Banned for reading open source code?

[technokek]

Bottom post of the previous page:

[Yenwodyah]

In awe at the amount of coder/admin seethe this man generates by just existing

in awe at the amount of rent free coders living in your head that you consider them to have had anything to do with this ban

[Pandarsenic]

So I took a few examples for comparison, going by the admins.txt, written as
[Fix PRs Opened] since [year] -- [per-year average, round any decimal up]
Obviously there's some jank, since I'm not actually counting 2021 as its existing half of a year. If someone would like to adjust to to account for the half-year not counted, or whatever, feel free, you have all the data necessary, but I cbf because I didn't think about it until the end.

Actioninja: 87 since 2019 -- 44
AnturK: 809(!) since 2014 -- 115
Cyberboss: 786(!) since 2016 -- 158
Denton: 128 since 2018 -- 43
Fikou: 117 since 2019 - 59
MrStonedOne: 261 since 2015 -- 53
NinjaNomNom: 148 since 2017 -- 37
Optimumtact (Oranges): 156 since 2015 -- 26
ShizCalev: 842(!) since 2017 -- 211(!?)

And for good measure, iamgoofball: 115 since 2015 -- 20

Incidentally, I'm pretty happy that I went in alphabetical order down the TXT and the ridiculously high numbers from AnturK, Cyberboxx, and ShizCalev came in escalating per-year fix count. With 3 of them, I hesitate to even call them outlier figures.

So our sorted dataset, for per-year fix PRs, is
211
158
115
59
53
[I couldn't find ATHATH's git name at a glance to verify, but allegedly the 45 goes here]
44
43
37
26

Obviously, this doesn't mean sufficiently prolific coders should get to do Whatever They Want - even ShizCalev would cop a ban for doing something fucky enough.

[MooCow12]

na bro he's WORTHLESS

keep dumping coders into the coal fire

[youtube]4SmfWhhZyDE[/youtube]

[WineAllWine]

I think I disagree with this as a perma, it seems like too much of a jump. I thin Ath should've been given a very serous final warning or like a month ban.

[MooCow12]

Now that I think about it, athath keeping his discord icon as the default would be a much better permaban reason.

[TheFinalPotato]

So I took a few examples for comparison, going by the admins.txt, written as
[Fix PRs Opened] since [year] -- [per-year average, round any decimal up]
Obviously there's some jank, since I'm not actually counting 2021 as its existing half of a year. If someone would like to adjust to to account for the half-year not counted, or whatever, feel free, you have all the data necessary, but I cbf because I didn't think about it until the end.

Actioninja: 87 since 2019 -- 44
AnturK: 809(!) since 2014 -- 115
Cyberboss: 786(!) since 2016 -- 158
Denton: 128 since 2018 -- 43
Fikou: 117 since 2019 - 59
MrStonedOne: 261 since 2015 -- 53
NinjaNomNom: 148 since 2017 -- 37
Optimumtact (Oranges): 156 since 2015 -- 26
ShizCalev: 842(!) since 2017 -- 211(!?)

And for good measure, iamgoofball: 115 since 2015 -- 20

Incidentally, I'm pretty happy that I went in alphabetical order down the TXT and the ridiculously high numbers from AnturK, Cyberboxx, and ShizCalev came in escalating per-year fix count. With 3 of them, I hesitate to even call them outlier figures.

So our sorted dataset, for per-year fix PRs, is
211
158
115
59
53
[I couldn't find ATHATH's git name at a glance to verify, but allegedly the 45 goes here]
44
43
37
26

Obviously, this doesn't mean sufficiently prolific coders should get to do Whatever They Want - even ShizCalev would cop a ban for doing something fucky enough.

Doesn't really mean anything, the separation between codebase and server is absolute
(You may also want to filter those by merged, tho that might be a bit unfair since most maintainer prs end up going through)

[Pandarsenic]

Doesn't really mean anything, the separation between codebase and server is absolute

I'm not sure that can be said to apply, because I pulled these names based on who is called out specifically as a coder by the server's admins.txt

(You may also want to filter those by merged, tho that might be a bit unfair since most maintainer prs end up going through)

I skipped mentioning it, but among all of those, I'm pretty sure less than a dozen were rejected, and most of those were things like one of the A names I searched first doing a dark mode fix that was closed because it was addressed as part of a larger overhaul of dark mode stuff.

[Denton]

na bro he's WORTHLESS

keep dumping coders into the coal fire

ATHATH is free to contribute to the codebase, and people who don't want to deal with his bikeshedding are free to block him
If he stops contributing because he got banned on the servers that's not our issue

[Rohen_Tahir]

If anything, I'm just discouraged by much of the precedent here.

Upgrading a 2 day ban to a permaban is an extreme punishment for a seemingly straightforward case of perspective mismatch.

Didn't post in the thread before it got locked because it's a touchy subject, but man, seeing that I'm on all 3 sides of this debate I'm concerned about how this'll turn out.


Edit: ATH made 90 fix prs in 2 years. By codebase standards, that a rather high bar for "Commiting nothing of value to the codebase".

