hos gets banned for executing unarmed black man in brig nut

[technokek]

[terranaut]

prisoners attempting escape and armed with stuns/lethals have always been fair game
manuel tier ban

[sinfulbliss]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Tlal caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

[XivilaiAnaxes]

Lmfao succumb ahelping

I wonder if mso will pop in for a "fuck you im banning that guy instead"

[Tlaltecuhtli]

is this the second time thunder gets banbaited with a deathgasp? starting to lose count

[Flatulent]

james ningle at it again

[terranaut]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Acco caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

you can just ctrl f for it, aka what the jannie should do before throwing a ban

[joooks]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Acco caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

you can just ctrl f for it, aka what the jannie should do before throwing a ban

what the fuck is logs i need to get my ban quota

[Malkraz]

even if he didn't deathgasp it's a prisoner running around with a stun baton in brig
didnt we just have an appeal about a guy lasering an assistant with a baton during blob or whatever

[Tlaltecuhtli]

even if he didn't deathgasp it's a prisoner running around with a stun baton in brig
didnt we just have an appeal about a guy lasering an assistant with a baton during blob or whatever

resisting arrest, stealing baton from warden, attempting to baton hos to run out of prison is already acting like antag get threated like one. critting with laser is also a just method to arrest when in a dire situation. even if the OP is underage ban has no grounds

[Malkraz]

correct

[technokek]

[sinfulbliss]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Acco caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

you can just ctrl f for it, aka what the jannie should do before throwing a ban

what people can do and what they do do has a gap that is equivalent in length to the distance between here and the nearest galaxy
as such acco is basically a space explorer in terms of the impossibility of this task
(also hah do-do)

[Screemonster]

even if he didn't deathgasp it's a prisoner running around with a stun baton in brig
didnt we just have an appeal about a guy lasering an assistant with a baton during blob or whatever

the assistant in that one was wanted, didn't know he was wanted, and had the baton in his bag that the officer didn't know was there until after he opened fire with lethals on sight (ie. the officer instigated and tried to justify it retroactively)

in this instance the guy literally stole the baton directly from the warden right in front of the hos, attacked the warden with it, and tried to flee the brig which is absolutely valid for lighting him up with whatever the fuck the hos has to hand at the time

[Malkraz]

(ie. the officer instigated and tried to justify it retroactively)

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator.

[Screemonster]

(ie. the officer instigated and tried to justify it retroactively)

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator.

just because you shouldn't expect it doesn't mean they're not allowed to and it's fucking irrelevant now anyway

the only connection between the two bans is limited to the existence of a baton and the use of lethals by sec, under entirely different circumstances and entirely different orders of events

"I saw a guy with a W and opened fire on him with lethals and he happened to have a baton in his bag which he pulled out after I opened fire with lethals" is not even remotely the same situation as "this guy pushed over the warden and stole his baton in the brig, attempted to attack me with it and escape arrest, so I opened fire with lethals"

[Gigapuddi420]

ban doesn't look good, I'd understand it more if the assistant escaped without stealing the baton, but as is he was armed and fishing to stun the officer. Arguably the officer should have the tools to non-lethally disable the prisoner but the circumstances allowed the officer to use force to resolve the threat.

Sure, the officer wanted his valid salad and that can be frustrating but I'd have slammed a "IC FUCKING ISSUE" in the ahelping players face for making themselves valid in the first place.

[chocolate_bickie]

Guys, you need to understand that someone stunning an officer is not a reason to execute them. It dosen't matter why they might do with that baton, it dosen't matter that they were trying to escape perma. All that matters is that they non-lethally detained the warden. The HOS cannot assume harm. You see security has to be played like silicons, you cannot assume harm.

Here's a quite from sec policy; https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

Admins snuck this little tidbit into the rules a long time ago. Maybe next time consult a lawyer before breaking server rules.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Wouldn't have been lethal means if the shit chimp didnt suckumb

[Gigapuddi420]

you can light up a assistant trying to stunbaton you with your lethals because it's treated as a lethal threat. This has long been the case.

