2k17 /pol/

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lntigracy
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346306

Bottom post of the previous page:

I have a buddy who went to west point before voluntarily dropping out to go to regular college ROTC because of how shitty the campus has become.
I know a different guy who went all the way through west point and had the same things to say about it not at all being what he expected of a prestigious military academy.


I doubt starmute has even seen how soldiers act at work...

As subordinates, soldiers in the military must exhibit respect when speaking to a superior, whether it be an NCO or an Officer.

That being said this Ranger Boy was incredibly disrespectful to a LtCol. He then was not removed from the campus even though he had blatantly broken the honor code cadets are supposed to live by. He then was commissioned into the active army and put in charge of soldiers while being entirely unfit to lead.

While it's fair to say political speech is acceptable in private conversation, seeing as the articles of the ucmj mention private conversation explicitly as normally being allowed, what he did wasn't private and is an embarrassment to the armed service in how public and blatant it was in support of overthrow of the current government. It's also not political speech when you're blatantly insulting your superiors.

Also (west point) cadets outrank NCOS and enlisted for the purpose of chain of command in the case of replacing someone absent, but in actual execution (west point) cadets who try taking over a group of soldiers without prior authorization will in large part be ignored. The only time this will ever even matter is if they're assigned to a unit for training. ROTC cadets are completely unmentioned in the regs and will only be at a unit if they're in the reserves already, in which case they'll be treated like an LT DURING DRILL since they're always with an LT anyway.

As far as what happened at west point LTC Heffington was berated at an honor code hearing of a student he reported for breaking the honor code, and his sworn statement about Rapone was completely ignored.

PS LTC Heffington was a LTC in active duty before retiring, he was a LTC at the time of the sworn statement if you'd even bothered to read it.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #346324

lntigracy wrote:.
Yeah, the JAG would have zero trouble bringing Rapone up on an Article 133 but the rest of the laundry list is similarly easy given testimony and his own admissions as entered into evidence. I do think he's a small part of a bigger problem though. We have a large amount of young men in the military who are not there to be in the military but are there because it is an extension of the federal employment system.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by XSI » #346355

Daycare for adults then
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #346356

XSI wrote:Daycare for adults then
Typically its just free college money. They've been pulling the sign-on enlistment incentives thing for ages. It seems that's infected the officer programs as well (though I guess this should have been seen coming with the route actual universities have been going.)
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346526

lntigracy wrote:I have a buddy who went to west point before voluntarily dropping out to go to regular college ROTC because of how shitty the campus has become.
I know a different guy who went all the way through west point and had the same things to say about it not at all being what he expected of a prestigious military academy.


I doubt starmute has even seen how soldiers act at work...

As subordinates, soldiers in the military must exhibit respect when speaking to a superior, whether it be an NCO or an Officer.

That being said this Ranger Boy was incredibly disrespectful to a LtCol. He then was not removed from the campus even though he had blatantly broken the honor code cadets are supposed to live by. He then was commissioned into the active army and put in charge of soldiers while being entirely unfit to lead.

While it's fair to say political speech is acceptable in private conversation, seeing as the articles of the ucmj mention private conversation explicitly as normally being allowed, what he did wasn't private and is an embarrassment to the armed service in how public and blatant it was in support of overthrow of the current government. It's also not political speech when you're blatantly insulting your superiors.

Also (west point) cadets outrank NCOS and enlisted for the purpose of chain of command in the case of replacing someone absent, but in actual execution (west point) cadets who try taking over a group of soldiers without prior authorization will in large part be ignored. The only time this will ever even matter is if they're assigned to a unit for training. ROTC cadets are completely unmentioned in the regs and will only be at a unit if they're in the reserves already, in which case they'll be treated like an LT DURING DRILL since they're always with an LT anyway.

As far as what happened at west point LTC Heffington was berated at an honor code hearing of a student he reported for breaking the honor code, and his sworn statement about Rapone was completely ignored.

PS LTC Heffington was a LTC in active duty before retiring, he was a LTC at the time of the sworn statement if you'd even bothered to read it.


Lets get the facts straight.