And 262 issues, including 240 not marked as "not a bug"), 15 describing exploits of various severity and 2 issues marked as high priority.
Edit: This post originally contained incorrect values which I obtained because I accidentally removed is:issue from the search, thanks for pointing this out Arcanemusic.

[Pandarsenic]

I also have some Thoughts I'm going to elaborate on more specifically from each of the named notes...

Spoiler:

2021-03-10 - Named himself "Marth From Super Smash Bros Melee" as a chef to abuse a bug that let CQC grab from long distances. Was warned to not name himself overly OOC names on jobs that don't have a lax naming policy.

Not a warning for the exploit, by the admission of the note itself. Irrelevant to the ban, then? Leaving out personal feelings about whether it was funny.

2020-01-16 - Has been warned not to abuse in game exploits, especially not in order to murderbone, and ESPECIALLY not through TC trades.

Referring to the description...
I believe that this note was made in reference to my demonic deal gimmick, in which I TC traded for a spellbook of Instant Summons and a slaughter demon heart, then marked the slaughter demon heart using Instant Summons. I then went around offering random people this demonic heart in exchange for them performing a minor act of evil/betrayal of their job. The true goal of each of these deals was not to get a victim to do evil things, but rather to trick them into eating the demonic heart, which would replace their own heart with the demonic one and give them the ability to bloodcrawl. After a victim ate the heart and tried to test their ability to bloodcrawl, I'd recall the demonic heart from their chest into my hand while my victim was mid-bloodcrawl, removing their ability to STOP bloodcrawling and forcing them to slowly wither away due to their lack of a heart on the ethereal plane. This is possible because Instant Summons has code that specifically pertains to using that spell to recall a marked organ from someone's body:

Code: Select all

         if(!item_to_retrieve.loc)
            if(isorgan(item_to_retrieve)) // Organs are usually stored in nullspace
               var/obj/item/organ/organ = item_to_retrieve
               if(organ.owner)
                  // If this code ever runs I will be happy
                  log_combat(L, organ.owner, "magically removed [organ.name] from", addition="COMBAT MODE: [uppertext(L.combat_mode)]")
                  organ.Remove(organ.owner)

I would like to draw attention to the comment on the code, which seems to have gone ignored:
// If this code ever runs I will be happy

Not only is this not an exploit, this is something that the code/coder of Instant Summons specifically said they want to happen. This is before we mention how clearly nobody ever murderbones with a TC trade, and "tricking people into RPing out Faustian bargains with fatal costs" is obviously different from murderboning in the sense of running around robusting everyone in sight.

2019-12-23 - Banned from the server for 1 month - [Common] Bob Bobson says, "I have the power to LAG THE STATION AT WILL, GODS" [Common] Bob Bobson says, "NOT UNTIL THE ADMINS GIVE US OUR SANT" | holding the server hostage by lagging it out to get what they want, OOC in IC

18 months ago, absolute dumbass move, but when you consider that this is the most recent note that actually pertains to the subject of exploit abuse...

2019-08-11 04:52:47 - Warned for exploiting the wiz suicide thing: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/14982

2 years ago. Actually an exploit, but a lot of work to do something less effective and far more original than soul-stoning. That said, this one is also unquestionably an exploit, and "it's an exploit but a cool one" still counts, though I am loathe to say this hints at a history of exploiting bugs to make things less fun for others.

Keep in mind, also:
It should be noted that, 2-3 months before I finally rolled wizard and could pull off the gimmick, I tested it to make sure the core concept worked with the help of multiple admins. Nobody (including the witnessing admins and me) fixed or reported the bug during that 2-3 month period, but I made the issue report linked above (only) after successfully pulling it off as a wizard in a dynamic round.

This indicates to me that it was knowing bug exploitation that probably could have been solved long before, had he bothered to actually submit the issue report, since Suicide Wizards were clearly a thing that the coders were trying to prevent.

I personally would be more entertained in the moment by trying to figure out how that happened than by being mind swapped, soulstoned by an apprentice, and made a construct for the dozenth time, but I'm trying to stick to things that are obviously true from what we can see before us and can be generalized to some degree.

2019-5-29 - I know it wasnt malicious but please dont make your name a url via agent card and then ask an AI to orbit you, forcing people to click links is a bad idea and it's a slippery slope with bug abuse and potentially giving people the idea of linking malicious sites at silicons with their name

Bad exploit, do not do it, but also 2 years ago.

So if we look at that timeline, it's...

2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
1.5 years: Actual exploit, do not do.
1.5 years: NOT an exploit.

long awkward silence
3 months ago: Naming note that mentions low-key use of an actual exploit in a way that had no significant round impact.

Just now, banned for...

Spoiler:

• posting about event mapping in #mapping-general instead of #events-bus, which there was literally no way to know existed?
• posting in Twitch chat about the things literally visible right there in front of everyone, speculating on whether or not they could be used in a certain way. For all he knew, maybe that is a way they were meant to be used. Who knows? Raising the possibility and speculating on it was met with a swift mute, about which Domitius had this to say:

  I was aware of your discord ban and from what I understood it was related to leaking event details intentionally. This is relevant in my mind as when I looked over during the mech round I saw you posting ways to exploit ways to complete the challenge or ways to gain a massive advantage. I understand I said "Think outside the box" but it was in context to shifting their work station around though I also understand that confusion.
  
