/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:08 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:24 pm**

Coders don't need to be coddled and shouldn't be coddled. If they're adding things that the players don't like, they should hear it. The game is for the players, after all.
Of course it sucks to see people shitting on something you put a lot of work into, but that's part of life. Not everybody likes you, not everybody likes your work, and players have a right to voice their opinions without walking on eggshells.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:29 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm I don't want to create a space where saying "I don't like northstar" gets you nuked for not being constructive. We don't do this for anyone else and we've been doing fine.

"I don't like northstar" is a world of difference from "FUCK NORTHSTAR". One is an opinion and the other is abusive.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:24 pm Coders don't need to be coddled and shouldn't be coddled. If they're adding things that the players don't like, they should hear it. The game is for the players, after all.

Where's my 15 foot pole? I know I have it around here somewhere...

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:32 pm**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:16 pm If someone named their nukie team "FUCK BOOT AND FUCK SINFULL" they'd probably get noted for it too im pretty sure, there's no double standard here

I most certainly would because, despite the fact that I don't like boot and I think he's a net detriment to conversation on the forums, he still deserves the same respect as everyone else. If this had been a note about nuke teams directly naming themselves something to insult another player, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm I don't want to create a space where saying "I don't like northstar" gets you nuked for not being constructive. We don't do this for anyone else and we've been doing fine.

We're not. You can say that in OOC and, as long as you don't take it too far or become obnoxious with it, you're allowed to. The only thing this touches is specifically naming your nuke team something like this. I'd also apply the same logic if it was a wizard name, if anyone is curious.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:40 pm**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:16 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:54 pm Sounds pretty easy then. Just ignore the rabble who have no power over you and keep on doing what you want to do. If you can't handle people not liking what you make in a way you view as "unconstructive" then I would suggest going to a space where only you get to decide who speaks. Personally I would think that would suck because I like what you do so I do ask you to grow up, not out of a sense of being mean or spiteful but because you are going to deal with people who are alot crazier then some random shitters saying "northstar sucks".
why should volunteer coders / mappers have to take weirdos attacking them instead of an admin telling them to knock it off for not giving anything constructive
I don't want to create a space where saying "I don't like northstar" gets you nuked for not being constructive. We don't do this for anyone else and we've been doing fine.
If someone named their nukie team "FUCK BOOT AND FUCK SINFULL" they'd probably get noted for it too im pretty sure, there's no double standard here

I'll forgive you since you've only played a total of 3 rounds but stuff like that does happen.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:42 pm**

Cheshify wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:02 am It is everywhere. I cannot go anywhere in the community because I'm told straight to my face that the project I care about is shit without any constructive feedback behind it. I literally do not want to play the game, admin, or contribute because it feels like feeding a pack of coyotes that'll just gnaw at my arm.

Like Adam said, "if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen". However, as Vect0r said, for every such player there are also players who like it, but the players who like it won't say anything while the players that hate it will. If you assume that every player who doesn't say something like that likes your project, it might put things in a new perspective for you.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 5:02 am Frankly, the justification that "it's all the new maps that nuke ops want to blow up" is so bullshit. Sinful has to think Vekter is an idiot for him to believe that.

Spessmen hate change, and we especially hate not knowing where the hell everything is.
The "navigate" feature was a great step in the right direction, but it still needs improvement.

oranges wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:53 am You do realise that toxicity like this is exactly why i'm a headcoder becuase most normal people take one look at this and walk away having never gotten past surface level.

Oh no! Were we the pipeline all along?

oranges wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:53 am normal people dont' cope with that shit well, they stop contributing and they give up

"Normal people" need to grow a spine. This is a game for robust spessmen.
Attacks on the creation are not attacks on the creator.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:49 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:54 pm Sounds pretty easy then. Just ignore the rabble who have no power over you and keep on doing what you want to do. If you can't handle people not liking what you make in a way you view as "unconstructive" then I would suggest going to a space where only you get to decide who speaks. Personally I would think that would suck because I like what you do so I do ask you to grow up, not out of a sense of being mean or spiteful but because you are going to deal with people who are alot crazier then some random shitters saying "northstar sucks".
why should volunteer coders / mappers have to take weirdos attacking them instead of an admin telling them to knock it off for not giving anything constructive
I don't want to create a space where saying "I don't like northstar" gets you nuked for not being constructive. We don't do this for anyone else and we've been doing fine.

nobody is going to nuke you for saying you dont like northstar, but its ok to be told to shut up administratively when you cant say anything other than FUCK THIS MAP RAAAAAAAAGH without any type of constructive criticism alongside it. Being passionate is fine but there has to be atleast something that can be built off of, even as small as "this map fucking blows because ordnance lab is too small REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:54 pm**

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:37 pmi genuinely think multi-z is a mistake and that the game would be better off without it.