1. Nobody knew about Rapone's actions during his west point tenure is the official line. Perhaps there is some "huge coverup", but there is again "occam's razor". Which is more likely a retired army officer trying to get press coverage off of it or the entirety of the military academy covering up something.

2. When Rapone graduated he released photos of him acting out.

3. If you are a major and above and hold a doctorates degree you can become a lt. col as a professor at west point. It however is a career ender.

4. Cadets are officers in training. They rank above warrant officers but bellow 1st lieutenants. If there is no first lieutenant then they are the officer.


I'm sure your "buddy" knows lots about west point. Considering its one of the best schools in the nation, you are paid for going there and many of our nations leaders come from there. I probably think he's a drop out or never went there on basis of him going to ROTC afterwards however. Not everyone can cut the mustard.

West point is a very nice school, however its very grueling and tedious. They make you work for everything.

Being found on honor is something that the Corp of cadets do. Not the teachers. If you bothered to read what Lt Col Heffington he never was there for Rapone's "honor hearing". His "sworn statement" is essentially a letter out to the corp of cadets newsletter with "ccs" to news publications so he would get attention.

Again you are blowing smoke out your ass Intigracy. Please don't talk about west point like you know it. I literally was there this year for a month. I have family members who went there and others members of my close family who went to the Airforce academy

I do however agree that that is public political speech and it's against the UCMJ so he has his ass in a sling. As well he should.

Other charges:
As far as "overthrow of our current government".
Not sure he said anything like this because I didn't read his rantings too much. Could be true, I'd need to see the post in context to see it. If there is any seriousness to that he could be tried under the sedition act.

Disrespecting a commanding officer.
The Secretary of Defense is a civilian appointee and yes, you can say bad things about him. Its not smart though. HOWEVER if he disrespected Mattis before his appointment then that's a different matter. So if the post in question was prior to 2013 then he's in some deep shit.

Conduct unbecoming?
Definitely


Am I defending this vile fuck? No. He's a asshole who should probably be thrown out the army for supporting a political party while in uniform. That being said Intigracy is dead wrong on a bunch of things.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #346530

starmute wrote:Which is more likely a retired army officer trying to get press coverage off of it or the entirety of the military academy covering up something.
Is this a serious question?
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346531

cedarbridge wrote:
starmute wrote:Which is more likely a retired army officer trying to get press coverage off of it or the entirety of the military academy covering up something.
Is this a serious question?
Yes. Considering people have been kicked out for lying about their golf score at West Point... its a dead serious question. What does West Point have to gain in covering up for a cadet?

However the retired professor has incentive to lie to gain fame and fortune.

A institution founded by George Washington himself, prides itself on honor and tradition goes out of its way to cover up that one of it's students should be kicked out (when there is a very liberal attitude towards kicking out rotten apples) or someone profiting off a juicy story?

Occums razor.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346533

retard with no reading comprehension wrote:Disrespecting a commanding officer.
The Secretary of Defense is a civilian appointee and yes, you can say bad things about him. Its not smart though. HOWEVER if he disrespected Mattis before his appointment then that's a different matter. So if the post in question was prior to 2013 then he's in some deep shit.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Article 88 Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

ah yes your family members being in the military automatically makes you an expert on military matters
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346534

Conspiracy theorist wrote:
article 88
You should know that particular law has only been used once. Ever.
And the Manual for Courts Martial and Army policy narrow the scope of Article 88 significantly. Even for active duty, the comments would have to be personally contemptuous versus contemptuous of their job performance.

Besides the point you said "Disrespecting a Commanding officer" and then move the goal posts.

But hey its not like military officers called obamma a "pussy"... oh wait they did.

And it's not like you actually have friends who went to west point. I can see a bold faced lie when I see one.

2.13.1. You have the right and duty as an American citizen to vote and to voice your opinions concerning political matters; however, you must be careful that your personal opinions and activities are not directly, or by implication, represented as those of the Air Force. Further, Article 88, UCMJ, prohibits commissioned officers from using contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a Military Department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the governor or legislature of any state, territory, commonwealth, or possession in which he or she is on duty or present. Enlisted personnel who make derogatory or disrespectful statements about political leaders may violate Article 134, UCMJ, when their military status is associated with the statements (such as making these comments on a social networking site where the member’s employment with the Air Force is also listed).