  With all of that on my mind I placed the timeout because I was scared you would start posting further exploits or leaks for later challenges that some may jump on. The duration for the time-out was set low but I apologize for not sending you a message with reason at the time regardless of it's length.
  
  On my part I'm sorry this whole thing spiraled out so far.

• Coconut insists that teleporting the cyborgs at people and exploding them gives an unfair advantage, but I'm still not sure that like... WAS that unintended? Were they just decorations or were they meant to be a possible thing you could use? Why was it worse that ATH asked about it than that anybody else asked about it?

I stand by what I said, even if Fikou and Arm want to cry about me being a "bad faith actor." History-of-X bans without an actual incidence of someone doing X in the moment stink, always have.

[Agux909]

I also have some Thoughts I'm going to elaborate on more specifically from each of the named notes...

Spoiler:

2021-03-10 - Named himself "Marth From Super Smash Bros Melee" as a chef to abuse a bug that let CQC grab from long distances. Was warned to not name himself overly OOC names on jobs that don't have a lax naming policy.

Not a warning for the exploit, by the admission of the note itself. Irrelevant to the ban, then? Leaving out personal feelings about whether it was funny.

2020-01-16 - Has been warned not to abuse in game exploits, especially not in order to murderbone, and ESPECIALLY not through TC trades.

Referring to the description...
I believe that this note was made in reference to my demonic deal gimmick, in which I TC traded for a spellbook of Instant Summons and a slaughter demon heart, then marked the slaughter demon heart using Instant Summons. I then went around offering random people this demonic heart in exchange for them performing a minor act of evil/betrayal of their job. The true goal of each of these deals was not to get a victim to do evil things, but rather to trick them into eating the demonic heart, which would replace their own heart with the demonic one and give them the ability to bloodcrawl. After a victim ate the heart and tried to test their ability to bloodcrawl, I'd recall the demonic heart from their chest into my hand while my victim was mid-bloodcrawl, removing their ability to STOP bloodcrawling and forcing them to slowly wither away due to their lack of a heart on the ethereal plane. This is possible because Instant Summons has code that specifically pertains to using that spell to recall a marked organ from someone's body:

Code: Select all

         if(!item_to_retrieve.loc)
            if(isorgan(item_to_retrieve)) // Organs are usually stored in nullspace
               var/obj/item/organ/organ = item_to_retrieve
               if(organ.owner)
                  // If this code ever runs I will be happy
                  log_combat(L, organ.owner, "magically removed [organ.name] from", addition="COMBAT MODE: [uppertext(L.combat_mode)]")
                  organ.Remove(organ.owner)

I would like to draw attention to the comment on the code, which seems to have gone ignored:
// If this code ever runs I will be happy

Not only is this not an exploit, this is something that the code/coder of Instant Summons specifically said they want to happen. This is before we mention how clearly nobody ever murderbones with a TC trade, and "tricking people into RPing out Faustian bargains with fatal costs" is obviously different from murderboning in the sense of running around robusting everyone in sight.

2019-12-23 - Banned from the server for 1 month - [Common] Bob Bobson says, "I have the power to LAG THE STATION AT WILL, GODS" [Common] Bob Bobson says, "NOT UNTIL THE ADMINS GIVE US OUR SANT" | holding the server hostage by lagging it out to get what they want, OOC in IC

18 months ago, absolute dumbass move, but when you consider that this is the most recent note that actually pertains to the subject of exploit abuse...

2019-08-11 04:52:47 - Warned for exploiting the wiz suicide thing: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/14982

2 years ago. Actually an exploit, but a lot of work to do something less effective and far more original than soul-stoning. That said, this one is also unquestionably an exploit, and "it's an exploit but a cool one" still counts, though I am loathe to say this hints at a history of exploiting bugs to make things less fun for others.

Keep in mind, also:
It should be noted that, 2-3 months before I finally rolled wizard and could pull off the gimmick, I tested it to make sure the core concept worked with the help of multiple admins. Nobody (including the witnessing admins and me) fixed or reported the bug during that 2-3 month period, but I made the issue report linked above (only) after successfully pulling it off as a wizard in a dynamic round.

This indicates to me that it was knowing bug exploitation that probably could have been solved long before, had he bothered to actually submit the issue report, since Suicide Wizards were clearly a thing that the coders were trying to prevent.

I personally would be more entertained in the moment by trying to figure out how that happened than by being mind swapped, soulstoned by an apprentice, and made a construct for the dozenth time, but I'm trying to stick to things that are obviously true from what we can see before us and can be generalized to some degree.

2019-5-29 - I know it wasnt malicious but please dont make your name a url via agent card and then ask an AI to orbit you, forcing people to click links is a bad idea and it's a slippery slope with bug abuse and potentially giving people the idea of linking malicious sites at silicons with their name

Bad exploit, do not do it, but also 2 years ago.

