/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:46 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 65#p605159

This is in response to the above post. I'm making a new thread for this instead of another post in the peanut thread that technokek made (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29360) because this is an important post that I want our headmins to see and technokek's peanut thread derailed into like 5 straight pages of shitposting with obnoxiously large images and quote pyramids after the first 2 pages of actual on-topic discussion. Never change, forumposters, never change.

After asking around a bit, I've learned that the #events-general channel does exist, but it's a private channel, which explains why I didn't see it and just assumed that #mapping-general covered event-related things as well. Could you please explain to me how I was supposed to post in (or even know about the existence of) a private channel that I didn't have access to?

The teams ended up beating the shit out of each other with baseball bats and welderbombings, but you're telling me that detonating cyborgs using a ROBOTICS console in the ROBOTICS challenge would have crossed the line?

I wasn't appealing those notes, I was giving further context to them, since YOU cited them as a source.

"I've sentenced Bob to 10 years of jail time for jaywalker. This imprisonment has been due for a long time, as Bob is a criminal menace to society with a long series of offenses. For example, this newspaper article says that he punched Alice in the face!"
"Actually, that article fails to mention that that punch was thrown during a boxing match between Bob and Alice."
"This isn't the time to discuss whether or not that article was misleading, we're here to determine if Bob should be let out on parole despite being a dirty, no-good facepuncher."

Both teams had equal access to Twitch chat, though??? How was it giving one team an unfair advantage over the other?

Even if only one team could read Twitch chat for some reason, is shouting advice from the sidelines ("Go for the eyes!") cheating, assuming that the advice you're giving isn't based on information that the competitor you're advising isn't supposed to have access to ("Psst, your opponent's hand is X.")?

And how does this relate to "leaking" code information about the game show in a channel that I believed was currently dedicated towards the behind-the-scenes development of the game show?

Okay, fuck you, that's a cheap move. You know it, I know it, we all know it. It is becoming very, very hard to continue to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not pursuing some sort of personal vendetta against me. I was originally going to just lie down, accept whatever came of this appeal as a judgement of my effect on the community, and move on, but this bullshit has persuaded me to seriously fight this ban.

Regardless of whether or not I am or am not a detriment to this community, this incident is nowhere near a severe enough crime to warrant a permaban, or even a 2 day ban. I might decide to leave even if this appeal is successful, but if I do, I will be leaving on MY terms, not yours. If I truly am the bad actor you claim that I am, I'll inevitably end up doing something that's actually ban-worthy at some point in the future, and you can get me then.

Also, after thinking over some stuff, including past conversations I've had with mappers, I hereby pledge to never codedive an event PR or an event repo ever again. I personally don't consider breaking a map or a feature to be an insult to the work of the person who created it, but I understand and respect that other people may see it differently and I don't want our event coding and mapping teams to continue to feel obligated to tiderproof all of their work because of me or others like me.

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:56 pm**

Agux909 wrote:Damn. Even the very event organizer didn't/doesn't take issue with the secrecy of the whole thing. And more than players being able to exploit stuff to their advantage they were worried about having enough people contributing and the event as a whole being held together to the end. Fascinating.

I wonder where this whole "ruining the event" idea even came from. As posts keep piling up it looks more and more evidently like something pulled out from an ass to justify a ruling. I mean, for if it wasn't clear enough already from the previous thread, lol.

you misunderstand me, it's less about saying "we don't care about secrecy" and it's more "we found it difficult to care about secrecy." I think it's ultimately a concern and I understand the reason for why the ban was done. But I just want people to understand that we made those choices for a reason: whether or not a player did a rule 1 or rule 0 offense is not for me to determine and I don't particularly have an opinion on it.

The only thing I actively care about is eventsbus reputation and defending the choices we made.

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:59 pm**

CitrusGender wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Damn. Even the very event organizer didn't/doesn't take issue with the secrecy of the whole thing. And more than players being able to exploit stuff to their advantage they were worried about having enough people contributing and the event as a whole being held together to the end. Fascinating.