So he would have to state "

A: I'm a Army Cadet"
B: Prejudicial information about the current commander in chief ect ect.

He graduated in 2016. Mathis wasn't secretary of defense for more than a few months was he at that point?
Last edited by starmute on Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346537

It's not like I had a list of the articles of the UCMJ he violated in my post.

Oh wait.
Violated Article 88 (Contempt towards Officials) of the UCMJ since he decided to insult both James Mattis and President Trump publicly.

Violated Article 92 (willful violation of a military regulation) with his bastardized uniform you see in the picture.

Violated Article 94 (sedition / mutiny) with his posts about infiltrating the organizations of the military.

Violated Article 107 (false statements) and article 131 (perjury) with his lie during commission that he wasn't personally opposed to or a member of a group opposed to the lawful US government (he considers himself a member of antifa / wants communism to replace the current US system)

Violated Article 133 (conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman) which is pretty self explanatory.
Other charges:
As far as "overthrow of our current government".
Not sure he said anything like this because I didn't read his rantings too much. Could be true, I'd need to see the post in context to see it. If there is any seriousness to that he could be tried under the sedition act.
man if only I gave examples in my post of the behavior I accused him of

Oh wait.
implying he's currently employing tactics designed for revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_ ... stitutions
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And the Manual for Courts Martial and Army policy narrow the scope of Article 88 significantly. Even for active duty, the comments would have to be personally contemptuous versus contemptuous of their job performance.
Personally contemptuous statements against officials, man if only I had examples of that in my post.

Oh wait.

http://archive.is/i7jSK
Was so pumped for you to go in on Mattis on the latest ep. Definitely the most vile, evil fuck in the current administration
http://archive.is/BYaWF
Pence is a fucking medieval, cold-blooded killer
"it's okay cause the other guys did it under obama :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)"
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37866754/ns/u ... l-command/

Being found on honor is something that the Corp of cadets do. Not the teachers. If you bothered to read what Lt Col Heffington he never was there for Rapone's "honor hearing". His "sworn statement" is essentially a letter out to the corp of cadets newsletter with "ccs" to news publications so he would get attention.
Ah yes, the sworn statement dated November 18, 2015 is definitely just an attention-whoring letter he created in 2017 to send to news media and cadets.
Nobody knew about Rapone's actions during his west point tenure is the official line.
However the retired professor has incentive to lie to gain fame and fortune.
So that sworn statement is fabricated then?
"The next morning, I confided in three close friends/colleagues about what had occurred on the night of 17 November. One officer told me that he had had serious misgivings about CDT Rapone for a long time, and he proceeded to show me CDT Rapone's Facebook page. What I saw completely stunned me. From his various online rantings and posts, it appears that CDT Rapone is an avowed Marxist, which is completely out of line with the values of this nation and its Army. Moreover, CDT Rapone's posts indicate that he hates West Point, the U.S. Army, and indeed this country. One post dated 16 November 2015 states, "...Fuck this country and its false freedom."
Besides the point you said "Disrespecting a Commanding officer" and then move the goal posts.
He blatantly disrespected LtCol Heffington, who was at the time an officer superior to him.
Then again you don't have reading comprehension so I don't blame you for assuming I'm moving the goalposts since you can't understand that ranger boy has multiple issues on different dates.
Here's another one for that list:
Article 89: Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer
Seriously did you even read a word of the post before responding to it?
Last edited by lntigracy on Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346539

lntigracy wrote:It's not like I had a list of the articles of the UCMJ he violated in my post.
Violated Article 88 (Contempt towards Officials) of the UCMJ since he decided to insult both James Mattis and President Trump publicly.
Possibly. But not while he was at west point
Violated Article 92 (willful violation of a military regulation) with his bastardized uniform you see in the picture.
Yep. I'm sure you can give everyone a bad conduct discharge for wearing their uniform wrong.