So if we look at that timeline, it's...

2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
1.5 years: Actual exploit, do not do.
1.5 years: NOT an exploit.

long awkward silence
3 months ago: Naming note that mentions low-key use of an actual exploit in a way that had no significant round impact.

Just now, banned for...

Spoiler:

• posting about event mapping in #mapping-general instead of #events-bus, which there was literally no way to know existed?
• posting in Twitch chat about the things literally visible right there in front of everyone, speculating on whether or not they could be used in a certain way. For all he knew, maybe that is a way they were meant to be used. Who knows? Raising the possibility and speculating on it was met with a swift mute, about which Domitius had this to say:

  I was aware of your discord ban and from what I understood it was related to leaking event details intentionally. This is relevant in my mind as when I looked over during the mech round I saw you posting ways to exploit ways to complete the challenge or ways to gain a massive advantage. I understand I said "Think outside the box" but it was in context to shifting their work station around though I also understand that confusion.
  
  With all of that on my mind I placed the timeout because I was scared you would start posting further exploits or leaks for later challenges that some may jump on. The duration for the time-out was set low but I apologize for not sending you a message with reason at the time regardless of it's length.
  
  On my part I'm sorry this whole thing spiraled out so far.

• Coconut insists that teleporting the cyborgs at people and exploding them gives an unfair advantage, but I'm still not sure that like... WAS that unintended? Were they just decorations or were they meant to be a possible thing you could use? Why was it worse that ATH asked about it than that anybody else asked about it?

I stand by what I said, even if Fikou and Arm want to cry about me being a "bad faith actor." History-of-X bans without an actual incidence of someone doing X in the moment stink, always have.

[youtube]CJinWua98NA[/youtube]

[Whoneedspacee]

na bro he's WORTHLESS

keep dumping coders into the coal fire

ATHATH is free to contribute to the codebase, and people who don't want to deal with his bikeshedding are free to block him
If he stops contributing because he got banned on the servers that's not our issue

i mean yeah i was mostly just saying this in response to what oranges said cause its funny to exaggerate

[Whoneedspacee]

I also have some Thoughts I'm going to elaborate on more specifically from each of the named notes...

Spoiler:

2021-03-10 - Named himself "Marth From Super Smash Bros Melee" as a chef to abuse a bug that let CQC grab from long distances. Was warned to not name himself overly OOC names on jobs that don't have a lax naming policy.

Not a warning for the exploit, by the admission of the note itself. Irrelevant to the ban, then? Leaving out personal feelings about whether it was funny.

2020-01-16 - Has been warned not to abuse in game exploits, especially not in order to murderbone, and ESPECIALLY not through TC trades.

Referring to the description...
I believe that this note was made in reference to my demonic deal gimmick, in which I TC traded for a spellbook of Instant Summons and a slaughter demon heart, then marked the slaughter demon heart using Instant Summons. I then went around offering random people this demonic heart in exchange for them performing a minor act of evil/betrayal of their job. The true goal of each of these deals was not to get a victim to do evil things, but rather to trick them into eating the demonic heart, which would replace their own heart with the demonic one and give them the ability to bloodcrawl. After a victim ate the heart and tried to test their ability to bloodcrawl, I'd recall the demonic heart from their chest into my hand while my victim was mid-bloodcrawl, removing their ability to STOP bloodcrawling and forcing them to slowly wither away due to their lack of a heart on the ethereal plane. This is possible because Instant Summons has code that specifically pertains to using that spell to recall a marked organ from someone's body:

Code: Select all

         if(!item_to_retrieve.loc)
            if(isorgan(item_to_retrieve)) // Organs are usually stored in nullspace
               var/obj/item/organ/organ = item_to_retrieve
               if(organ.owner)
                  // If this code ever runs I will be happy
                  log_combat(L, organ.owner, "magically removed [organ.name] from", addition="COMBAT MODE: [uppertext(L.combat_mode)]")
                  organ.Remove(organ.owner)

I would like to draw attention to the comment on the code, which seems to have gone ignored:
// If this code ever runs I will be happy

Not only is this not an exploit, this is something that the code/coder of Instant Summons specifically said they want to happen. This is before we mention how clearly nobody ever murderbones with a TC trade, and "tricking people into RPing out Faustian bargains with fatal costs" is obviously different from murderboning in the sense of running around robusting everyone in sight.

2019-12-23 - Banned from the server for 1 month - [Common] Bob Bobson says, "I have the power to LAG THE STATION AT WILL, GODS" [Common] Bob Bobson says, "NOT UNTIL THE ADMINS GIVE US OUR SANT" | holding the server hostage by lagging it out to get what they want, OOC in IC

18 months ago, absolute dumbass move, but when you consider that this is the most recent note that actually pertains to the subject of exploit abuse...

2019-08-11 04:52:47 - Warned for exploiting the wiz suicide thing: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/14982

2 years ago. Actually an exploit, but a lot of work to do something less effective and far more original than soul-stoning. That said, this one is also unquestionably an exploit, and "it's an exploit but a cool one" still counts, though I am loathe to say this hints at a history of exploiting bugs to make things less fun for others.