I wonder where this whole "ruining the event" idea even came from. As posts keep piling up it looks more and more evidently like something pulled out from an ass to justify a ruling. I mean, for if it wasn't clear enough already from the previous thread, lol.
you misunderstand me, it's less about saying "we don't care about secrecy" and it's more "we found it difficult to care about secrecy." I think it's ultimately a concern and I understand the reason for why the ban was done. But I just want people to understand that we made those choices for a reason: whether or not a player did a rule 1 or rule 0 offense is not for me to determine and I don't particularly have an opinion on it.

The only thing I actively care about is eventsbus reputation and defending the choices we made.

It's still a permanent ban, where no rules were broken at the time of the ban.

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:22 pm**

Agux909 wrote:
CitrusGender wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Damn. Even the very event organizer didn't/doesn't take issue with the secrecy of the whole thing. And more than players being able to exploit stuff to their advantage they were worried about having enough people contributing and the event as a whole being held together to the end. Fascinating.

I wonder where this whole "ruining the event" idea even came from. As posts keep piling up it looks more and more evidently like something pulled out from an ass to justify a ruling. I mean, for if it wasn't clear enough already from the previous thread, lol.
you misunderstand me, it's less about saying "we don't care about secrecy" and it's more "we found it difficult to care about secrecy." I think it's ultimately a concern and I understand the reason for why the ban was done. But I just want people to understand that we made those choices for a reason: whether or not a player did a rule 1 or rule 0 offense is not for me to determine and I don't particularly have an opinion on it.

The only thing I actively care about is eventsbus reputation and defending the choices we made.
It's still a permanent ban, where no rules were broken at the time of the ban.

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:33 pm**

Rohen_Tahir wrote:
Agux909 wrote:
CitrusGender wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Damn. Even the very event organizer didn't/doesn't take issue with the secrecy of the whole thing. And more than players being able to exploit stuff to their advantage they were worried about having enough people contributing and the event as a whole being held together to the end. Fascinating.

I wonder where this whole "ruining the event" idea even came from. As posts keep piling up it looks more and more evidently like something pulled out from an ass to justify a ruling. I mean, for if it wasn't clear enough already from the previous thread, lol.
you misunderstand me, it's less about saying "we don't care about secrecy" and it's more "we found it difficult to care about secrecy." I think it's ultimately a concern and I understand the reason for why the ban was done. But I just want people to understand that we made those choices for a reason: whether or not a player did a rule 1 or rule 0 offense is not for me to determine and I don't particularly have an opinion on it.

The only thing I actively care about is eventsbus reputation and defending the choices we made.
It's still a permanent ban, where no rules were broken at the time of the ban.
Do you have reading comprehension issues?

Was gonna add this to my post but you were quicker.

I'm not questioning Citrus neutrality nor their goals and intentions for the event. That's not what this thread is about after all.

What I meant with the post they quoted is that if the event organizer, somehow doesn't even have any of these "event ruining" shenanigans in the periphery of their attention, or as a priority, the reasoning for such severe ruling starts falling apart quick. Add to this the premature ban appeal lock. It's not hard to conclude these were done in bad faith, regardless of their neutrality on the subject (which again, I wasn't actually putting into question)

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:11 pm**

The event runner doesn’t put secrecy at the forefront because he is expecting everyone to not spoil the fun for others while he’s juggling more pressing issues like making sure the event runs in the first place.

I only understand the ban in the context that they could have been banned beforehand for some of the shenanigans they pulled but the banning admin chose not to for whatever reason, I don’t understand why this is the final straw and it’s not even his fault (you can’t expect him to know about event bus when you hide the channel).

I would have been more keen to like the ban had they just at the time of some of other ATH’s shenanigans when they were likely a headmin as well to overrule for a more permanent length. Why they chose to put their foot down now over this nothingness makes no sense to me unless they’ve been looking to ban him all this time but was getting pushback from the other 2 headmins.

Again, the likely bet is he gets unbanned and now it’s a pita to ban him because there’s this stigma there’s admins out to get him (see goof)

Posted: **Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:52 pm**

zxaber wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:It's really telling that the only people defending him are folks who have never had to interact with him from any position of authority, be it as the person who PR'd, the person who mapped it, a maintainer, an admin or a headmin.
Alright. I've interacted with Ath in both the coding side and also the administration side. I think the permaban was dumb. Ath was asking/suggesting a theoretical strat to other people in a chat dedicated to watching the event. If this strat was actually an exploit, the response should just have been "no, they're not allowd to do that". If strats could be considered against the rules, we'd presumably have admins to tell any competitors reading twitchchat "no, you're not allowed to do that".