[Malkraz]

entire thread of tard defenders owned by 1 simple verb

[Screemonster]

even if he didn't succumb he was still valid as fuck for trying to fight his way out of brig and stunning the warden with a stolen weapon

even if they didn't know about the antag shit in his bag at the time of putting his ass on the floor, finding the antag shit in his bag is a solid reason to not have to pick his ass up off the floor afterward

"I just critted this guy for valid escalation so I should take him to medbay, oh no new evidence has come to light that paints him as extremely likely to be an antag but my hands are tied because I didn't know about it before and I still have to take him to medbay" said no sane person ever

[Pandarsenic]

It probably would've been easy to flashbang the dude, but also if you're running around doing that shit you've opened yourself up to whatever

If you then get searched after you die of natural causes deathgasp and you're decked out with antag gamer gear, no shit you don't get revived

like come ON

[Stickymayhem]

I appreciate that no one in this thread is criticising thunder too hard because this is a really dicey area of edge cases that would be kind of unclear even without the succumb.

Personally, particularly on Terry, I think security can be a little bit more lethal with people being absolute shitters. With the near-death of stun gameplay lethals have unfortunately become a more effective means to reliably put someone down, and critting someone in the brig before healing them back up after they've been subdued is pretty reasonable.

There's an idea I subscribe to that doesn't get a huge amount of traction but it goes like this: You take responsibility for your actions in the grey areas of the rules, even if that involves things out of your control and those things out of your control effect the outcome. Yes it's important not to allow people to kill randomly and then post hoc justify it with a traitor item on their person, but when considering a reading of the situation, a prisoner doing a prison break, stealing a dangerous weapon (stuns are deadly) and using it on the Warden, in a high security area, is antagonistic. I've stolen the armory with less set-up than that, it's a genuine threat.

Here's a neutral example: An assistant stuns the Captain in the hallway as a prank. Technically legal, annoying but not punishable. But if that stuns leads to another antag seizing the opportunity and dragging the captain into maint while eswording him, now that original assistant is responsible. Their behaviour did not change, but the outcome did. This has been true since the days of us counting kills from a singularity to determine a ban length based on the RNG outcome of non-antag stupidity and malice.

The reverse is also true, if someone is acting antagonistically, and then also turns out to be an antagonist, I think that in some ways post hoc justifies the actions of the HoS in this example. They read the room correctly, assessed the threat level correctly and applied the correct amount of force (Enough to crit, not kill). Yes there are too many security officers that are absolute shitters, but there are also a lot of non-antag shitters that make it harder to make these decisions correctly because of the amount of 'noise' generated by non-antag antagonistic behaviours being normalised on a server.

I think there's an interesting nuanced discussion to be had here, and I'd love something in the rules to reflect this idea, because it feels like the rule is mostly an unwritten application of the way we moderate the game.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

>have emag and hand tele in bag as not antag
>get arrested
>hos is going to strip my bag in brig cell
>press adminwho and find out thunder the admin who doesnt read logs is here
>instead of trying to justify why you have all this shit shove warden and try attack hos with baton
>get critted and succumb by death whispering retard
>ahelp saying you got executed 4nr
>admin bans and double dips with "you should have defibbed him before searching his bag" despite rule 4's act like an antag get threated as one exists

[Fishimun]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Acco caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

you can just ctrl f for it, aka what the jannie should do before throwing a ban

what the fuck is logs i need to get my ban quota

MODS!!! ban jooks

[Malkraz]

After Fred Best summarily executed and round-removed 5 Assistants for running around in brig for laughs at roundstart and didn't get so much as a note nobody is allowed to punish for merc'ing a motherfucker acting up in red zone anymore.

[chocolate_bickie]

After Fred Best summarily executed and round-removed 5 Assistants for running around in brig for laughs at roundstart and didn't get so much as a note nobody is allowed to punish for merc'ing a motherfucker acting up in red zone anymore.

While not specific to this appeal, you make a good point that players generally have reduced escalation requirements within their own departments against people from outside their departments.

I think perhaps current admin policy hasn't caught up to the fact that most deaths are generally preceded by a stun or knockdown of some kind.

[Pandarsenic]

there are also a lot of non-antag shitters that make it harder to make these decisions correctly because of the amount of 'noise' generated by non-antag antagonistic behaviours being normalised on a server.