Keep in mind, also:
It should be noted that, 2-3 months before I finally rolled wizard and could pull off the gimmick, I tested it to make sure the core concept worked with the help of multiple admins. Nobody (including the witnessing admins and me) fixed or reported the bug during that 2-3 month period, but I made the issue report linked above (only) after successfully pulling it off as a wizard in a dynamic round.

This indicates to me that it was knowing bug exploitation that probably could have been solved long before, had he bothered to actually submit the issue report, since Suicide Wizards were clearly a thing that the coders were trying to prevent.

I personally would be more entertained in the moment by trying to figure out how that happened than by being mind swapped, soulstoned by an apprentice, and made a construct for the dozenth time, but I'm trying to stick to things that are obviously true from what we can see before us and can be generalized to some degree.

2019-5-29 - I know it wasnt malicious but please dont make your name a url via agent card and then ask an AI to orbit you, forcing people to click links is a bad idea and it's a slippery slope with bug abuse and potentially giving people the idea of linking malicious sites at silicons with their name

Bad exploit, do not do it, but also 2 years ago.

So if we look at that timeline, it's...

2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
1.5 years: Actual exploit, do not do.
1.5 years: NOT an exploit.

long awkward silence
3 months ago: Naming note that mentions low-key use of an actual exploit in a way that had no significant round impact.

Just now, banned for...

Spoiler:

• posting about event mapping in #mapping-general instead of #events-bus, which there was literally no way to know existed?
• posting in Twitch chat about the things literally visible right there in front of everyone, speculating on whether or not they could be used in a certain way. For all he knew, maybe that is a way they were meant to be used. Who knows? Raising the possibility and speculating on it was met with a swift mute, about which Domitius had this to say:

  I was aware of your discord ban and from what I understood it was related to leaking event details intentionally. This is relevant in my mind as when I looked over during the mech round I saw you posting ways to exploit ways to complete the challenge or ways to gain a massive advantage. I understand I said "Think outside the box" but it was in context to shifting their work station around though I also understand that confusion.
  
  With all of that on my mind I placed the timeout because I was scared you would start posting further exploits or leaks for later challenges that some may jump on. The duration for the time-out was set low but I apologize for not sending you a message with reason at the time regardless of it's length.
  
  On my part I'm sorry this whole thing spiraled out so far.

• Coconut insists that teleporting the cyborgs at people and exploding them gives an unfair advantage, but I'm still not sure that like... WAS that unintended? Were they just decorations or were they meant to be a possible thing you could use? Why was it worse that ATH asked about it than that anybody else asked about it?

I stand by what I said, even if Fikou and Arm want to cry about me being a "bad faith actor." History-of-X bans without an actual incidence of someone doing X in the moment stink, always have.

stop acting in bad faith

I also have some Thoughts I'm going to elaborate on more specifically from each of the named notes...

Spoiler:

2021-03-10 - Named himself "Marth From Super Smash Bros Melee" as a chef to abuse a bug that let CQC grab from long distances. Was warned to not name himself overly OOC names on jobs that don't have a lax naming policy.

Not a warning for the exploit, by the admission of the note itself. Irrelevant to the ban, then? Leaving out personal feelings about whether it was funny.

2020-01-16 - Has been warned not to abuse in game exploits, especially not in order to murderbone, and ESPECIALLY not through TC trades.

Referring to the description...
I believe that this note was made in reference to my demonic deal gimmick, in which I TC traded for a spellbook of Instant Summons and a slaughter demon heart, then marked the slaughter demon heart using Instant Summons. I then went around offering random people this demonic heart in exchange for them performing a minor act of evil/betrayal of their job. The true goal of each of these deals was not to get a victim to do evil things, but rather to trick them into eating the demonic heart, which would replace their own heart with the demonic one and give them the ability to bloodcrawl. After a victim ate the heart and tried to test their ability to bloodcrawl, I'd recall the demonic heart from their chest into my hand while my victim was mid-bloodcrawl, removing their ability to STOP bloodcrawling and forcing them to slowly wither away due to their lack of a heart on the ethereal plane. This is possible because Instant Summons has code that specifically pertains to using that spell to recall a marked organ from someone's body:

Code: Select all

         if(!item_to_retrieve.loc)
            if(isorgan(item_to_retrieve)) // Organs are usually stored in nullspace
               var/obj/item/organ/organ = item_to_retrieve
               if(organ.owner)
                  // If this code ever runs I will be happy
                  log_combat(L, organ.owner, "magically removed [organ.name] from", addition="COMBAT MODE: [uppertext(L.combat_mode)]")
                  organ.Remove(organ.owner)

I would like to draw attention to the comment on the code, which seems to have gone ignored:
// If this code ever runs I will be happy

Not only is this not an exploit, this is something that the code/coder of Instant Summons specifically said they want to happen. This is before we mention how clearly nobody ever murderbones with a TC trade, and "tricking people into RPing out Faustian bargains with fatal costs" is obviously different from murderboning in the sense of running around robusting everyone in sight.

