sub-human. The Standford Prison experiment was a game changer through most of the world because it caused us to understand how traditional models of incarceration were completely stupid and either broke people in a process that could only be considered torture or made them insanely violent towards their captors and fellow inmates.

Wanting to throw "the bad people" into a dirty solitary confinement cell isn't just a juvenile sense of justice, it is massively expensive. The idea that being completely removed from society and being forced to live in a facility that inarguably restricts your ability to interact with the rest of the world is a 'vacation' is dumb, because, here is the kicker, it costs less to maintain stuff like video game console and sound recording studios than it does to control an extremely violent and rowdy general criminal population like we do in America and encouraging criminals to develop career skills and skills for living independently results in lower rates of repeat offenders. Their entire system is designed to force the inmates to act like civilized middle class human beings rather than emphasizing how they are not people and should feel bad. And the result is they act like civilized middle class human beings and go on to not commit crimes again.

It may feel weird to you, but treating people like human beings and encouraging them to grow tends to make them grow. It also costs way less than the unfurnished cell both in the cost to incarcerate and the cost to society.

If anything it is like a summer camp, the goal isn't to let the inmate relax, it is to keep them as busy and active as possible so that their transition back to life in society is smooth. Guards primarily have the job of motivating inmates to do shit rather than having the job to ignore the formation of criminal gangs that crop up because the prison offers no support to its inmates.

So there is your answer. The prison is designed to maximize how humane it is and ends up working better at reducing crime, correcting criminals, and reducing the risk of criminal behavior in prison. That is why this is this cel, which is smaller than my college dorm room I may add and has the "good view" that is the magical place called "outside", is Ander's room. It isn't because he isn't a vacation, it makes it easier for society to deal with him and is less likely to cause him undue mental harm.

Spoiler:

Inb4 "he deserves mental harm" and we need to talk about how even punitive stances of justice are not about doing shit to people for the sake of doing shit to them.

[Maccus]

He doesn't deserve mental harm, no, he deserves a casket. Dude gunned down children and bombed buildings.

>It may feel weird to you, but treating people like human beings-

Let me stop you there. Maybe this is a good idea for minor felons and the like instead of sending them to pound town, but let's not even pretend Anders Behring Breivik counts as a human being. He's a madman, a childkiller, a literal terrorist, and putting him on the same level as the rest of humanity is akin to putting dog feces on the same level as a sandwich. One's an awful thing nobody should ever want to associate with and should be buried as soon as possible and the other's something people are okay with.

[cedarbridge]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=mamDVIqmKM73yQSQ6oGgDQ&url=http://www.salve.edu/document/incarceration-and-recidivism-lessons-abroad&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE768Hl0pRjRSKbpxWdyOLIjLRERA&sig2=XCtjV0p-gY3gbaLZjBQo6A

Not the best study done but you can do your own research if you wish. Prison system in US is fucked, though simply adapting a Norwegian system would not work either.
But to tldr my view point
ghettos are still a problem in America. Ever see those statistics brought up (by stormfront idiots mostly) in regards to race and crime commited? The real correlation is the fact that ghettos and shitty schools exist. America has some of the best schools in the world and arguably the best higher education, but on average the school system itself is a joke. We still use the SAT as one of our primary admission to college, which is in my eyes also a big joke. We simply cant ignore the fact that with primary education in inner cities being trash, close to no one can get out of the ghetto or out of the cities. Wellfare, blame it all you want on who you want is one of the causes for lack of action. This is where crime in America comes from. Not from the "hurr niggers do all the crimes durr. " shit conditions and poverty breed crime. Ive stated my view on Ferguson, but the issue of prisons, and the police is not the real root problem that is keeping the crime rates where they are.

Except we already tried that. The much vaunted for its time Kansas City Experiment went out of its way to build the latest and greatest inner city school programs it could. And the end result was a zero net change in outcomes or assessments. Eventually its just disingenuous to blame the conditions when its the people and the culture responsible for the decline or maintinence of shit conditions. I mean, its hip to blame "the system" for all of society's ills, but it does nobody any favors to pretend that people don't have a hand in their own conditions.

[Steelpoint]

The United States and Norway are two completely different cultures, what works with group X won't always work with group Y. However, I do agree with the sentiment that people who are jailed need to be treated as proper humans, and need to be viewed as someone to rehabilitate, not someone who needs to be punished or dehumanised.

Last time I checked a American prisoner has over a 60% reincarceration rate. That's a insane number of people that are going straight back to jail once they are out of it.

While a lot of things need to change, you can't expect to just adopt another countries model and expect it to work.

[Malkevin]

Norway is also a a completely different society to the USA.