Look at this man not wearing protective eye gear! Dissmiss him on the spot
Spoiler:
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Violated Article 94 (sedition / mutiny) with his posts about infiltrating the organizations of the military.
Except he didn't mutiny.
He didn't have a organized plan to overthrow the goverment either.
So other than "ooga booga the goverment is bad right now".
Violated Article 107 (false statements) and article 131 (perjury) with his lie during commission that he wasn't personally opposed to or a member of a group opposed to the lawful US government (he considers himself a member of antifa / wants communism to replace the current US system)
Perjury really? That's in court. Antifa isn't opposed to the lawful us goverment to my knowlege. They are more of a street violence gang. But hey read what most people read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)
"it's okay cause the other guys did it under obama :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)"

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37866754/ns/u ... l-command/
Was McChrystal court martialed and imprisoned over it?

Nope. Is article 88 really used that often? Nope. Could you try to bring it back for some idiot? Probably.

If it was a article 88 he would have gone to Leavenworth, not to mention dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346540

Violated Article 88 (Contempt towards Officials) of the UCMJ since he decided to insult both James Mattis and President Trump publicly.
Possibly. But not while he was at west point
Then again you don't have reading comprehension so I don't blame you for assuming I'm moving the goalposts since you can't understand that ranger boy has multiple issues on different dates.
Reading comprehension. Get some.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346542

lntigracy wrote:
Violated Article 88 (Contempt towards Officials) of the UCMJ since he decided to insult both James Mattis and President Trump publicly.
Possibly. But not while he was at west point
Then again you don't have reading comprehension so I don't blame you for assuming I'm moving the goalposts since you can't understand that ranger boy has multiple issues on different dates.
Reading comprehension. Get some.
Intigracy you are a swirling magical all consuming anus who loves to swirl falsehoods and squirt them out. While I would love to keep debating you, I neither have the time or resources to make a butplug large enough to stop you from spewing shit all over the place.

While I had doubts you actually went into the reserves when you stated you did. Now I'm pretty sure you didn't, somewhere along the line pick up conspiracy theorist as a hobby. This is fine. HBL was right about you all along and I should have listened. We all should have listened. I shouldn't have egged on Rock so much at your behest but whatever.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346543

Believe what you want, armchair general.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346544

lntigracy wrote:Believe what you want, armchair general.
At least I'm not a pretend soldier.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346546

I hope the SFC that told me to prepare for fire season doesn't find out I'm a fraud, he won't be happy to know he's not really in charge of me!

That's got to be the single most insulting thing I've ever read, good work.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by starmute » #346547

lntigracy wrote:That's got to be the single most insulting thing I've ever read.
I think that was the point. Its sad when you think cadets are under PFCs. Regardless either you are a idiot or a liar. I will suffer neither.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #346570

Literally seditious
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Xhagi » #346585

ITT starmute fails to understand the military.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by ShadowDimentio » #346662

>Antifa isn't opposed to the government

Do you know nothing about the people in antifa? It's near entirely consisting of communist anarchists.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by lntigracy » #346664

>you're an idiot or a liar
>posted citations for all of my claims

>can't even recognise rank insignia well enough to know I'm not a PFC
>somehow knows more than me about what actually happens with random cadets trying to order people around

??????
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you are mom is gay
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by ShadowDimentio » #346667

Like holy shit you have to be a special kind of willfully ignorant to not know that antifa is a group of communist anarchists whose stated goal is to overthrow the government. This guy was running around with communism will win taped to his hat and a Che shirt on, talking on communist subreddits about how soon they won't have to hide any more, and you're trying to play defense and say he wasn't being seditious? Good work my guy.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by calzilla1 » #346669

Good ol' Soro's branded communism
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #346709

'slams gonna 'slam
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by oranges » #346724

these threads need to be in the hut so the stupid posts eventually vanish
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #346740

thot_slayer wrote:these threads need to be in the hut so the stupid posts eventually vanish
Just recycle them every year.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Drynwyn » #346878

ShadowDimentio wrote:Like holy shit you have to be a special kind of willfully ignorant to not know that antifa is a group of communist anarchists whose stated goal is to overthrow the government. This guy was running around with communism will win taped to his hat and a Che shirt on, talking on communist subreddits about how soon they won't have to hide any more, and you're trying to play defense and say he wasn't being seditious? Good work my guy.