2019-12-23 - Banned from the server for 1 month - [Common] Bob Bobson says, "I have the power to LAG THE STATION AT WILL, GODS" [Common] Bob Bobson says, "NOT UNTIL THE ADMINS GIVE US OUR SANT" | holding the server hostage by lagging it out to get what they want, OOC in IC

18 months ago, absolute dumbass move, but when you consider that this is the most recent note that actually pertains to the subject of exploit abuse...

2019-08-11 04:52:47 - Warned for exploiting the wiz suicide thing: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/14982

2 years ago. Actually an exploit, but a lot of work to do something less effective and far more original than soul-stoning. That said, this one is also unquestionably an exploit, and "it's an exploit but a cool one" still counts, though I am loathe to say this hints at a history of exploiting bugs to make things less fun for others.

Keep in mind, also:
It should be noted that, 2-3 months before I finally rolled wizard and could pull off the gimmick, I tested it to make sure the core concept worked with the help of multiple admins. Nobody (including the witnessing admins and me) fixed or reported the bug during that 2-3 month period, but I made the issue report linked above (only) after successfully pulling it off as a wizard in a dynamic round.

This indicates to me that it was knowing bug exploitation that probably could have been solved long before, had he bothered to actually submit the issue report, since Suicide Wizards were clearly a thing that the coders were trying to prevent.

I personally would be more entertained in the moment by trying to figure out how that happened than by being mind swapped, soulstoned by an apprentice, and made a construct for the dozenth time, but I'm trying to stick to things that are obviously true from what we can see before us and can be generalized to some degree.

2019-5-29 - I know it wasnt malicious but please dont make your name a url via agent card and then ask an AI to orbit you, forcing people to click links is a bad idea and it's a slippery slope with bug abuse and potentially giving people the idea of linking malicious sites at silicons with their name

Bad exploit, do not do it, but also 2 years ago.

So if we look at that timeline, it's...

2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
2 years: Actual exploit, do not do
1.5 years: Actual exploit, do not do.
1.5 years: NOT an exploit.

long awkward silence
3 months ago: Naming note that mentions low-key use of an actual exploit in a way that had no significant round impact.

Just now, banned for...

Spoiler:

• posting about event mapping in #mapping-general instead of #events-bus, which there was literally no way to know existed?
• posting in Twitch chat about the things literally visible right there in front of everyone, speculating on whether or not they could be used in a certain way. For all he knew, maybe that is a way they were meant to be used. Who knows? Raising the possibility and speculating on it was met with a swift mute, about which Domitius had this to say:

  I was aware of your discord ban and from what I understood it was related to leaking event details intentionally. This is relevant in my mind as when I looked over during the mech round I saw you posting ways to exploit ways to complete the challenge or ways to gain a massive advantage. I understand I said "Think outside the box" but it was in context to shifting their work station around though I also understand that confusion.
  
  With all of that on my mind I placed the timeout because I was scared you would start posting further exploits or leaks for later challenges that some may jump on. The duration for the time-out was set low but I apologize for not sending you a message with reason at the time regardless of it's length.
  
  On my part I'm sorry this whole thing spiraled out so far.

• Coconut insists that teleporting the cyborgs at people and exploding them gives an unfair advantage, but I'm still not sure that like... WAS that unintended? Were they just decorations or were they meant to be a possible thing you could use? Why was it worse that ATH asked about it than that anybody else asked about it?

I stand by what I said, even if Fikou and Arm want to cry about me being a "bad faith actor." History-of-X bans without an actual incidence of someone doing X in the moment stink, always have.

[youtube]CJinWua98NA[/youtube]

Yo it really do be like that dont it.

[WineAllWine]

page 7 and this thread isnt slowing down....damn

[legality]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=29365

after reading this appeal i can tell that the headmin role just isnt for coconut

It’s extremely embarrassing

[Arcanemusic]

If anything, I'm just discouraged by much of the precedent here.

Upgrading a 2 day ban to a permaban is an extreme punishment for a seemingly straightforward case of perspective mismatch.

Didn't post in the thread before it got locked because it's a touchy subject, but man, seeing that I'm on all 3 sides of this debate I'm concerned about how this'll turn out.


Edit: ATH made 90 fix prs in 2 years. By codebase standards, that a rather high bar for "Commiting nothing of value to the codebase".

And 531 issues, including 509 not marked as "not a bug"), 15 describing exploits of various severity and 2 issues marked as high priority.

Or you could use the real numbers instead.

[CoffeeDragon16]

STOP THE STEAL!

[bastardblaster]

What the fuck happened here

[Rohen_Tahir]

If anything, I'm just discouraged by much of the precedent here.

Upgrading a 2 day ban to a permaban is an extreme punishment for a seemingly straightforward case of perspective mismatch.

Didn't post in the thread before it got locked because it's a touchy subject, but man, seeing that I'm on all 3 sides of this debate I'm concerned about how this'll turn out.


Edit: ATH made 90 fix prs in 2 years. By codebase standards, that a rather high bar for "Commiting nothing of value to the codebase".