I think there's an interesting nuanced discussion to be had here, and I'd love something in the rules to reflect this idea, because it feels like the rule is mostly an unwritten application of the way we moderate the game.

I really do think the "Act like an antag, get treated like an antag" rule should cover most of this

Add in a touch of "protest-succumb is equivalent to suiciding or ghosting" (as differentiated from succumbing to whisper "I need antitoxins" to someone who is giving you incorrect medical care, etc.) - which could stand to become a formal policy rather than an unwritten rule, maybe?

But like... if ya try to break out of the brig, stun the warden and steal his baton, then get caught with traitor items and objectives when you're robusted for doing this, what's sec supposed to think? The succumb doesn't even need to factor in. This is just one of those risks you take when you combine two kinds of gamer gear in your backpack.

[capn_monkeypaw]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Acco caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

you can just ctrl f for it, aka what the jannie should do before throwing a ban

what the fuck is logs i need to get my ban quota

MODS!!! ban jooks

Too late.

[Kangtut]

After Fred Best summarily executed and round-removed 5 Assistants for running around in brig for laughs at roundstart and didn't get so much as a note nobody is allowed to punish for merc'ing a motherfucker acting up in red zone anymore.

This is a holocaust for you isn't it? The number of dead assistants keeps going up and soon you'll start telling people I turned them into soap and how your best friend is now a lamp on my desk.

[Malkraz]

oy gevalt

[Autismal]

*deathgasp

[Jonathan Gupta]

deathgasp tier epicness, always deathgasp in crit.

[Kendrickorium]

the correct response in this situation, as any good captain knows, would have been to

>shoot until dead or disabled
>handcuff
>straightjacket
>muffle
>earmuffs
>revive
>gulag

[Kendrickorium]

the correct response from the one that was lethaled:

>push and baton warden to assert your superiority in robustness, reminding him that he is a failure of a warden and strive to do better, be better
>throw baton at HOS's feet
>lay down and await further punishment

[BONERMASTER]

From the TG Station wiki, Space Law (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law):

Use of Deadly Force
[...]Additionally, in the event of an attempted prison break, Security may fire lasers through the glass. They are expected to first fire a few warning shots before unloading their weapon into the target.

So that to me would suggest, that breaking out of prison warrants the use of lethal force. Regarding the person in that appeal however, there is no dispute that they were acting in a life-threatening manner that would have permitted the use of lethal force, regardless of the circumstance. Though it has to be said, that if the warden did not show complete incompetence by not only refusing to check the belongings of the person under arrest, but also placing them in the cell with their entire assortment of deadly weapons and utility tools still equipped AND not putting any handcuffs on them, none of this complete and uttery travesty would have taken place. The warden would have been more justified to be the target of this ban, even if for entirely different reasons.


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

[Mothblocks]

I just want to point out how insane it is that Acco caught that they deathgasped. Does he go through all appeals logs with a finetooth comb? Is it an inner sense that alerts him as to an imbalance in the ban and the appeal? I do not know, but whatever it is it isn't human.

thats tlal not tjat

[Anuv]

If you *deathgasp you should not be able to ahelp for the rest of the round period. Make it an exclusive function.

[Agux909]

If you *deathgasp you should not be able to ahelp for the rest of the round period. Make it an exclusive function.

[Screemonster]

If you *deathgasp you should not be able to ahelp for the rest of the round period. Make it an exclusive function.

or add a big obvious notification to all their PMs from that point on

Request for help from some_tiding_dipshit (Succumbed): hey security just killed me for no reason

[Not-Dorsidarf]

>Get arrested
>Warden forgets to search you for your connies that will get you killed if he finds them
>Attack him, stun him, try to stun a passing sec officer
>Manually Succumb at -56 damage after being shot by said sec officer
>Ahelp
>get the sec officer banned

classic androidincrew

[Pandarsenic]

If you *deathgasp you should not be able to ahelp for the rest of the round period. Make it an exclusive function.

or add a big obvious notification to all their PMs from that point on

Request for help from some_tiding_dipshit (Succumbed): hey security just killed me for no reason

That would be especially good if you could tap the "Succumbed" alert to see what they said with their deathgasp, if anything.