For starters it still has, for now, a largely homogeneous population.
90% Norwegian
5% European
5% Other

Compared to USA which is only ~60% European

[Incomptinence]

Maccus don't most American states no longer practice death penalty due to it being too expensive (many cost factors including fighting appeals)? Then it takes a decade to do it on average. Death penalty seems to be dying slowly in America.

I can't recall or find anything on Guantanamo Bay inmates having been executed yet, rumblings about plans but I cannot find record of the military commission having anyone executed yet. So while America kills terrorists in combat I don't think the war on terror has resulted in an official execution yet.

How many prisoners being treated like shit is it worth supporting to avoid treating one prisoner decently?

I wonder how much prison debt due to incarceration related fees is super charging the poverty and therefore chance to re-offend of released inmates.

Edit: Oh fuck an american prisoncorp is running prisons in australia. Why do we have to share tumours like devils?

[ColonicAcid]

The United States and Norway are two completely different cultures, what works with group X won't always work with group Y.

No I'm sorry don't give me that. This is the same argument that anti gun-control use as well. The cultures don't mean jack shit. Germany has a far more horrid and violent culture than you Americans could ever imagine and yet they still don't have stupid amounts of gun crime.
The only reason American prisons turned out like this was wholly due to Reagan and his shitty policies, and his sloppy attempts to fix it by privatising the prison system. Let me remind you of the Thirteenth Amendment.

[Steelpoint]

America is more like Australia imo.

If we are on the topic of gun control, well of course that would work. If you look at Australian history (which is not to dissimilar from American history) you'll see that the Australian gun control issue faced somewhat similar circumstances when it was debated and introduced. Yet decades later almost everyone in Aus thinks that gun control worked out for the better, even those that vehemently were against it in the first place.

Australia had very similar levels of gun violence and mass shootings to America. Yet after the gun control legislation went through there has not been a mass shooting ever since.

When I talk about cultural differences between Norway and American, I am talking about simple things like their view on criminals (Punishment versus Rehabilitation) or just the basic parts. At least Aus and the US have a common ancestry.

[Antonkr]

The United States and Norway are two completely different cultures, what works with group X won't always work with group Y.

No I'm sorry don't give me that. This is the same argument that anti gun-control use as well. The cultures don't mean jack shit. Germany has a far more horrid and violent culture than you Americans could ever imagine and yet they still don't have stupid amounts of gun crime.
The only reason American prisons turned out like this was wholly due to Reagan and his shitty policies, and his sloppy attempts to fix it by privatising the prison system. Let me remind you of the Thirteenth Amendment.

No, germany doesn't have the same violent culture that we do. Germany doesn't have the same amount of ghettos, gangbangers, and people raised up in poverty.

Also
>gun control
Won't stir from the argument, but I find it funny how the same libs that complain "ONLY POLICE SHOULD HAVE GUNSSSSS!~!#@@!#!@#" then bitch when the policy are violent and oppressive. Yeah nah fuck you, I won't be giving the government the monopoly on guns.

[XSI]

It totally matters when we're talking about the motivations for why these things happen. That's the whole point of this debate, why are these events happening? Are these all isolated events or is there some larger trend? Some kind of conspiracy or greater failing of the human race?

These things happen because the US police is, as far as I can find, not held to high standards. People go into the police force because they have mental issues, are control freaks, or otherwise are not good people. The ones who actually want to help are by far outnumbered by those who don't.
European police has massive amounts of oversight, and plenty of ways to deal with them going bad. Loads of people are rejected based on attitude and potential problems. Training is harsh and many drop out. Quality is the word used, and that's what they're going for.

Over here, in the Netherlands, a cop shot some minority kid(Apparently 18-21 is still a kid) because he was running away and thought the kid was armed. That was a small shitstorm in the media. But nobody had a chance to cry racism because the entire police force came down on the guy and he is now no longer a cop (Plus he was potentially getting jail time out of it). In addition, training standards for cops have increased and the entire department had been put under a higher gov oversight for a while.

While in the US,
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justi ... -shooting/

Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers

Three passersby sustained direct gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments, according to New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly. All injuries were caused by police, he said Saturday.

How is this acceptable at all?

[ColonicAcid]

Germany doesn't have the same violent culture?
So the history of violence, that happened in their country, unlike your violent "history" which was in the 1860's, means that theirs totally isn't violent? Germany does have a problem with gangs, Antifa and Neo-Nazis plague them just as much as your gangs do. Both of you have problems, blaming it on culture is lazy.

[cedarbridge]

The United States and Norway are two completely different cultures, what works with group X won't always work with group Y.