And 531 issues, including 509 not marked as "not a bug"), 15 describing exploits of various severity and 2 issues marked as high priority.

Or you could use the real numbers instead.

As it turns out I seem to have accidentally removed is:issue from the search. Post is fixed now.

[Rohen_Tahir]

What the fuck happened here

I am triple posting.

[Pandarsenic]

My second life fursona reacting to this news

Those truly are words in an order

[Fishimun]

(redacted)
My second life fursona reacting to this news

go take your pills

[EOBGames]

So I took a few examples for comparison, going by the admins.txt, written as
[Fix PRs Opened] since [year] -- [per-year average, round any decimal up]
Obviously there's some jank, since I'm not actually counting 2021 as its existing half of a year. If someone would like to adjust to to account for the half-year not counted, or whatever, feel free, you have all the data necessary, but I cbf because I didn't think about it until the end.

Actioninja: 87 since 2019 -- 44
AnturK: 809(!) since 2014 -- 115
Cyberboss: 786(!) since 2016 -- 158
Denton: 128 since 2018 -- 43
Fikou: 117 since 2019 - 59
MrStonedOne: 261 since 2015 -- 53
NinjaNomNom: 148 since 2017 -- 37
Optimumtact (Oranges): 156 since 2015 -- 26
ShizCalev: 842(!) since 2017 -- 211(!?)

And for good measure, iamgoofball: 115 since 2015 -- 20

Incidentally, I'm pretty happy that I went in alphabetical order down the TXT and the ridiculously high numbers from AnturK, Cyberboxx, and ShizCalev came in escalating per-year fix count. With 3 of them, I hesitate to even call them outlier figures.

So our sorted dataset, for per-year fix PRs, is
211
158
115
59
53
[I couldn't find ATHATH's git name at a glance to verify, but allegedly the 45 goes here]
44
43
37
26

Obviously, this doesn't mean sufficiently prolific coders should get to do Whatever They Want - even ShizCalev would cop a ban for doing something fucky enough.

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

[Autismal]

do wasps or whatever that is even have fur

like mammals are furries and reptiles are scalies what the fuck do you call bugs

they do have fur

[Autismal]

feel like I need to bleach my eyes after seeing that cringe and the wasp so have a bumble bee to offset both

[HiKewne]

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Someone has to do the work the highschool teachers failed at: teaching people proper grammar
And I for one would rather not have my eyes bleed than having a workable system, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER
YOU CANNOT HAVE A NICE HOUSE WHEN IT'S FILLED WITH GARBAGE
A NICE CAR WHEN IT'S COVERED IN MUD
OR A NICE GAME
WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE IN AN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY

This man has been doing literally the janitorial job not even the JANITORS wanted to do. And I'm not going to just sit here and TAKE IT.

In ALL of his PRs he's done GOD'S WORK
And I don't appreciate you even implying that somehow all his efforts were meaningless.

[cSeal]

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Someone has to do the work the highschool teachers failed at: teaching people proper grammar
And I for one would rather not have my eyes bleed than having a workable system, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER
YOU CANNOT HAVE A NICE HOUSE WHEN IT'S FILLED WITH GARBAGE
A NICE CAR WHEN IT'S COVERED IN MUD
OR A NICE GAME
WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE IN AN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY

This man has been doing literally the janitorial job not even the JANITORS wanted to do. And I'm not going to just sit here and TAKE IT.

In ALL of his PRs he's done GOD'S WORK
And I don't appreciate you even implying that somehow all his efforts were meaningless.

larp

[ATHATH]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 83#p605283

[EOBGames]

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Someone has to do the work the highschool teachers failed at: teaching people proper grammar
And I for one would rather not have my eyes bleed than having a workable system, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER
YOU CANNOT HAVE A NICE HOUSE WHEN IT'S FILLED WITH GARBAGE
A NICE CAR WHEN IT'S COVERED IN MUD
OR A NICE GAME
WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE IN AN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY

This man has been doing literally the janitorial job not even the JANITORS wanted to do. And I'm not going to just sit here and TAKE IT.

In ALL of his PRs he's done GOD'S WORK
And I don't appreciate you even implying that somehow all his efforts were meaningless.

I can't tell if you didn't actually read what I said or are exaggerating for comedic effect, so to be on the safe side I'll clarify.

I said specifically that I didn't want to personally pass judgement on any of the individual contributors mentioned. Of course grammar fixes are important- but they require considerably less effort than major revamps or refactors, and I can assure you that issues which cause severe lag, or crashes, or whatever, are far more pressing than incorrect spelling or slightly dodgy wording. For all I know (or care) every one of Athath's PRs could have been extremely difficult work. My point was that simply sitting and counting PRs is a meaningless indicator of the work someone puts into the codebase, since what is really important to consider is the quality of those fixes. That's all.

