/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

The only good news is that all those oblivious Austrian millennials who are studying abroad in some fancy-pants British university and voted liberal are gonna be sent home thanks to Brexit to live with their choices in their own fucking country.

oy guv, nearly twelve bong on the doomsday tickety-tock

Hooray Austria
Now this time, forbid antifa from counting votes
In fact, just forbid antifa from even getting near any polling stations. That way they won't fuck up your election again

And in brexit news
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/6 ... ter-Brexit
Turns out Brexit helps the stock market

That said, Dutch gov said that there will be no EU referendum here. Because they think the people don't want one because there will never be a Nexit anyway

>opposing antifa

Fascist detected.

There is literally nothing wrong with being a fascist.

InsaneHyena wrote:There is literally nothing wrong with being a fascist.

Antifa. Literally violent unthinking thugs who try to silence people they disagree with through fear or violence
They fit the official definition of terrorists

Wow.

I can't believe people believe that.

I remember back in 2008 or whatever when Nick Griffin got a european parliament seat and antifa protesters hurled eggs at him

then without a hint of self-awareness announced to reporters "we support freedom of speech but not for fascists"

DemonFiren wrote:Wow.

I can't believe people believe that.

Well it doesn't help that they just rigged Austrian elections with voting frauds.

edit: latest news, the mastermind behind the recent Istanbul bombing was a refugee in Austria
Far right landslide incoming

I dunno sounds like the kind of people fascists deserve.

Isn't the basic authoritarian model anti democratic and as a key political tactic imprisons/kills political opponents?
I mean they basically would see it as idiots voting to end democracy, even if in the spineless death of a thousand paper cuts modern fascist style.

Grazyn wrote:

DemonFiren wrote:Wow.

I can't believe people believe that.

Well it doesn't help that they just rigged Austrian elections with voting frauds.

edit: latest news, the mastermind behind the recent Istanbul bombing was a refugee in Austria
Far right landslide incoming

There won't be a referendum for a Nexit because the Netherlands is the least eurosceptic country in the EU, as opposed to the UK which was the most eurosceptic.

So if you want to talk about the people like the Dutch are a hivemind with exactly one opinion, then that opinion would be "no Nexit".

Actually a lot of political analysts said that NE was gonna be next after brexit

And many political analysts said the opposite.

[youtube]RJC5Ichmkfw[/youtube]

Sargon being quick to make the video like always.

Ricotez wrote:And many political analysts said the opposite.

They also said Brexit was statistically impossible and that Trump would never win the US Gun-friend-group primaries. I'm pretty sure these people have no idea what they're talking about and as such shouldn't be listened to.
On both sides, really. A lot of them are just kinda making shit up that they want to see and then they hope things go that way.

That said, I don't even care if a Nexit happens. I just want the ability to vote on it. If a majority is against it and wants to stay in the EU, then so be it. Anything but a landslide victory will still send the bright and clear message that there is a lot of discontent. The government is saying that there won't be a referendum specifically because they're afraid that it will happen like in the UK. And they will be forced to deal with the reality that people don't like them or their elitist project

That said, I do believe there may be a majority here that is pro-EU. The only country aside from Germany that has that. Literally nowhere else in the EU

>Delusional teen tries to assassinate the SJW Hitler

The future of this generation looks bleak

Political analysts are a joke and should be treated as such. Remember a few months ago when the idea that Trump staying in the race, let alone winning the nomination was an idea only idiots believed? Remember the election before when the same idea happened with Romney?

They're just people paid to "analyze" politics and by "analyze" they mean just put forward their own ideas and say that ideas they don't support are unlikely.

InsaneHyena wrote:
Sargon being quick to make the video like always.

Eh Americans always call their leaders the hitler antichrist manchurian candidate, I think it's how they say those people look presidential.

Doesn't exactly mean they are going to kill them just look at obama.

Just voted in the Australian double dissolution election, numbered like 120 senators on the senate paper. Could have just gone 1-12, feeling quite democratic right now.

Eh polls saying liberals probably gonna win, at least our right wing majority party is actually somewhat financially competent instead of basically waving wands and claiming they are.