Why did it take so long for the objectively correct take on the situation to be posted?

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:31 am**

why post correct takes when you can discuss amogus sex or something like that

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:34 am**

we will only post correct takes in the 3rd peanut thread. good things come in 3

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:39 am**

Fishimun wrote:we will only post correct takes in the 3rd peanut thread. good things come in 3

never, ligma has taken out all the oldies.

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:27 pm**

I support this ban.

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:07 pm**

Anuv wrote:I support this ban.

go back to your place, jannie hell.

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:17 pm**

oranges wrote:no why would I give a shit about athath's plight, dude doesn't do anything of value to me.

the thing I don't get is why his coding ability or contributions are even relevant

like he could be the best coder on the planet and that still wouldn't be relevant to a ban for ingame conduct

we can debate the appropriateness of the ban on its own merits but "weee wehh wehhh but he CONTRIBUTES" is fucking irrelevant

I've lost count of how many business articles I've read that basically amount to "I got rid of my most productive employee and the business started doing BETTER" with the plot twist being that the productive employee in question was a piece of shit impossible to work with asshole that caused even more problems than he solved

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pm**

Screemonster wrote:the thing I don't get is why his coding ability or contributions are even relevant

like he could be the best coder on the planet and that still wouldn't be relevant to a ban for ingame conduct

we can debate the appropriateness of the ban on its own merits but "weee wehh wehhh but he CONTRIBUTES" is fucking irrelevant

this

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:40 pm**

it also wasn't a ban for in-game conduct though

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:49 pm**

if someone is using exploits in your event, and you feel thats its being ruined- its your event, isnt it? just use your admin powers to gib them or give them brain damage or something, the event is hardly "ruined" i really dont see why this is such a big deal

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:50 pm**

and if hes "spoiling the surprise" who gives a shit this isnt a movie knowing what will happen wont make it less fun

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:04 pm**

Cobby wrote:The event runner doesn’t put secrecy at the forefront because he is expecting everyone to not spoil the fun for others while he’s juggling more pressing issues like making sure the event runs in the first place.

I only understand the ban in the context that they could have been banned beforehand for some of the shenanigans they pulled but the banning admin chose not to for whatever reason, I don’t understand why this is the final straw and it’s not even his fault (you can’t expect him to know about event bus when you hide the channel).

I would have been more keen to like the ban had they just at the time of some of other ATH’s shenanigans when they were likely a headmin as well to overrule for a more permanent length. Why they chose to put their foot down now over this nothingness makes no sense to me unless they’ve been looking to ban him all this time but was getting pushback from the other 2 headmins.

Again, the likely bet is he gets unbanned and now it’s a pita to ban him because there’s this stigma there’s admins out to get him (see goof)

Absolutely 100% agree.

Someone on the events team, mostly those who frequent mapping-gen in this case? just needed to mention to ATH that spoiling that stuff in a public channel is not cool and to ask for events mapper role because there is a better place to share that stuff. Obviously it could cut both ways and make even more info about events available for spreading maliciously but I'd like to give some benefit of the doubt.

Posted: **Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:13 pm**

thomanthewise5404 wrote:if someone is using exploits in your event, and you feel thats its being ruined- its your event, isnt it? just use your admin powers to gib them or give them brain damage or something, the event is hardly "ruined" i really dont see why this is such a big deal

thomanthewise5404 wrote:and if hes "spoiling the surprise" who gives a shit this isnt a movie knowing what will happen wont make it less fun

and the thing is they did neither
they were not playing in the event, and going into the SPECTATOR chat for SPECTATORS to talk about the things they are SPECTATING and going "well wait couldn't they just do x?" can in no way at all be "spoiling" anything because that just makes no sense whatsoever to any kind of sane human being

If that was something bannable then we might as well not have deadchat in game because that might allow ghosts spectating a player to go "well couldn't the hos just toss a nade in through the door and kill all the cultists summoning inside?", because the entire point of contention of this ban is essentially just that, and even less actionable considering this was not something that happened in game even if we were to play devil's advocate on this and say that hypothetical deadchat message could be bannable

