HOP and AA (Non-binary edition)

[BONERMASTER]

This one is for the smooth brain jannies in policy discussion, that shut Xivi's thread down in a record time of 20 minutes. Maybe when you're older, you can actually start handling your fucking appeals in that speed too.

So, we got the HOP and his funny circus antics of handing out all access to the crew. Some people love it, some hate it. Personally, it always pissed me off, I think it adds so much chaos that the game becomes worse for everyone, and it only further empowers shitters that are already well versed in exploiting the game. But I also hear people bringing up other points like unique rounds and situations, having that right be that freedom that defines so much of SS13 (like blowing up the station with your supermatter setup), and the general bottom line that you cannot be banned or punished for not being good at your job.

We got quite a few opinions on this, and it has been done ever since the game was created. Question is, do we recognize this as a grievance, aka something that is generally harmful to us or the game? And if we do, what would be the fair response to this? I listed a few suggestions in the poll, but you can always bring other possibilities to the table.


PS: Since this is the non binary edition, you get two votes.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

Wow it really was only 20 minutes what the fuck lmao

[Kel]

banning for hop AA because of the potential butterfly effect is an awful ground to make your argument on, considering nobody has ever gotten banned for announcing wires and that is well and truly info almost always used for illicit activities that result in larceny, dismemberment and death. a lot of actions can casually snowball into mass destruction, like healing the wrong person, leaving a door open, talking too much shit... the list goes on. if you play as a MD who without fail will bring back anybody from death, you are practically guaranteed to end up reviving antags, which obviously results in more bad things happening. do you really ban the MD for healing too good, or do you baton his ass for being negligent/uncooperative?

[Malkraz]

The most important thing for an admin to do is sanitize the round to ensure nothing interesting happens
BACK TO YOUR STATIONS

[Mothblocks]

rounds being ruined by aa spread is a code issue that can be easily solved if someone would finish the id rework we already have a doc for

i would rather the code issue be fixed rather than admins feel the need to play darkrp rooftop phys gun superman player model on duty

(this includes me too, the first part)

[BONERMASTER]

How would that ID rework look like? Why couldn't the hop give you access to everything then?

[Mothblocks]

https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HkS-z64NP

[FantasticFwoosh]

Imagine over-engineering a new system to a problem based behaviorally

A) HOS and Command requires a medium RP response doctrine to spiralling out of control situations, its only appropriate and on lower RP it can be chalked down to a more succinct culling of non-complicance given arrangement and further ass-covering preperations. Once the HOP is (preferably) trialled, stripped of rank and detained the ID's are recalled working down the list records until they're all reset.

B) Repeat offenders need to be discouraged, this ban does nothing because the admins are the same meek-geeks who fail to make a impact on the station because it inflicts as much hurt onto them to knock a HOP out for a dayban and get mad that the player didnt listen to them to continue to do it again. Many security players actually quit because greytiders want to be caught and waste your time catching them in the arbitary timing system. Do something different, drag them off cams and beat them into a inch of their life, swirlie them, generally discourage their lack of a parental figure with a good hiding until they learn that your presence threatens what they do.

(edit: hang on, crossed trains of thought) I literally shot out Greytider Emily's kneecaps until they stopped logging on to grief which was the whole of their character (and they removed kneecap shooting, you cowards).

C) Not a single person denied the AA, and said admin could have just played along to chime in as a brassed off centcomm official to make the round more interesting.

[Rohen_Tahir]

Imagine over-engineering a new system to a problem based behaviorally

A) HOS and Command requires a medium RP response doctrine to spiralling out of control situations, its only appropriate and on lower RP it can be chalked down to a more succinct culling of non-complicance given arrangement and further ass-covering preperations. Once the HOP is (preferably) trialled, stripped of rank and detained the ID's are recalled working down the list records until they're all reset.

B) Repeat offenders need to be discouraged, this ban does nothing because the admins are the same meek-geeks who fail to make a impact on the station because it inflicts as much hurt onto them to knock a HOP out for a dayban and get mad that the player didnt listen to them to continue to do it again. Many security players actually quit because greytiders want to be caught and waste your time catching them in the arbitary timing system. Do something different, drag them off cams and beat them into a inch of their life, swirlie them, generally discourage their lack of a parental figure with a good hiding until they learn that your presence threatens what they do.