Issue with the first sentence- Antifa-the-movement's stated goal (insofar as stated goals can be drawn from a decentralized movement without any sort of centralized power structure) is not to overthrow the government, it's to oppose fascism. It's membership does consist largely of individuals who are radically opposed to the institutions of the U.S government, a substantial subset (though not all!) of which would support a violent revolution in principle- maybe even the majority of them. But, that doesn't make it a goal of the movement, any more then a corgi-breeding club being largely liberal would make the advancement of liberal policies a goal of that corgi-breeding club. By extension- it doesn't mean that supporting Antifa is the same thing as supporting violent overthrow of the U.S government. It only tells us that their supporters have certain goals in common with people who would like to overthrow the U.S government.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by XSI » #346879

Railroad Tycoon:
You get your personal finance up by short selling your competition right before you build a line that does what they do, except better and cheaper
Or by buying your own stock right before you improve your own profits and then selling it when it's worth more
Do remember that this is technically illegal to do outside of games

I remember in Railroad Tycoon 2 you could own multiple companies as well. You could deliberately run one you didn't need anymore into the ground after short selling on it and cash out a whole bunch of money that way
Capitalism ho!
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by CitrusGender » #346911

XSI wrote:Railroad Tycoon:
You get your personal finance up by short selling your competition right before you build a line that does what they do, except better and cheaper
Or by buying your own stock right before you improve your own profits and then selling it when it's worth more
Do remember that this is technically illegal to do outside of games

I remember in Railroad Tycoon 2 you could own multiple companies as well. You could deliberately run one you didn't need anymore into the ground after short selling on it and cash out a whole bunch of money that way
Capitalism ho!

>owning a company and then shortselling said company in order to gain money on the decreasing stock price

:thinking: I swear that literarly cannot happen in real life.

edit: yep, you are like 100% like to get investigated by the SEC for internal trading. Don't know how it is in other countries.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by XSI » #346921

You can technically 'own' the company in Railroad Tycoon by being the chairman. And as long as no other player (Or computer 'player') has a majority share, you stay in control

This means the bank who owns the rest of the shares will not intervene if you sell everything you own, and then short sell as much as you're allowed to before throwing all the money out and going bankrupt with the company.
Company dies, and you earn a shitload of cash

Doing this with an actual company will land you in jail if nobody stops you, but more likely than that you'll be told to get lost and someone else is assigned to lead the company
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #346942

Drynwyn wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Like holy shit you have to be a special kind of willfully ignorant to not know that antifa is a group of communist anarchists whose stated goal is to overthrow the government. This guy was running around with communism will win taped to his hat and a Che shirt on, talking on communist subreddits about how soon they won't have to hide any more, and you're trying to play defense and say he wasn't being seditious? Good work my guy.

Issue with the first sentence- Antifa-the-movement's stated goal (insofar as stated goals can be drawn from a decentralized movement without any sort of centralized power structure) is not to overthrow the government, it's to oppose fascism. It's membership does consist largely of individuals who are radically opposed to the institutions of the U.S government, a substantial subset (though not all!) of which would support a violent revolution in principle- maybe even the majority of them. But, that doesn't make it a goal of the movement, any more then a corgi-breeding club being largely liberal would make the advancement of liberal policies a goal of that corgi-breeding club. By extension- it doesn't mean that supporting Antifa is the same thing as supporting violent overthrow of the U.S government. It only tells us that their supporters have certain goals in common with people who would like to overthrow the U.S government.
I'm sorry. Were there corgis or communists in this photo?
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by DemonFiren » #346945

neither tbh
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by imblyings » #346950

why didnt we nuke germany

so many problems wouldn't exist today if we didn't

we could have had german anime
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by DemonFiren » #346956

that would mean anime with a greater chance of lizards and dragons and a lower chance of monstergirl trash

i'd be okay with that
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Malkevin » #346958

Probably a [slight] increase in scat though
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by imblyings » #346962

panzers were over-engineered shit, I know because i regularly used to pop panzer 4s with a t-34 on commissars house in ro2 despite having worse optics. German team couldn't do shit with their tanks if I snagged the tank commander role
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Malkevin » #346967

Pavlov's House?