Imagine watching the toolbox tourneys in some alternate universe and being in the twitch chat and saying "Wait couldn't they just body toss each other and get a stun on the opponents?" and being banned from the game for "spoiling and discussing (((((exploits)))))" if the jannie in question decided they didn't like you talking about intentional game mechanics. You can't even say they got banned for playing the game the way someone else didn't want them to, because they weren't even fucking playing, and imagine if someone would be banned for body tossing in the tourney, that would be fucking absurd as well

So I have two questions to the jannies. 1, would you have banned someone if they did what athath was talking about (not taking into account if they did or did not talk about it, just purely if someone who was actually playing the event did it), and 2, if you answered yes to 1, what would that add to the community?

Because if you answer yes to 1, while I admire your consistency, that would just make you an obtuse unfun retard and I would then question why it is you are even adminning, but if you answer no, then you have no leg to stand on for someone to TALK about doing what you wouldn't have banned someone for actually doing.

Posted: **Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:30 pm**

Screemonster wrote:
oranges wrote:no why would I give a shit about athath's plight, dude doesn't do anything of value to me.
the thing I don't get is why his coding ability or contributions are even relevant

like he could be the best coder on the planet and that still wouldn't be relevant to a ban for ingame conduct

we can debate the appropriateness of the ban on its own merits but "weee wehh wehhh but he CONTRIBUTES" is fucking irrelevant

I've lost count of how many business articles I've read that basically amount to "I got rid of my most productive employee and the business started doing BETTER" with the plot twist being that the productive employee in question was a piece of shit impossible to work with asshole that caused even more problems than he solved

It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:21 am**

confused rock wrote:the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him

scary

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:14 am**

confused rock wrote:It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?

then just say its a fucking rule 1 ban not some mysterious code diving ban.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:50 am**

Jonathan Gupta wrote:
confused rock wrote:It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?
then just say its a fucking rule 1 ban not some mysterious code diving ban.

It's a rule 1 ban because he's being a fuckwit by continually code diving to get exploits.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:08 am**

FloranOtten wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote:
confused rock wrote:It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?
then just say its a fucking rule 1 ban not some mysterious code diving ban.
It's a rule 1 ban because he's being a fuckwit by continually code diving to get exploits.

Maybe just write better, less exploitable code instead of publicly merging shitty ban bait code.

And again, as others have said, if discussing ways to use features is bannable then every admin, coder and player that has ever talked about game mechanics in dchat deserves to be banned.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:27 am**

FloranOtten wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote:
confused rock wrote:It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?
then just say its a fucking rule 1 ban not some mysterious code diving ban.
It's a rule 1 ban because he's being a fuckwit by continually code diving to get exploits.

Or maaaybe he just enjoys code diving?

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:44 pm**

chocolate_bickie wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote:
confused rock wrote:It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?
then just say its a fucking rule 1 ban not some mysterious code diving ban.
It's a rule 1 ban because he's being a fuckwit by continually code diving to get exploits.
Maybe just write better, less exploitable code instead of publicly merging shitty ban bait code.

And again, as others have said, if discussing ways to use features is bannable then every admin, coder and player that has ever talked about game mechanics in dchat deserves to be banned.

If you don't code bugs, you won't have any bugs! And the issue isn't that he codedives, it's that he does it to find exploits which he then abuses. If he ignored the exploits? Fine. Reported them? Fine. Laughed about them and did nothing with them? Fine. Find lag exploits and use them to hold the server hostage? Not fine.

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote:
confused rock wrote:It's being debated because the real reason ath is being banned for this is because he's a huge prick and nobody likes him. what ath did could very easily have been innocent and a bit stupid, but we're going with the narrative of it being malicious because fuck ATH anyways, right?
then just say its a fucking rule 1 ban not some mysterious code diving ban.
It's a rule 1 ban because he's being a fuckwit by continually code diving to get exploits.
Or maaaybe he just enjoys code diving?

Then why does he keep exploiting his findings?

