joe's peanut

[Tlaltecuhtli]

>dereliction of duty is against space law
>traitor chemist gets arrested and searched on mrp server after his department head sniched on sec how he hasnt been in medbay for whole shift
>once in a year activity admin 2 week secbans for fail rp
>traitor didnt even get killed
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ead#unread
mrp moment

[Screemonster]

on the one hand slacking off isn't really "acting like an antag" to go validhunt and declaring that someone's probably a traitor for it is on a par with checking the dorms for locked doors at roundstart
on the other cmon dude you're supposed to be some sort of infiltration agent performing an act of corporate sabotage at least pretend to maintain your cover and certainly don't keep incriminating evidence on your person

[Dat_Legion]

In one corner we have Straub, chem main and bathsalt user supreme being the HoS.
In the other? we have some poor chemist who made the mistake of existing on the same station.

Honestly considering no one died, Straub waited for 30 minutes, and the fact the dude didn't even get perma'd, all add up to attack of the deadmin roomba trying to add a notch to their banhammer.
Also, he should be perma'd for valid hunting syndicate agents as the HoS, we can't have that on MRP.

[Agux909]

The admin says "they had a long discussion with Joe about their trajectory on Manuel", then bans them anyway.

Sure, validhunting out of nowhere isn't allowed as per RP rules, but in this case the CMO prompted the search and suspicion by calling security to look for a chemist that was missing for 30 minutes.

HoS immediately jumping to "they're probably a DIRTY FUCKING SYNDICATE" is indeed a failRP moment.
But can you say that suspicion on the chemist, who was reported by their own Head, who hasn't been in chemistry for an extended period of time, and also isn't dead, is completely uncalled for?

This is the paranoia that drives the game, is it not? If the alert level was higher than green, then the HoS had the right to suspect the chemist for what's described above.

Making this worse, the HoS decided to give leeway to the confirmed tot by releasing them just with some implants for tracking (which is textbook compliant with MRP). Aside from the initial attitude, what's exactly wrong with the HoS' way of proceeding, what made him deserving of a 2 week long job ban?

[FantasticFwoosh]

I can't see why they couldn't have just demoted the chemist by using security to track them quietly so the CMO can deal with revoking job permissions, and then let the det do the dirty work in figuring out what was going on.

2 weeks for a boredom validhunt, maybe just this once they earned it for trying to be the good guy too earnestly.

[Dat_Legion]

It's easy to tell that Straub was powergaming sec by arresting the chemist.

CMO's job to deal with in-department drama, not security.

[Cobby]

If there isnt any other piece in the story i dont see what the issue is.

If a CMO says "yo I have a chemist not doing their job" that is perfectly fine to demote them, which obv requires security to go out and get the materials associated with the job including the person. I dont agree its the CMO's job to do that piece, the CMO did what I would expect them to which is give it to security.

Had the person made meds or something that contributed to medbay then he likely never would have been noticed. If he wanted to just roam the halls he should have gone to hop for assistant access, which would also give him the power of maint.

Naturally with slower paced rounds people are going to be able to investigate more things (like you not being available all shift), so as an antag you should be aware that, compared to LRP, your approach will likely have to be a bit different.

[Farquaar]

Joachim Straub is a dirty validhunting killjoy, but there was enough reason to search for the missing chemist in this case.

[Super Aggro Crag]

joachim straub is a power player who frequently either does Big Tater stuff when antag or Stops the Taters when he isnt.

i dont think he deserves a ban for it. ahelping for getting searched as an antag, found out to be an antag, and THEN RELEASED as an antag is fucking cringe

[NecromancerAnne]

If someone is missing for 30 minutes, couldn't that be an indicator that they're maybe fucking dead?

[Dat_Legion]

If someone is missing for 30 minutes, couldn't that be an indicator that they're maybe fucking dead?

You can't have a good opinion on a peanut thread, at least make vague, non-commital commentary about the ban, changing your opinion with every post.

[Agux909]

If someone is missing for 30 minutes, couldn't that be an indicator that they're maybe fucking dead?

Yes, but they weren't dead, so this is moot.

[NecromancerAnne]

You can't have a good opinion on a peanut thread, at least make vague, non-commital commentary about the ban, changing your opinion with every post.

I'm a rebel without a cause, what can I say.

Yes, but they weren't dead, so this is moot.