Ode to one nation:
[youtube]D4tZRZSGxcE[/youtube]

InsaneHyena wrote:There is literally nothing wrong with being a fascist.

true

People who just completely ignore 4000+ years of history proving again and again and again that giving all power to one person is a bad idea, because maybe this time we find the right guy, right? I mean, he's got a point that all those other people cause all of our problems, let's put him in charge and abolish the freedoms our ancestors spent centuries fighting for. What, your opinion is not the same as my (his) opinion? Maybe you are secretly one of those other people?

Ricotez wrote:

I think most ancient kings just branched off the unregulated barter economy, early agriculture and force of arms prior to the invention of better systems allowing them to become disgustingly rich for the time period then passing it to junior.

Yes I do think the extremely rich are just going to end up re-enacting the earliest follies of history, maybe not consciously but out of primordial greed definitely.

As history shows, giving complete power to someone is a bit of a gamble. If they truly mean well and are competent, then you're headed for a golden age. But then as soon as they die chances are someone who doesnt mean well or is incompetent will take over and everything will go to shit
Likely though, whoever gets complete power never meant well for anyone other than themselves and close friends, or are incompetent fools. So it's not a good idea to do that.

And then in modern times, it instead works through groups of people trying to get full power. And then these groups of people are just as likely to become tyranical, often in very similar ways(Like communist China, the USSR, etc)
In short, we're pretty much always going to get fucked. It's just a matter of choosing how you want to get fucked

Just stick with democracy and stop vying for power you cucks

Democracy, equality, goodwill towards men, the fundamental belief that all human beings deserve equal chances and being submitted to the same process of fair treatment...

...unfortunately do not work in this world.

Bourgeois representative democracy is a sham.

At least democracy lets everyone be bloody damn fools.

Democrasy at least means that those who want to be tyrants at least need to pretend they mean well once every 4 years. Or however long is between your elections.

It doesn't stop them, but it at least inconveniences them

Anyone who bitches that democracy doesn't work needs to retroactively be flunked out of highschool for failing history.

The fact you are not the property of some asshat by virtue of absolutely needing to work during all your waking hours on their land to feed yourself is a pretty fucking solid checkmark in "Democracy works you retard" box.

Like for real, democracy is why we have everything from sanitation to refrigeration. The fact that democracy forces leaders to invest in their populace is also a pretty good fucking deal, democracy encourages public education and that is pretty much the sole reason that we have had such rapid economic and scientific development over the last 300 years. If you actually spent even a fraction of your time looking into the world you live in rather than complaining because you feel things could be better, you would know that right now is literally the best time to be alive, and is better for more people than any other time.

If you don't know Huntington's theory on power alteration you shouldn't even be allowed to talk about your perceived problems with democracy because if we weren't in a democratic system a dumbass like you would be drafted or forced into labor. You are just an entitled dumbass who doesn't know enough about the raw reality the vast majority of political history to understand the ramifications of your comically uneducated statement. Even Jefferson, who argued for limited authoritarian democracy, did so because of idiots like you who would inevitably yearn for disenfranchisement and tyranny and thus thought none of you should ever have gotten a chance to vote.

XSI wrote:Democrasy at least means that those who want to be tyrants at least need to pretend they mean well once every 4 years. Or however long is between your elections.

It doesn't stop them, but it at least inconveniences them

Neither parliamentary nor presidential systems have problems where they create tyrants who only show a nice face every 4 years.

In presidential systems, despite being the head of government, the president is not the head of the legislature and thus has limited ability to enact a singular will, it benefits the legislature to resist a tyrannical president to earn political points.

In a parliamentary system the head of government is always chosen from among the leading party, but is responsible to the wishes of the leading party. If the PM becomes a raging asshat, the cabinet can and often will call a no confidence vote at the moment its clear he is an asshat to earn political points, there is no need to wait 4 years. In fact, the desire to avoid no confidence votes directly lead to the Brexit situation, its why the referendum even happened. On top of that the entire concept of recalling parliament directly encourages political parties to be consistently excellent in case parliament is recalled. If you were a dick and your opponents were cool, then if parliament was recalled you would lose your seat way earlier than 5 years

DemonFiren wrote:Democracy, equality, goodwill towards men, the fundamental belief that all human beings deserve equal chances and being submitted to the same process of fair treatment...