Yeah, that map was awful to assault from the german side, as evidenced by what happened in real life.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by DemonFiren » #346970

CosmicScientist wrote:Would Bavaria be in charge?
Golly gee I hope not.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by imblyings » #346971

Malkevin wrote:Pavlov's House?

Yeah, that map was awful to assault from the german side, as evidenced by what happened in real life.
nah the winter one, pavlov was the one in summer. Pavlov was not too pleasant to assault on the german side though yeah, especially if russians decided to start flanking/camping near spawn
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by DemonFiren » #346973

actually in retrospect
that panzer copypasta might as well be about subs instead
german subs were nice
except to work in
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by ColonicAcid » #346983

everything german in ww2 was nice... unless you were using it.

then it was hot flaming garbage
crack is whack but smacks got your back
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Takeguru » #346985

German stehl is sexy as fuck though, until you get to the stupid gimmicks like the Maus and even the Tigers

Bismarck and Prinz Eugen will be my shipfu forever though
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Drynwyn » #347047

cedarbridge wrote:
Drynwyn wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:Like holy shit you have to be a special kind of willfully ignorant to not know that antifa is a group of communist anarchists whose stated goal is to overthrow the government. This guy was running around with communism will win taped to his hat and a Che shirt on, talking on communist subreddits about how soon they won't have to hide any more, and you're trying to play defense and say he wasn't being seditious? Good work my guy.

Issue with the first sentence- Antifa-the-movement's stated goal (insofar as stated goals can be drawn from a decentralized movement without any sort of centralized power structure) is not to overthrow the government, it's to oppose fascism. It's membership does consist largely of individuals who are radically opposed to the institutions of the U.S government, a substantial subset (though not all!) of which would support a violent revolution in principle- maybe even the majority of them. But, that doesn't make it a goal of the movement, any more then a corgi-breeding club being largely liberal would make the advancement of liberal policies a goal of that corgi-breeding club. By extension- it doesn't mean that supporting Antifa is the same thing as supporting violent overthrow of the U.S government. It only tells us that their supporters have certain goals in common with people who would like to overthrow the U.S government.
I'm sorry. Were there corgis or communists in this photo?
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About 60% communists probably! But that doesn't make the event communist. Being a communist is a common trait among Antifa members and supporters but that doesn't make it a necessary trait. It is quite reasonable for a given individual to say "I support Antifa's stated goal of opposing fascism by all available means, but am opposed to communism". Similarly- you cannot say "X supports Antifa, therefore, X supports a violent overthrow of the U.S government." You might be able to say "X supports Antifa, therefore X is statistically likely to support a violent overthrow of the U.S government"- but a correlation in what people holds two beliefs doesn't demonstrate that the two beliefs must necessarily be found together!

Let me make an analogy about the ACLU. The ACLU, like Antifa, nominally concerns itself only with a single issue- preventing any erosion of civil liberties whatsoever, regardless of context. Were one to poll the employees, leaders, and donors of the ACLU, you would likely find correlations between ACLU association and certain political views. But that doesn't mean the ACLU supports those views.