I meant more the jumping to conclusions is a really weird thing to do regardless. This entire problem could have been avoided if they just, you know, found the person and investigated it without saying one way or another. I'm not saying whether the ban was deserved or not, mind. It might seem a little severe, but if they've been spoken too before, which is the conclusion I got form the note actually, then it makes more sense that a ban was dropped.

Anyway, this story also reminds me of a real thing that happened to me. Krokodil once tried to kill me (or did, I forget, I believe he just shot me into crit) on I *think* Sybil without saying a word with a shotgun. This was because I was in space for half an hour as curator. He had concluded I was a traitor due to not being on-station the whole time, and having a gun holster (which you can print from botany fyi and isn't a unique item). I did shoot back because someone wordlessly firing a shotgun at you is fightin' words, so I wasn't gonna complain to the admins and I'll throw down if people want it, but at the same time I think people who do this shit need to take a major chill pill (that is, assume guilt before any evidence on spurious accounts).

Sometimes people just disappear from the station for a long time, it's not a crime nor do you need to get aggressive unless you're talking to one of those cunts notorious for talkbaiting. Then you shoot them mercilessly because lol what are they gonna do, complain to an admin?

[Agux909]

Yes, but they weren't dead, so this is moot.

I meant more the jumping to conclusions is a really weird thing to do regardless. This entire problem could have been avoided if they just, you know, found the person and investigated it without saying one way or another. I'm not saying whether the ban was deserved or not, mind. It might seem a little severe, but if they've been spoken too before, which is the conclusion I got form the note actually, then it makes more sense that a ban was dropped.

I agree that jumping to the conclusion that they were a tot was a moment of fail RP, as I said in a previous post. But this got solved ICly, there was no real harm done nor anyone's round terminated by the actions of the paranoid HoS.

Seeing the warnings and notes now posted in the appeal thread I can understand why one would hold it against Joe. But ultimately, what he was banned for here ended up being a case of rule lawyering by the admin. Security had to find the chemist anyway. And if he wasn't dead, then he better had a good explanation of why he was absent for 30 minutes after never showing up to medbay. Remember this isn't HRP, silly and unreasonable situations are still prone to happen.

[Flatulent]

remember that this shithole server is what half of headmin force including the host see as peak tg

[Agux909]

remember that this shithole server is what half of headmin force including the host see as peak tg

It doesn't have to be like this. I still believe the gucci spot is somewhere between our current LRP and MRP.

[Flatulent]

How do you make the middle ground work? What would you drop from current MRP rules? How would you change admin behaviour? I personally see Manuel as containment server for malfunctioning in-game internet roombas, but I suppose the containment will be breached at some point.

[BONERMASTER]

ONE of the two CMO's reporting the missing chemist on command radio:

Code: Select all

06:44:35	TCOMMS	Emuburemu/(Zoey Coldsmith) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) "I ddo nut haave sec commmch,...huuuhhh...bboooooot...huuuhhh...Bumbyx the kheeemicht didn'tt show oop in khem chincce chhhhift chtart,,, ahn'd hahsn'ttt givvve'n a juchtiif'iicahtiun" (language: Galactic Common)

Head of security received the message and relaying the information to the department:

Code: Select all

06:44:50	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "Yo lads"	(121, 179, 4)	Security Office
06:44:54	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "Be weary of bombyx"	(121, 179, 4)	Security Office
06:45:03	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "They are a chemist who never showed up to do chemistry"	(121, 179, 4)	Security Office
06:45:12	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "aka possibly fucking AGENT"	(129, 174, 4)	Security Office
06:45:23	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "we can set em to arrest and search em."	(128, 174, 4)	Security Office

Chemist then is being disabled by an officer:

Code: Select all

07:00:43	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has shot Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 81.4) 	(140, 107, 4)	Chemistry
07:00:44	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has shot Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 81.4) 	(144, 107, 4)	Chemistry
07:00:44	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has shot Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 81.4) 	(145, 107, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:45	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has shot Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 84.4) 	(145, 106, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:46	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has fired at Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam from Cryogenics (NEWHP: 84.4) 	(145, 106, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:46	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has fired at Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam from Cryogenics (NEWHP: 84.4) 	(145, 108, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:46	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has shot Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 84.4) 	(145, 108, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:47	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has fired at Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam from Cryogenics (NEWHP: 83.4) 	(145, 108, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:47	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has shot Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 83.4) 	(145, 109, 4)	Cryogenics
07:00:48	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has attempted to handcuff Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) (NEWHP: 82.4) 	(145, 112, 4)	Medbay Central
07:00:51	ATTACK	Bmon/(Jordan Reay) has handcuffed Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) (NEWHP: 81.4) 	(145, 112, 4)	Medbay Central

and subsequently searched:

Code: Select all

07:01:03	ATTACK	Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) is being stripped of the chemist satchel by Bmon/(Jordan Reay)	(143, 114, 4)	Medbay Central

There the syndicate items are found, a support holo parasite. Head of security evaluates the findings:

Code: Select all

07:04:27	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "i'd be willing to let bombyx out with just implants."	(118, 171, 4)	Brig
07:04:30	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "pass me the bag"	(119, 171, 4)	Brig
07:04:32	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "lemme take a look"	(119, 171, 4)	Brig
07:04:43	EMOTE	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) sneezes.	(119, 171, 4)	Brig
07:04:52	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "thanks"	(118, 171, 4)	Brig
07:04:57	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "anyways"	(118, 171, 4)	Brig
07:05:08	SAY	Joe13413/(Joachim Straub) "I'll check for uplinks and we can release"	(120, 171, 4)	Brig

The chemist is released with a tracking implant and continues to play until the end of the round:

Code: Select all

08:40:19	ATTACK	Fluoxetine_Lad/(Bombyx Etheria) has died (BRUTE: 179, BURN: 28.8, TOX: 0, OXY: 2, CLONE: 0)	(202, 78, 1)	CentCom Recovery Ship

Quote from the ban reason given:

I proposed he consider what he expects out of the server and how the server culture aligns with that, and to consider whether LRP servers would better fit his playstyle

Frankly, I don't see any violation of the rules in this incident, and you coming out of your half year vacation to explain a regular player how the game works is nothing short of insulting. The standard you are expecting from this head of security is in no corelation to how anyone else plays on this server. The medium roleplay you are campaigning for is at this point practically indistinguishable from the LRP-servers, and yet in your mind you find this person to be in such violation of whatever absurd standard you have conjured up, that you not only held them hostage in the tickets to give them your important opinion on how they should play, but also banned them from their role after making them listen to it. How about, you evaluate why you are still an admin and consider if your current trajectory is not more befitting for the retirement (server).


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

[MrStonedOne]

Looking into this, it doesn't seem like they were banned for what they did to the chemist after finding them, but for assuming that missing == antag.

I feel like that without that "possibly fucking AGENT" line they would have been fine.

Even thinking in and ordering your IC actions around this logic is metagaming. There was a time when doing that would be cause for a talking to or ban on even sybil.

[Agux909]

How do you make the middle ground work? What would you drop from current MRP rules? How would you change admin behaviour? I personally see Manuel as containment server for malfunctioning in-game internet roombas, but I suppose the containment will be breached at some point.

I'm not a fucking candidate flatulent, lmao.

But I guess I can just give you my bad take and experience as a player. Remember you asked for it though.
And I don't think you believe in what you said, sounds like the typical server rivalry malarkey.

MRP has salvageable aspects to it, which are the most basic you can find on it's rulings.

For example, encouraging antags and non-antags giving each other some reasonable breathing space, is super healthy for the round and the majority of players in it. Aka not murdering valids wordlessly just cause you can. Or not removing the whole crew systematically just cause you got 20ms and godly memorized hotkeys. You know, the whole deal of making something interesting instead of trying to win? Like, pretty sure there are way more dopamine-inducing games than this one for stepping over everyone and boasting about it later.

But then there's cases such as this ban here. Certain knowledge of the game is hard to ignore sometimes. Some people can hold it for the sake of RP, some can't and act upon it. We got meta info or hunches and we can't always act as if we didn't. If the end result, as seen here, can lead to more interesting scenarios other than "winning", then it's a good achievement and shouldn't be disencouraged. The HoS didn't kill nor perma the tot. He didn't even pacify him! He actually gave him a second chance and kept him in the round. Aka, he kept it interesting, even if his initial reaction and history shows him as a validhunting powergamer.

This is still a silly 2D game and I think precedents from bad rulings like this ban here are some of the reasons for the characteristic stagnation we often perceive from Manuel. Everyone ends up scared about doing shit so they usually do autistic projects, bar rp, super stealthy shit as antag, etc.