You should have campaigned on a platform of taking multi-Z maps off the rotation. You'd have won in a landslide lmao.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 7:57 pm**

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:49 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:54 pm Sounds pretty easy then. Just ignore the rabble who have no power over you and keep on doing what you want to do. If you can't handle people not liking what you make in a way you view as "unconstructive" then I would suggest going to a space where only you get to decide who speaks. Personally I would think that would suck because I like what you do so I do ask you to grow up, not out of a sense of being mean or spiteful but because you are going to deal with people who are alot crazier then some random shitters saying "northstar sucks".
why should volunteer coders / mappers have to take weirdos attacking them instead of an admin telling them to knock it off for not giving anything constructive
I don't want to create a space where saying "I don't like northstar" gets you nuked for not being constructive. We don't do this for anyone else and we've been doing fine.

nobody is going to nuke you for saying you dont like northstar, but its ok to be told to shut up administratively when you cant say anything other than FUCK THIS MAP RAAAAAAAAGH without any type of constructive criticism alongside it. Being passionate is fine but there has to be atleast something that can be built off of, even as small as "this map fucking blows because ordnance lab is too small REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

I don't think that someone should be forced to give a reason for why they don't like something.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 8:07 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:57 pm
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:49 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:15 pm
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:09 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 6:54 pm Sounds pretty easy then. Just ignore the rabble who have no power over you and keep on doing what you want to do. If you can't handle people not liking what you make in a way you view as "unconstructive" then I would suggest going to a space where only you get to decide who speaks. Personally I would think that would suck because I like what you do so I do ask you to grow up, not out of a sense of being mean or spiteful but because you are going to deal with people who are alot crazier then some random shitters saying "northstar sucks".
why should volunteer coders / mappers have to take weirdos attacking them instead of an admin telling them to knock it off for not giving anything constructive
I don't want to create a space where saying "I don't like northstar" gets you nuked for not being constructive. We don't do this for anyone else and we've been doing fine.

nobody is going to nuke you for saying you dont like northstar, but its ok to be told to shut up administratively when you cant say anything other than FUCK THIS MAP RAAAAAAAAGH without any type of constructive criticism alongside it. Being passionate is fine but there has to be atleast something that can be built off of, even as small as "this map fucking blows because ordnance lab is too small REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
I don't think that someone should be forced to give a reason for why they don't like something.

you dont have to, you also dont have to say more than you dont like the map, but autistically screeching is just immature and is being a dick to the volunteer that made the map. It would be a different conversation if people were giving valid criticisms or even respectfully saying they dont like the map and then admin action happened.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 8:23 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:40 pm I'll forgive you since you've only played a total of 3 rounds but stuff like that does happen.

You should be reporting people for that if you see it. I can't be on every server 24/7. Also my played time has nothing to do with how often I'm on doing admin stuff, whether or not I play the game as consistently as everyone else has no impact on how good or bad of an admin I am, regardless of what most of Terry's playerbase will tell you.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 8:28 pm**

If you go out of your way to make it known that you dislike a feature to the point youre trying to insert it into the game world such as through a nuke ops name, knowing the creator of said feature also plays, you should be doing it in a benign way or articulate it in a way that doesnt come off as you just trashing work someone put in. You can also just not say anything. Other people here are not synonymous with your personal friend group, it can come off as very rude when you approach something that someone put time in without any room for improvement, especially when you use crude language such as "shit" or "fuck X". You cannot "banter" with other people you dont know and expect all of them to give you the same positive response.

I remember people would literally walk up to me to complain about the "new chemistry policies from centcomm" and similar and, while I got a kick out of it and am pretty lighthearted, I dont think that every person who puts time into developing the game should have to undergo that type of behavior when playing let alone observing.

And mind you we are talking about blasting your opinion ingame where people are just trying to relax and have fun, there is nothing wrong with just trash talking in your own private server or what have you (although reminder that the approach isnt going to help you change it to a good compromise). Heck you are free to wordlessly downvote the PRs like normal people if you dont want to be bothered into giving your "educated" take. Heck you can just say "i dont really care for this" and be done with it, you are not entitled to make a big stink in all the wrong places because you cba to do it at the right time or in the right avenue.

It should not be contentious position that haphazardly trashing on something someone put thought and effort on the public-facing outlet is met with a "cut it out" if you arent going to expand on it. I think not having to articulate your thought beyond WAAAAAA is a way more coddled position than suggesting open hostilities at least be done with an avenue for fair discussion (or just stop being openly hostile and/or realize the change didnt come from the ether and there is a person behind said change so be respectful).

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 8:39 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:40 pm I'll forgive you since you've only played a total of 3 rounds but stuff like that does happen.

Also follow-up, I had nothing better to do so I went through the last month of rounds you played in and found the following nuke ops names:

Lizard Remover
LizardRemover
The Beach Boys
Flukies

None of which break the rules nor are any variation on an insult against anyone in the game, so either it doesn't happen often enough for it to matter here or you're mistaken.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 8:48 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:39 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:40 pm I'll forgive you since you've only played a total of 3 rounds but stuff like that does happen.
Also follow-up, I had nothing better to do so I went through the last month of rounds you played in and found the following nuke ops names:

Lizard Remover
LizardRemover
The Beach Boys
Flukies

None of which break the rules nor are any variation on an insult against anyone in the game, so either it doesn't happen often enough for it to matter here or you're mistaken.