...unfortunately do not work in this world.

It was working pretty well until it worked too well and the SJWs started ruining everything.

It never works well, any liberties gained by the ballot, or passed by the cretins elected to "represent" the people, can be taken away.

>Democracy doesn't work
>Because liberties can be taken away

Haha yeah man fascism where you have no rights to be taken away or anarchy where there's nobody to turn to to enforce anything or socialism where everyone's lives are equally shit is much better

Anyone who thinks democracy doesn't work I vote we fire into the sun

Fascism, where we have a merging of capitalist and state power.

Anarchy where we have no rules or rulers vs anarchism where we have rules, but no hierarchial organization to oppress people.

and then socialism, where we have worker control of the means of production which magically translates to "ayy lmao dude people spending other peoples money until its gone"

Democracy works just as wealth concentrates onto fewer and fewer individuals eventually they will have more power than actual nations I think. Probably already more powerful than third world shit holes plus able to hobble democracies with precision bribery using what is to them trifling amounts of money and getting a net profit too.

Robber barons turning into robber kings sort of thing.

dezzmont wrote: Neither parliamentary nor presidential systems have problems where they create tyrants who only show a nice face every 4 years.

I didn't mean it like them taking it by force and then suddenly being friendly for an election only to go back to their usual selves, but more that a large amount of people only pay attention just prior to the elections. Democrasy works, but only if the people who vote think about their votes. Otherwise, they will be essentially voting at random, as they don't know what the guy they voted for is actually doing.

Definitely beats feudalism, but what I meant there was that at the very least the power-hungry need to claim to have a reason for wanting that power now, and it needs to be something they can convince enough people of. As opposed to just getting control over a large chunk of land and a large amount of people just for being born as the child of someone who also had this.
Democrasy also comes in a lot of forms, US democrasy is very different from French, British, Dutch, etc. Some systems are more vulnerable to people trying to take power, and some less. Some are easier to lock up with bureaucrasy, and some are more direct than others. Each of course with their own weaknesses.

In the end, it's just a universal constant that there will always be dicks out there who want power just for the sake of it or for their own ends. Democrasy is more of an obstacle to them than many others, especially ones where an in-group controls everything(Communist China, etc), or ones with a lot of nepotism(Most medieval systems). I am very well aware of the influence a single power hungry, or even attention-hungry person can have on a small group, and it is not pretty if they play their cards right and end up in a leadership role.
If such a group happens to also be in charge of a lot of things, things can go very wrong, very quickly.

Hope that clarifies my point of view on that. Not hating on democrasy here. As flawed as it is, it is still much better than any of the reasonably achievable systems out there.

dezzmont wrote:Anyone who bitches that democracy doesn't work needs to retroactively be flunked out of highschool for failing history.

The fact you are not the property of some asshat by virtue of absolutely needing to work during all your waking hours on their land to feed yourself is a pretty fucking solid checkmark in "Democracy works you retard" box.

BULLSHIT

Unless you're in some highly specialised, highly skilled, job where your employer pays you a fuck ton of money just so you don't take those skills elsewhere (eg: high level jobs with Sun Micro) you'll be working for fuck all in a contract where you'll be spending 8-9 hours a day at work, plus an hour or two of travel, and probably still have to be availible to take emails in an evening.

The irony is that they call this "wage slavery", but when I've worked wage jobs (where I've had to clock in and out) I've been told by management to make sure I leave on time so I'm not getting paid over my contracted hours - but when I've worked salary jobs? Fuck you, you stay until the fucking job is done - want over time? Tough shit, you're not contracted to receive over time and even if you were overtime has to be approved by management first. You're one of those people that does their alloted hours and then goes home? Well, too bad, we want people that do free work for us so look forward to getting passed over for promotions and payrises etc.