(edit: hang on, crossed trains of thought) I literally shot out Greytider Emily's kneecaps until they stopped logging on to grief which was the whole of their character (and they removed kneecap shooting, you cowards).

C) Not a single person denied the AA, and said admin could have just played along to chime in as a brassed off centcomm official to make the round more interesting.

Sec players being le funny police brutality THE LAW every round is at least as cancer as tiders mugging people or stealing AA.

[gum disease]

don't like aa randomly being handed out because it usually leads to some non-antag ape detonating borgs for the most frivolous shit, and as a villain borg main, it's annoying.

however, if the hop gives out aa to people who've done things to earn it, like get stamps or w/e, i don't care.
i've seen HoPs put out quests in exchange for aa, like gathering all the different types of clown-suit, etc. it's funny to watch.

if someone's repeatedly giving out aa round after round "just because", it does become a problem because it can shit up rounds.
irresponsible conduct like that would probably lead to me issuing them a headban (if they've already been spoken to about it) or something.
i could only see a server ban being issued if they were still giving out aa as a non-antag in spite of the headban.

[BONERMASTER]

https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HkS-z64NP

This looks really cool, then these would be almost like passports and you'd check them if all the things are correct, aka Papers please. So you'd have all the information that you need to know, and the ID levels and all that fancy stuff keeps it gamey enough so it doesn't turn into pure bureaucracy. And possibly, you'd have something to do as hop for once.


I do sort of agree with fwoosh that the more fundamental problem is the behavior of the people, they do it because they know they won't get punished for it. But I think what plays a big role in that is, that being funny with access right now only takes 1 click. If the process becomes a bit more involved and you have to spend maybe a minute tuning and trimming the card to get to that access level, and it doesn't even hold space to get clearance for the entire station, it could discourage hops and just make them lazy instead. Chances are, they might not even have enough wrinkles to figure this shit out, end up gravitating to other roles, and then you'd be more likely to have hops that don't take it just to hand out AA to everyone they can see.

[TheWiznard]

please don't post ss13 related questions in off topic this is against off topic board rules number 2

[BONERMASTER]

How about I take my baseball bat and start engaging in a destructive analysis of the underlying rules with you?

[Kendrickorium]

as a hop main, just rule zero the people who dont stop doing it all the time after a couple warnings.
hops handing out AA when its not a nuke ops round are literally always dealt with IC
if you dont like it, take AA, implant yourself, make yourself a sec officer and deal with it. that took me all of ten seconds to figure out an IC way of dealing with it.

this is an administration issue not a coding one

[Mothblocks]

https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HkS-z64NP

I do sort of agree with fwoosh that the more fundamental problem is the behavior of the people, they do it because they know they won't get punished for it.

player issues are often design issues in disguise, which

But I think what plays a big role in that is, that being funny with access right now only takes 1 click. If the process becomes a bit more involved and you have to spend maybe a minute tuning and trimming the card to get to that access level, and it doesn't even hold space to get clearance for the entire station, it could discourage hops and just make them lazy instead. Chances are, they might not even have enough wrinkles to figure this shit out, end up gravitating to other roles, and then you'd be more likely to have hops that don't take it just to hand out AA to everyone they can see.

it looks like you agree with ?

[chocolate_bickie]

https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HkS-z64NP

How will Heads if Staff be able to change the 'trims' of IDs, will they get ID painters for their department only?

What should crew do when AA becomes important, e.g. nuke ops?

What are your thoughts on sechuds showing a 'trim' around job symbols with a gold trim for command access?

[oranges]

https://hackmd.io/@tgstation/HkS-z64NP

How will Heads if Staff be able to change the 'trims' of IDs, will they get ID painters for their department only?

What should crew do when AA becomes important, e.g. nuke ops?

What are your thoughts on sechuds showing a 'trim' around job symbols with a gold trim for command access?

Yes

They should go fuck themselves

No

[cacogen]

I voted literally nothing

[TheWiznard]

How about I take my baseball bat and start engaging in a destructive analysis of the underlying rules with you?

ok i love baseball

[BONERMASTER]

How about I take my baseball bat and start engaging in a destructive analysis of the underlying rules with you?

ok i love baseball

Oh, you're about to! I also brought one of my friends, he wants to say hello:

Spoiler:

[cacogen]

*destructive analyses ur bat*