No I'm sorry don't give me that. This is the same argument that anti gun-control use as well.

There's a reason for that. Because they're right. Shocking to many people, we are not one "global culture" and never will or should become one. With that in mind, a policy written for one culture will not always gain traction with or have a useful affect on another culture. Plugging your ears and saying "nuh uh, these other people I disagree with say that!" is missing the point so hard you might as well just give up shooting.

[Maccus]

Maccus don't most American states no longer practice death penalty due to it being too expensive (many cost factors including fighting appeals)? Then it takes a decade to do it on average. Death penalty seems to be dying slowly in America.

I can't recall or find anything on Guantanamo Bay inmates having been executed yet, rumblings about plans but I cannot find record of the military commission having anyone executed yet. So while America kills terrorists in combat I don't think the war on terror has resulted in an official execution yet.

How many prisoners being treated like shit is it worth supporting to avoid treating one prisoner decently?

I wonder how much prison debt due to incarceration related fees is super charging the poverty and therefore chance to re-offend of released inmates.

Edit: Oh fuck an american prisoncorp is running prisons in australia. Why do we have to share tumours like devils?

The majority of states in the US still practice the death penalty. 64%, to be exact.

Also, not you but I don't feel like scrolling up to quote Claudio but >actually being for gun control
I mean I know you're british or whatever but come on

If we're gonna whip out statistics and flop them on the table http://i.imgur.com/TWPojlI.jpg

[TheWiznard]

not ferguson but the eric garner stuff, this just really makes me disgusted that the people who did this all just have straight faces fuck.

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT66U_Ftdng

[Maccus]

Yeah even I agree the Garner stuff is total BS. No sense in them pulling a Rowdy Roddy Piper chokehold on some dude until he dies and getting away with it.

[ColonicAcid]

I usually don't trust infographics because I could find one who sang a different story but whatever.

[Big Faggot]

live like a thug die like a thug.

[Maccus]

I usually don't trust infographics because I could find one who sang a different story but whatever.

well that's sorta how statistics on the internet work

go to google, find www.i'mright.com, win

[Antonkr]

Germany doesn't have the same violent culture?
So the history of violence, that happened in their country, unlike your violent "history" which was in the 1860's, means that theirs totally isn't violent? Germany does have a problem with gangs, Antifa and Neo-Nazis plague them just as much as your gangs do. Both of you have problems, blaming it on culture is lazy.

That's bullshit. There are more Neo-Nazis in Eastern Europe, and they are under no way comparable to the shit that happens in United States. Do antifa and natsoc groups have regular shoot outs in their desolate ghettos, and in the inner cities? Fuck no, the violence isn't comparable to US.

In terms of the argument about history, that's also a bullshit claim. I am talking about United States as it is now. We have a higher crime rate per capita and I am fairly certain a higher violent crime rate per capita. We can put the blame on guns, or niggers depending on what kind of idiotic background you are from, but the problem lies in the ghettos, the inner cities, wellfare, lack of education, as well as countless other things that are ACTUALLY keeping blacks from advancing within United States. I promise that if we solve these issues, the majority of gun crime, and violent crime will drop like a brick. inb4 school shooting argument.

Oh and for the antigun statistics, most of them account for gun crime, which is largely bullshit as we should be comparing the overall crime rates in general imo

[TheWiznard]

Yeah even I agree the Garner stuff is total BS. No sense in them pulling a Rowdy Roddy Piper chokehold on some dude until he dies and getting away with it.

the guy who did the chokehold even fucking waves at the camera at the end, like man, fuck.

[Snake2512]

In terms of Gun Control and how effective it is:

Never give up yer guns cunts. Liberal shit faces will point out that Australia's homicide rates have been going down since the ban but the homicide rates were going down even BEFORE the gun ban.. Not to mention in a society where you are allowed to defend yourself, of course homicide will be higher since the criminals will be dead.

Oh and for the antigun statistics, most of them account for gun crime, which is largely bullshit as we should be comparing the overall crime rates in general imo

"The number of murder victims peaked in 1999, at 344; the number of manslaughter victims peaked in 2002, at 48." This is from the AIC (Australian Institute of Crimonology) and what do you know our highest murder rates happened 3 years after the gun ban.

Notice how high all the other violent crimes spike after our gun ban. This is also from the AIC.

"At least australia hasn't had any gun massac-" http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/n ... 7067591111
We just had one this year. Never give up yer guns America

[Steelpoint]

Before people misconstrue what you said, there has only been about two shootings in Australia after the Port Arthur Massacre, meaning only two in 18 years since the gun control measures were put in place. Also the 2014 shooting was more of a Murder-Suicide than a massacre.