[Pandarsenic]

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Someone has to do the work the highschool teachers failed at: teaching people proper grammar
And I for one would rather not have my eyes bleed than having a workable system, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER
YOU CANNOT HAVE A NICE HOUSE WHEN IT'S FILLED WITH GARBAGE
A NICE CAR WHEN IT'S COVERED IN MUD
OR A NICE GAME
WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE IN AN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY

This man has been doing literally the janitorial job not even the JANITORS wanted to do. And I'm not going to just sit here and TAKE IT.

In ALL of his PRs he's done GOD'S WORK
And I don't appreciate you even implying that somehow all his efforts were meaningless.

I can't tell if you didn't actually read what I said or are exaggerating for comedic effect, so to be on the safe side I'll clarify.

I said specifically that I didn't want to personally pass judgement on any of the individual contributors mentioned. Of course grammar fixes are important- but they require considerably less effort than major revamps or refactors, and I can assure you that issues which cause severe lag, or crashes, or whatever, are far more pressing than incorrect spelling or slightly dodgy wording. For all I know (or care) every one of Athath's PRs could have been extremely difficult work. My point was that simply sitting and counting PRs is a meaningless indicator of the work someone puts into the codebase, since what is really important to consider is the quality of those fixes. That's all.

Yeah, I'd hoped I wouldn't have to put a disclaimer or anything, but my thing is purely an at-a-glance comparison. It makes no accounts for how, for example, ShizCalev got to averaging more than one Fix PR every 2 days, because I ain't reading all that.

It isn't meant to be taken as speaking on the value of anyone's contributions, catching bugs before they go live, design work, etc.

[HiKewne]

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Someone has to do the work the highschool teachers failed at: teaching people proper grammar
And I for one would rather not have my eyes bleed than having a workable system, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER
YOU CANNOT HAVE A NICE HOUSE WHEN IT'S FILLED WITH GARBAGE
A NICE CAR WHEN IT'S COVERED IN MUD
OR A NICE GAME
WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE IN AN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY

This man has been doing literally the janitorial job not even the JANITORS wanted to do. And I'm not going to just sit here and TAKE IT.

In ALL of his PRs he's done GOD'S WORK
And I don't appreciate you even implying that somehow all his efforts were meaningless.

I can't tell if you didn't actually read what I said or are exaggerating for comedic effect, so to be on the safe side I'll clarify.

I said specifically that I didn't want to personally pass judgement on any of the individual contributors mentioned. Of course grammar fixes are important- but they require considerably less effort than major revamps or refactors, and I can assure you that issues which cause severe lag, or crashes, or whatever, are far more pressing than incorrect spelling or slightly dodgy wording. For all I know (or care) every one of Athath's PRs could have been extremely difficult work. My point was that simply sitting and counting PRs is a meaningless indicator of the work someone puts into the codebase, since what is really important to consider is the quality of those fixes. That's all.

I was just exagerating because I barely use the forum and I saw you can change the size of words so i decided to use it for commedic effect
man we do live in a society, I can't imagine dealing with people like that in a daily basis to the point it's hard to tell when someone's joking

[Jonathan Gupta]

The issue with this is that it makes no provisions for quality: a single line grammar fix is counted as 1 for this total in the same way a fundamental rewrite of a non-functional system is. I'm not going to pass any judgement on the fixes made by any of the mentioned parties, but just counting PRs doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Someone has to do the work the highschool teachers failed at: teaching people proper grammar
And I for one would rather not have my eyes bleed than having a workable system, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER
YOU CANNOT HAVE A NICE HOUSE WHEN IT'S FILLED WITH GARBAGE
A NICE CAR WHEN IT'S COVERED IN MUD
OR A NICE GAME
WHEN IT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS MADE IN AN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY

This man has been doing literally the janitorial job not even the JANITORS wanted to do. And I'm not going to just sit here and TAKE IT.

In ALL of his PRs he's done GOD'S WORK
And I don't appreciate you even implying that somehow all his efforts were meaningless.

I can't tell if you didn't actually read what I said or are exaggerating for comedic effect, so to be on the safe side I'll clarify.

I said specifically that I didn't want to personally pass judgement on any of the individual contributors mentioned. Of course grammar fixes are important- but they require considerably less effort than major revamps or refactors, and I can assure you that issues which cause severe lag, or crashes, or whatever, are far more pressing than incorrect spelling or slightly dodgy wording. For all I know (or care) every one of Athath's PRs could have been extremely difficult work. My point was that simply sitting and counting PRs is a meaningless indicator of the work someone puts into the codebase, since what is really important to consider is the quality of those fixes. That's all.

I was just exagerating because I barely use the forum and I saw you can change the size of words so i decided to use it for commedic effect
man we do live in a society, I can't imagine dealing with people like that in a daily basis to the point it's hard to tell when someone's joking

most of us are autistic, we can't tell other peoples emotions(some of us it is a spectrum).

[oranges]

na bro he's WORTHLESS

keep dumping coders into the coal fire

ATHATH is free to contribute to the codebase, and people who don't want to deal with his bikeshedding are free to block him
If he stops contributing because he got banned on the servers that's not our issue

no you don't understand bro we are literally behind everything

[PKPenguin321]

Thread is beyond saving, second thread has been made, just go there I'm sure you can find it