Salary slaves, thats the real 21st century serfdom.


Edit: BTW, if you call what we have today as 'democracy' you're a farking fool that doesn't know what the original greek version of democracy is.

Democracy is a millenia old system that needs to be removed. We took out the feudalism trash a long time ago, it's time to take out the democracy trash now.
There are countless better systems that allow a country to actually make meaningful changes when there isn't a war going on.

>confusing crony capitalism with democracy
uninstall your computer

You aren't thinking of democracy, you're thinking of capitalism.


In capitalism, the main goal is to gain wealth. In socialism, the goal is to benefit society. In communism, the goal is benefit everyone equally. Capitalism is the only type that has worked historically because in capitalism the elites of society have an excuse to shit on those lower than them for reasons that aren't just pure power, aka gaining wealth out of either pure greed or a desire to have their descendants (if any) to have a better start to continue to gain wealth. Democracy as a government isn't any of that. It's just the cycling out of these people and that's why it has worked for as long as it has.

>Democracy doesn't work because I have a shitty job

???????????????

Capitalism corrupts democracy, so why not have a socialist system organized by workers councils.

Because socialism doesn't work.

That's not entirely correct. Socialism does work but it wouldn't ever work in a place like America where that narrative is furthered.

Malkevin wrote:

dezzmont wrote:Anyone who bitches that democracy doesn't work needs to retroactively be flunked out of highschool for failing history.

The fact you are not the property of some asshat by virtue of absolutely needing to work during all your waking hours on their land to feed yourself is a pretty fucking solid checkmark in "Democracy works you retard" box.

BULLSHIT

Unless you're in some highly specialised, highly skilled, job where your employer pays you a fuck ton of money just so you don't take those skills elsewhere (eg: high level jobs with Sun Micro) you'll be working for fuck all in a contract where you'll be spending 8-9 hours a day at work, plus an hour or two of travel, and probably still have to be availible to take emails in an evening.

The irony is that they call this "wage slavery", but when I've worked wage jobs (where I've had to clock in and out) I've been told by management to make sure I leave on time so I'm not getting paid over my contracted hours - but when I've worked salary jobs? Fuck you, you stay until the fucking job is done - want over time? Tough shit, you're not contracted to receive over time and even if you were overtime has to be approved by management first. You're one of those people that does their alloted hours and then goes home? Well, too bad, we want people that do free work for us so look forward to getting passed over for promotions and payrises etc.


Salary slaves, thats the real 21st century serfdom.


Edit: BTW, if you call what we have today as 'democracy' you're a farking fool that doesn't know what the original greek version of democracy is.

The fact I can't fucking take and sell your child means you need to shut the fuck up and stop comparing your relative lack of wealth for an absolute lack of wealth and lack of personhood.

Beyond that, democracy is directly responsible for the concept of wage work, and thus a high standard of living, existing at all.

Without democracy you would literally be a dirt farmer, but on top of that no one would have toilets or fridges or anything of the sort.

You can totally complain things are not as good as they could be. I would love to live in an Elcipse Phase style post scarcity Anarchist commune.

But bitching that democracy doesn't work is like bitching about a cancer treatment that doesn't cure the disease but doubles your life expectancy with only minor side effects. Only an idiot would call that a 'failure.' By all accounts Democracy is a resounding success, its just that, just as its inventors foretold, whiney babies like you would yern to go and throw away the very tools that better their lives.

Also 'greek democracy' wasn't really ever a thing because Greece was never a nation, it was a collection of city states that started to develop a notion of Greek unity before the Spartans, you know, asshole authoritarians, pretty much ruined it. You may be referring to Athenian democracy, but if you consider 1% of the population being able to vote a good democracy while complaining modern democracy devalues you as a wage worker you truly are a clueless moron. Sure, Athens was a good place to live if you were in power, but so are most oligarchical states. But if you want to go back to Athenian democracy, that is cool. Lets play pretend!

You are part of the 99% as a modern day wage worker, therefore, you no longer get to participate in this discussion. Any attempt to talk back means I have you violently beaten. Please enjoy exactly what you asked for.