Here's a more expansive image on homicide rates



What you can see is that homicide rates remained relativity steady if not fluctuating from pre 1993 to around 1999, but from 2000 onwards you can denote a downward trend in homicide rates.

Now this does not necessarily point out that gun control is the cause of lower murder rates, that can also be contributed to better policing powers and enforcement, better processing of prisoners, or other.

I'm not going to babble on for too long, gun control is a highly controversial topic (PM John Howard almost lost Government with the legislation) and both sides of the debate have merit and there are people that can far better argue both sides of it than me.

[Snake2512]

Before people misconstrue what you said, there has only been about two shootings in Australia after the Port Arthur Massacre, meaning only two in 18 years since the gun control measures were put in place. Also the 2014 shooting was more of a Murder-Suicide than a massacre.

Here's a more expansive image on homicide rates



What you can see is that homicide rates remained relativity steady if not fluctuating from pre 1993 to around 1999, but from 2000 onwards you can denote a downward trend in homicide rates.

Now this does not necessarily point out that gun control is the cause of lower murder rates, that can also be contributed to better policing powers and enforcement, better processing of prisoners, or other.

I'm not going to babble on for too long, gun control is a highly controversial topic (PM John Howard almost lost Government with the legislation) and both sides of the debate have merit and there are people that can far better argue both sides of it than me.

You are confusing homicide with murder, as I said before our highest murder rate post 1993 was 3 years after gun control was put in place.

Lets look back


2012: 43
2011: 25
2010: 36
2009: 37
2008: 27
2007: 28
2006: 41
2005: 15
2004: 15
2003: 54
2002: 45
2001: 47
2000: 57
1999: 50
1998: 57
1997: 79
1996: 104
1995: 67
1994: 76
1993: 64
1992: 96
1991: 84
1990: 79
1989: 80
1988: 123

In 1988 the gun homicide rate was 123, the next year it dropped to 80, then 79, then back up to 96 but dropped to 64 in 1993, 1996 being the shooting. However as we see in 1999 gun homicide is relatively low but the murder rate was one of the highest. Here we can clearly see gun control DOES NOT bring down murder rates. As I said in my previous post the amount of gun deaths was already going down. If there is anything we can draw from this is that gun control leads to a increase in violent crime.

[Steelpoint]

Increase in violence? Did I not just point out that people being murdered were going down or did I mistype?

If I look at the average gun deaths for the two time periods (1988 - 1999 versus 2000 - 2012) you can noticed quite a big difference in the average amount of people dying to guns every year. From 2000 to 2012 a average of 36 people die while from 1988 to 1999 a average of 79 people died every year.

Very big difference, not to mention that overall murder has been going down since the 1999 spike.

[Snake2512]

Increase in violence? Did I not just point out that people being murdered were going down or did I mistype?

If I look at the average gun deaths for the two time periods (1988 - 1999 versus 2000 - 2012) you can noticed quite a big difference in the average amount of people dying to guns every year. From 2000 to 2012 a average of 36 people die while from 1988 to 1999 a average of 79 people died every year.

Very big difference, not to mention that overall murder has been going down since the 1999 spike.

Are you thick as a brick mate? Look at the rest of the violent crimes, jesus man i have a table right there for you. Also why are you looking at 1988 to 1999? The gun ban was in '96 so really you want to look at '96 - 2012 for the average deaths before and after gun control, also i know gun deaths was going down but my entire point was that it was ALREADY going down.

Also mate, gun deaths DOES NOT EQUAL MURDER, come on. Back then we were allowed to defend ourselves properly now we can't even hold a gun. You want to explain to me how murder was so high in 1999, years after the gun ban and how assault and kidnapping spiked so high too?

You do realise violent crime doesn't mean JUST homicide, it means everything i posted in the graph above. You cannot sit here and tell me my nation is safer mate, it isn't. We did not need to go from one extreme of having completely uncheck gun ownership to banning it all and not letting us defend ourselves. The shooter at Port Arthur was a legal retard, he should have never been able to get those guns mate but he did due to your dodgy/non-existant laws. Sensible law needs to be put in place, not this crap that has let us be the prey of Bikeys and druggos.

EDIT:

Another thing is that you pointed out people were dying to guns more in the 80s to 90s than in the 90s to 2000s and yeah thats true but that doesn't mean there is less murder and other violent crime thanks to the gun control. Homicide was already going down from the late 80s onward, gun control did not affect this mate, the only thing that could have lowered crime is the police force itself. Firearm ownership and murder have no correlation with each other in this instance.

TL;DR homicide (not just gun homicide) rates going down even before the gun ban.