You could make an argument that Antifa is a communist or anarchist movement (the second adjective is probably more accurate), but you would need to present evidence other than the views of it's members, such as an analysis of it's stated goals or strong evidence that it's members are, specifically under the banner of antifa rather than as individuals, pushing for things outside it's stated goals. Simply stating the true fact that many of Antifa's members are communists, anarchists, or anarcho-communists is helpful to this argument, but it is not in and of itself sufficient to demonstrate anything beyond that stated true fact.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #347052

I'm going to form a group called the Kitten Cuddle Club. The Kitten Cuddle Club is going to knock over grocery stores and steal their money. Our publications and public website will state our mission to cuddle as many kittens as possible. Clearly we're actually a group about cuddling kittens that people should unironically support and not a violent gang that should be arrested and broken up. It doesn't matter what a group calls itself or announces as its goal. ANTIFA's methods and message are pretty clear. Everything and everyone they don't like (including themselves) is a fascist and must be destroyed. This is accomplished by blackbloc tactics to smash stores and people, swinging bike locks into crowds, terroristic threats and threats of violence against speakers whom they do not agree with, etc. You can pour sophistry and glitter all over them as much as you'd enjoy, but a duck is a duck.

Also, lmao at calling a literal meeting of Bolsheviks "60% communist"
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by calzilla1 » #347070

Antifa is not "facist". They act like any radical left wing organization would, ie supressing any and all decent and claiming dominence using fear tatics and political violence. I do love their cognative dissonance because Marx, Stalin, and Che hated (or at least were skeptical against) jews and blacks. Anyways, I believe that a libertarian left state can never be sustained as a prospering and lasting nation. The people and its leaders would be easy pickings for any other political group and if it can survive that it will eventually evolve into some sort of communism though deep seeded corruption and civil unrest
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by XSI » #347078

I'm not going to judge the individuals at antifa, but the way I see it:
If they act like violent idiots
Talk like violent idiots
And leave destroyed neighbourhoods and injured people behind them like violent idiots

I'm going to call them violent idiots
It's that or some kind of infiltrated agent provocateurs are kicking up shit every single time an antifa event happens. In which case they're just incompetent for not throwing these agents out and self-policing
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Drynwyn » #347118

cedarbridge wrote:I'm going to form a group called the Kitten Cuddle Club. The Kitten Cuddle Club is going to knock over grocery stores and steal their money. Our publications and public website will state our mission to cuddle as many kittens as possible. Clearly we're actually a group about cuddling kittens that people should unironically support and not a violent gang that should be arrested and broken up. It doesn't matter what a group calls itself or announces as its goal. ANTIFA's methods and message are pretty clear. Everything and everyone they don't like (including themselves) is a fascist and must be destroyed. This is accomplished by blackbloc tactics to smash stores and people, swinging bike locks into crowds, terroristic threats and threats of violence against speakers whom they do not agree with, etc. You can pour sophistry and glitter all over them as much as you'd enjoy, but a duck is a duck.
I have made no claims pertaining to whether or not Antifa is a violent gang, whether they ought be destroyed, or any other piece of information concerning what ought be done with respect to Antifa, nor do I intend to (in this argument, at this time). You seem to be reading that lack of an outright condemnation as support, which is perhaps not unreasonable in light of the current climate of political dog whistling, so let me be clear: At present, I am making no claims as to the morality of Antifa's stated goals, their actions, or whether their actions support those stated goals. (I am quite willing to say that their actions have been illegal, however.)

The extent of my stated claims thus far have been that Antifa, as a movement, is not exclusively communist nor exclusively anarchist, although those ideologies are heavily present within it's membership. None of your stated traits of Antifa, "blackbloc tactics to smash stores and people, swinging bike locks into crowds, terroristic threats and threats of violence against speakers whom they do not agree with" are exclusive to communist or anarchist, nor do they intrinsically support communist or anarchist ideas.

Even taking your position that Antifa is a bunch of violent thugs as true, that still doesn't demonstrate that any individual member must necessarily support a violent overthrow of the U.S government. One can be a violent thug without supporting a revolution.

And I would say that a reasonable definition of the core beliefs of a group is the set of all beliefs that a membership in a group necessarily implies, which I will admit is a definition my argument hangs upon. If you want to argue about the nature of group belief- by all means proceed.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by cedarbridge » #347125

CosmicScientist wrote:The members of my cult are all individuals and unless you analyse each and every one in a time consuming manner, you cannot say they each hold the same goals and minds as the non entity of the cult itself and you cannot say the cult itself holds the same goals and mind as each member.