It wasn't as bad as Rome, where I would literally have a client in my house who's job is purely to torture you whenever any slave steps out of line, but it still sucked complete balls. Pretty much any complaint you make about modern life can basically be boiled down to: "I have to face a minor disruption in what over the course of human history is a completely perfect life in paridise, therefore I want to burn down the very structure that guaranteed me everything I ever took for granted in this world."

ShadowDimentio wrote:Because socialism doesn't work.

Democracies with heavily socialist values tend to be pretty good by most metrics, the problem is that you risk creating a socialist democracy which is bad. Most of democracy's problems come from overrepresentation of any specific group. It is why political scientists currently note a downswing in a participation in political culture, even though things are getting better and democracy is generally working in the places its heavily established, which could be a long term problem. But that isn't a fundemental problem with democracy, that is a problem with shitty voting systems.

I see socialism as more of a stopgap, sure its less easy to rot from within like American style derpadoo too hard to have more than two options democracy but it's just a question of heft. Everyone has a price yada yada, just a matter of time or making the effort to bring more socialist democracies down in golden chains.

I see it as either you go out full on direct democracy so instead of representatives taking piss tiny bribes and fucking billions off they would need to bribe everyone and if it's not a trick that might be general social benefit anyway.

That or have a fucking purge of all businesses every decade or some shit.

A communist state against a capitalist world just leads the them being picked apart from all directions so anything short of global majority communism would get fucked anyway.

dezzmont wrote:

Malkevin wrote:

dezzmont wrote:Anyone who bitches that democracy doesn't work needs to retroactively be flunked out of highschool for failing history.

The fact you are not the property of some asshat by virtue of absolutely needing to work during all your waking hours on their land to feed yourself is a pretty fucking solid checkmark in "Democracy works you retard" box.

BULLSHIT

Unless you're in some highly specialised, highly skilled, job where your employer pays you a fuck ton of money just so you don't take those skills elsewhere (eg: high level jobs with Sun Micro) you'll be working for fuck all in a contract where you'll be spending 8-9 hours a day at work, plus an hour or two of travel, and probably still have to be availible to take emails in an evening.

The irony is that they call this "wage slavery", but when I've worked wage jobs (where I've had to clock in and out) I've been told by management to make sure I leave on time so I'm not getting paid over my contracted hours - but when I've worked salary jobs? Fuck you, you stay until the fucking job is done - want over time? Tough shit, you're not contracted to receive over time and even if you were overtime has to be approved by management first. You're one of those people that does their alloted hours and then goes home? Well, too bad, we want people that do free work for us so look forward to getting passed over for promotions and payrises etc.


Salary slaves, thats the real 21st century serfdom.


Edit: BTW, if you call what we have today as 'democracy' you're a farking fool that doesn't know what the original greek version of democracy is.

The fact I can't fucking take and sell your child means you need to shut the fuck up and stop comparing your relative lack of wealth for an absolute lack of wealth and lack of personhood.

Again, bullshit.

It took 16 'democratically' elected presidents before America joined the rest of the western world and stopped buying and selling black folk.


Democratically is in inverted commas because in the original greek system elections didn't happen, because it was thought it would lead to popularity contests (how wrong they were, right?) instead they basically threw a bunch of names into a hat and picked one at random.

>Because America took a while to end slavery democracy is shit

You're actually retarded

Simple question: In what alternate system would slavery have been ended sooner

ShadowDimentio wrote:>Because America took a while to end slavery democracy is shit

You're actually retarded

Simple question: In what alternate system would slavery have been ended sooner

Constitutional Monarchy as it turned out.

Edit: The southern states, unsurprisingly, did not vote to end slavery but instead actually voted to secede from the union (for lots of other reasons aside from slavery), as was their constitutional prerogative.
It took an unconstitutional invasion of the northern states to stop that and by proxy end slavery in the south. I don't know what you'd call that but it certainly wasn't democracy.


And neither was the Royal Navy blowing the shit out of Zanzibar for that matter. I strongly doubt the Arabs and strong Blacks voted for that.