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:19 pm**

Based

1984 shills in shambles.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:19 pm**

he is free

best,
bobbah 'bee' brown

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:01 pm**

Glad that the admin we elected sees reason and isn’t an angry banbot. Though to be honest, they would certainly permaban me if i named my character Margaret Thatcher and stole all milk on the station.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:13 pm**

terranaut wrote:Based

1984 shills in shambles.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:15 pm**

... Uh, I'm still banned from the Discord server.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:22 pm**

Banned from the server for 1 month - [Common] Bob Bobson says, "I have the power to LAG THE STATION AT WILL, GODS" [Common] Bob Bobson says, "NOT UNTIL THE ADMINS GIVE US OUR SANT" | holding the server hostage by lagging it out to get what they want, OOC in IC

The only reason they didn't get permabanned for this when it happened was because it was christmas and their antics that round was at least slightly funny.

but i also feel it sent the wrong message about expectations.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:27 pm**

Update: Naloac lifted the Discord ban as well; not lifting it was just an oversight.

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:37 pm**

ATHATH wrote:Update: Naloac lifted the Discord ban as well; not lifting it was just an oversight.

tbh I thought it was cos it still said remove in 2 days

Posted: **Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:34 pm**

Cant wait for him to fuck over everyone in the server with him next time he finds an o so fahnee exploit and then claims ignorance saying he wasnt being malicious y r u persecuting me

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:15 am**

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Cant wait for him to fuck over everyone in the server with him next time he finds an o so fahnee exploit and then claims ignorance saying he wasnt being malicious y r u persecuting me

crag has rolled out the slip n slide guys

thank you crag its been really hot recently im glad you brought the fun

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:27 am**

FloranOtten wrote:
XivilaiAnaxes wrote:
FloranOtten wrote: It's a rule 1 ban because he's being a fuckwit by continually code diving to get exploits.
Or maaaybe he just enjoys code diving?
Then why does he keep exploiting his findings?

Are you honestly telling me that "Marth from Super Smash Brothers" where he just memes around with people going "lol look at what I found" before letting the antagonist kill him instead of manhandling him counts as "wow he keeps exploiting bugs what the fuck?"

Like idk if you've ever tinkered but playing around with what you find is at least half the fun?

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:39 am**

this has been a very divisive peanut

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:41 am**

Honestly pretty relieved to see that sense won the day here by a 2-1 Headmin Overrule vote.

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:17 am**

Malkraz wrote:this has been a very divisive peanut

divisive for shitposter rights, yes, we need to work on this

oh yeah and there was something about a virology main but i didn't read until page 4

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:21 am**

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29406

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:10 am**

the people who actually have fun in the game vs the people who pretend to have fun in the game who will win

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:03 am**

Whoneedspacee wrote:the people who actually have fun in the game vs the people who pretend to have fun in the game who will win

the pretenders are sus

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:15 am**

Whoneedspacee wrote:the people who actually have fun in the game vs the people who pretend to have fun in the game who will win

99 percent of the people in this thread don't play the game at all

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:30 am**

cSeal wrote:
Whoneedspacee wrote:the people who actually have fun in the game vs the people who pretend to have fun in the game who will win
99 percent of the people in this thread don't play the game at all

the

joke

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:24 pm**

I'm gonna go ahead and make this post on July 6th 2021 so I can quote it in the future ATHATH permaban peanut where everyone is asking "how did he not get permabanned a long time ago" and the inevitable "wow this guy has been an asshole forever this was a long time coming" posts

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:29 pm**

The real victory here isn't that ATH has been unbanned but that code diving and talking about what you find isn't a permeable offence.

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:02 pm**

chocolate_bickie wrote:The real victory here isn't that ATH has been unbanned but that code diving and talking about what you find isn't a permeable offence.

Posted: **Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:40 pm**

Anuv wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and make this post on July 6th 2021 so I can quote it in the future ATHATH permaban peanut where everyone is asking "how did he not get permabanned a long time ago" and the inevitable "wow this guy has been an asshole forever this was a long time coming" posts

Don't forget to quote these if ANYTHING happens in the intervening time and it's impossible to build any support to do anything about it because of how much this ban sucked:

Pandarsenic wrote:History-of-X bans without an actual incidence of someone doing X in the moment stink, always have.

Cobby wrote:Again, the likely bet is he gets unbanned and now it’s a pita to ban him because there’s this stigma there’s admins out to get him (see goof)

/tg/Station 13

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