Therefore I propose we spread this method of analysis to the Republican party, the tories, the Nazis with Hitler and the whole of communism. We can conclude that, by using one of these, Hitler and the Nazis were an individual and a collected entity of individuals however we cannot say they meant one and the same thing. Shall I type this out for five more paragraphs before I put yes, minister to shame for how to speak a lot without saying very much at all, possibly because at times the program sometimes didn't say nothing at all in some of the empty sentences.
Drynwyn wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:I'm going to form a group called the Kitten Cuddle Club. The Kitten Cuddle Club is going to knock over grocery stores and steal their money. Our publications and public website will state our mission to cuddle as many kittens as possible. Clearly we're actually a group about cuddling kittens that people should unironically support and not a violent gang that should be arrested and broken up. It doesn't matter what a group calls itself or announces as its goal. ANTIFA's methods and message are pretty clear. Everything and everyone they don't like (including themselves) is a fascist and must be destroyed. This is accomplished by blackbloc tactics to smash stores and people, swinging bike locks into crowds, terroristic threats and threats of violence against speakers whom they do not agree with, etc. You can pour sophistry and glitter all over them as much as you'd enjoy, but a duck is a duck.
I have made no claims pertaining to whether or not Antifa is a violent gang, whether they ought be destroyed, or any other piece of information concerning what ought be done with respect to Antifa, nor do I intend to (in this argument, at this time). You seem to be reading that lack of an outright condemnation as support, which is perhaps not unreasonable in light of the current climate of political dog whistling, so let me be clear: At present, I am making no claims as to the morality of Antifa's stated goals, their actions, or whether their actions support those stated goals. (I am quite willing to say that their actions have been illegal, however.)

The extent of my stated claims thus far have been that Antifa, as a movement, is not exclusively communist nor exclusively anarchist, although those ideologies are heavily present within it's membership. None of your stated traits of Antifa, "blackbloc tactics to smash stores and people, swinging bike locks into crowds, terroristic threats and threats of violence against speakers whom they do not agree with" are exclusive to communist or anarchist, nor do they intrinsically support communist or anarchist ideas.

Even taking your position that Antifa is a bunch of violent thugs as true, that still doesn't demonstrate that any individual member must necessarily support a violent overthrow of the U.S government. One can be a violent thug without supporting a revolution.

And I would say that a reasonable definition of the core beliefs of a group is the set of all beliefs that a membership in a group necessarily implies, which I will admit is a definition my argument hangs upon. If you want to argue about the nature of group belief- by all means proceed.
You're just going to ignore this one then? Your argument doesn't hold to even basic scrutiny. "The group isn't X because it contains people who may or may not explicitly support X when the clearly visible " is a NTS fallacy and always has been.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Drynwyn » #347132

An NTS fallacy involves stating that a given attribute is not an attribute of X, then defining X such that it does not have that attribute or amending the definition of X to exclude those who do have a that attribute (in essence, it's a circular argument.)

Let me set forth clear standards, and clear argumentstion, then, that I have previously only implied, so I can't be accused of it.

Premise one: An organization or group can be said to have an attribute that individuals can possess if and only if an individual in some way empowered to speak for that organization or group says that that attribute is a requirement for membership in that organization, or more than X% of it's members have that attribute.

Premise two: There are no individuals empowered to speak for Antifa, as it as a decentralized movement, not a formal organization.

Premise three: The percent of individuals in Antifa that have the attribute of "supports violent overthrow of the U.S government" is less then X%.

Conclusion: Antifa cannot be said to support the overthrow of the U.S government.

I would peg X at around 85%. It would be fair to say, of course, that a large number of Antifa members support the overthrow of the US government- but I don't think it's fair to claim that about the movement as a whole.
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Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by ShadowDimentio » #347147

Drynwyn wrote:It would be fair to say, of course, that a large number of Antifa members support the overthrow of the US government- but I don't think it's fair to claim that about the movement as a whole.
It's still an organization that a military officer has no business being anywhere near.
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"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz
Malkevin

Re: 2k17 /pol/

Post by Malkevin » #347156

You guys (cosmic especially) need to start putting tl/dr on your posts
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