Manuel is a good idea at its core but imo, rule enforcing and precedents made it what it is today unfortunately. And as you can see, a lot of people enjoys playing on it still. And no, they aren't all "malfunctioning in-game internet roombas", they just enjoy more slow-paced rounds in which they can talk and interact with other players, without fearing that doing so makes them lose precious seconds they could've used to not get shoved, stunlocked, tabled, stripped and round removed.

As for me not playing in there anymore. At the time I just found it boring, and the rounds weren't spicy enough for me, so I kinda got burnt out from that (but it was probably my fault)

[Pandarsenic]

Who's Joe?

Shitpost aside, the "possibly fucking AGENT" line seems like a joke more than a serious allegation, and letting the guy go with implants strikes me as a pretty decent thing to do.

[sinfulbliss]

This is pretty much the reason I don't play Manuel often. You never know when you're gonna get nabbed for something weird like that. I wouldn't have searched that guy as HoS on LRP Sybil - not because it's "powergaming," but because a chemist not doing chemistry for 30 minutes is completely within the realm of a normal LRP shift. No HoS in history on LRP would arrest someone for "dereliction of duty" (which is technically a crime although maybe it's a stretch here). The fact he even made this arrest shows he was following the MRP culture at the very least, and the fact he actually released the guy and let him go free, supports that even more.

But if it is the case that, on Manuel, people are expected to do their jobs and roleplay their jobs, and some guy decided to fuck off for 30 min from his job to do - who knows what? That's reasonable cause for concern, MRP wise, and isn't really powergaming to get on that as sec. Just good detective work. I mean think about it from a roleplay perspective. This guy was hired to work on a space station far away from home, to do chemistry. And he abandons his post for half an hour (30-50% of a shift), giving medbay such an issue they contact security about it. Security arrests and searches. So now the guy's banned? Very strange to me.

[sinfulbliss]

Also, his comment about the guy being "SYNDICATE SCUM" is an obvious joke and cannot serve as a way to claim the HoS immediately decided "missing == antag." Sometimes it's funny to say extreme stuff in sec comms to make it a little more fuckin exciting than "saw someone hacking into bridge, going to arrest." As long as it's clear it's a joke - and in this case it was clear.

[Screemonster]

If there isnt any other piece in the story

this is what I wondered from the first post 'cause without context or logs I was like "okay, they banned for THAT? there's gotta be something else going on here surely"

[terranaut]

who's joe

[NoxVS]

who's joe

Joe13413

[Super Aggro Crag]

Joe mama

Got em

[Flatulent]

How do you make the middle ground work? What would you drop from current MRP rules? How would you change admin behaviour? I personally see Manuel as containment server for malfunctioning in-game internet roombas, but I suppose the containment will be breached at some point.

words

thank you for your sincerity, reading this has given me insight into what people on other servers think

[Farquaar]

How do you make the middle ground work? What would you drop from current MRP rules?

Bring back a traitor's right to mass murder.
Would remind people that their rounds aren't sacred rituals that must be completed to the end every time.

Spoiler:

Also remove felinids and implement forced randomname don't @ me

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Another example of a sec player getting in trouble because they don't know the magic of never saying what you mean.

The guy who sneaked off roundstart isn't a "possible tot" he's "Acting erratically" and needs a "Courtesy checkup"

The captured traitor isnt being "executed", they're being "transferred for violent crimes"

It's not "You triggered my paranoia", its a "blue alert random search"

[bobbahbrown]

who is joe?

respectfully,
bobbah 'bee' brown

[Rohen_Tahir]

who is joe?

respectfully,
bobbah 'bee' brown

Joejoe bizzare adventure

[Jonathan Gupta]

who is joe?

respectfully,
bobbah 'bee' brown

joe nuts in my mouth.

[MrStonedOne]

who is joe?

respectfully,
bobbah 'bee' brown

Joe late to the party, Pandarsenic already did that joke

[cacogen]

the roleplaying wankery combined with the powergaming on manuel is truly insufferable and creates the worst of both worlds

imagine a clique of effeminate drama nerds sucking each other off while simultaneously deleting anyone they don't know from the round over the slightest grievance

[Farquaar]

imagine a clique of effeminate drama nerds sucking each other off while simultaneously deleting anyone they don't know from the round over the slightest grievance

I like Manuel but unfortunately this can be true at times. Especially if you don't static.

[Noodlecat]

Still mad that joe helped a known traitor broke into engi and when I shoved them after they refused to leave, straub AS A NON ANTAG helped a confirmed at known traitor stunlock and kill me