The one im thinking of was something like "GAY JOHNSON KILLERS" or something to that effect.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 8:55 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:48 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:39 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:40 pm I'll forgive you since you've only played a total of 3 rounds but stuff like that does happen.
Also follow-up, I had nothing better to do so I went through the last month of rounds you played in and found the following nuke ops names:

Lizard Remover
LizardRemover
The Beach Boys
Flukies

None of which break the rules nor are any variation on an insult against anyone in the game, so either it doesn't happen often enough for it to matter here or you're mistaken.
The one im thinking of was something like "GAY JOHNSON KILLERS" or something to that effect.

I'll try and find it. Ahelp shit like that in the future please.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:07 pm**

Cobby wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:28 pm If you go out of your way to make it known that you dislike a feature to the point youre trying to insert it into the game world such as through a nuke ops name, knowing the creator of said feature also plays, you should be doing it in a benign way or articulate it in a way that doesnt come off as you just trashing work someone put in. You can also just not say anything. Other people here are not synonymous with your personal friend group, it can come off as very rude when you approach something that someone put time in without any room for improvement, especially when you use crude language such as "shit" or "fuck X". You cannot "banter" with other people you dont know and expect all of them to give you the same positive response.

I remember people would literally walk up to me to complain about the "new chemistry policies from centcomm" and similar and, while I got a kick out of it and am pretty lighthearted, I dont think that every person who puts time into developing the game should have to undergo that type of behavior when playing let alone observing.

And mind you we are talking about blasting your opinion ingame where people are just trying to relax and have fun, there is nothing wrong with just trash talking in your own private server or what have you (although reminder that the approach isnt going to help you change it to a good compromise). Heck you are free to wordlessly downvote the PRs like normal people if you dont want to be bothered into giving your "educated" take. Heck you can just say "i dont really care for this" and be done with it, you are not entitled to make a big stink in all the wrong places because you cba to do it at the right time or in the right avenue.

It should not be contentious position that haphazardly trashing on something someone put thought and effort on the public-facing outlet is met with a "cut it out" if you arent going to expand on it. I think not having to articulate your thought beyond WAAAAAA is a way more coddled position than suggesting open hostilities at least be done with an avenue for fair discussion (or just stop being openly hostile and/or realize the change didnt come from the ether and there is a person behind said change so be respectful).

I’m gonna interject here, ***No work is above criticism***

I don’t care if you put your life savings into a project, it gets no protection. This isn’t a personal pet project, every change made affects ***EVERYONE*** so in this case everyone has every right to say whatever they want about it.

I’m glad that you were able to make it through the fires and flames of internet mean words directed at a project of yours Cobby. Nothing fundamentally bad happened because someone called cobbychem stupid, and it made the game better anyways.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:10 pm**

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:07 pm I don’t care if you put your life savings into a project, it gets no protection. This isn’t a personal pet project, every change made affects ***EVERYONE*** so in this case everyone has every right to say whatever they want about it.

Would you consider the phrase "Northstar fucking sucks" to be valid criticism?

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:12 pm**

they don't actually have the right to say whatever they want about it actually, especially not via the medium of their surname

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:14 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:10 pm
Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:07 pm I don’t care if you put your life savings into a project, it gets no protection. This isn’t a personal pet project, every change made affects ***EVERYONE*** so in this case everyone has every right to say whatever they want about it.
Would you consider the phrase "Northstar fucking sucks" to be valid criticism?

I would say so, People are allowed to have opinions even if they are wrong.

A player shouldn’t have to write out a design document to say they find a new map unpalatable. Sometimes people just think things suck, learn to cope with it and keep doing your thing.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:15 pm**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:12 pm they don't actually have the right to say whatever they want about it actually, especially not via the medium of their surname

I think it’s silly overall and blown way out of proportion.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:26 pm**

I'm entirely in agreement that names, especially station names and the like, that are directly insulting towards ooc contributors is shit and shouldn't happen, and we shouldn't be encouraging of it. But I do think the note should have focused on that aspect rather than this discussion having happened in the appeal. I think this is too generalized, and focuses on name quality generally rather than the name itself being a inappropriate.

If anything about the note should be changed, it should be that sinful shouldn't be putting that kind of thing in their name, rather than trying to redraw lines in name policy. Again.

This could have been a rather, and probably still can be, valuable way to get the rules about names slightly tweaked to deal with this sort of thing. Like the nickname policy.

I've seen a few people show up to rounds with 'Manuel-Hater' or 'Fuck Kilo' at times in their name as 'nickname'.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:28 pm**

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:29 pm "I don't like northstar" is a world of difference from "FUCK NORTHSTAR". One is an opinion and the other is abusive.

Pussy

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:30 pm**

toemas wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:28 pm
datorangebottle wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 7:29 pm "I don't like northstar" is a world of difference from "FUCK NORTHSTAR". One is an opinion and the other is abusive.
Pussy

That isn’t helping

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:32 pm**

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:30 pm That isn’t helping

Sorry

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:36 pm**

Official peanut thread title rating: 8.5/10

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:40 pm**

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:14 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:10 pm
Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:07 pm I don’t care if you put your life savings into a project, it gets no protection. This isn’t a personal pet project, every change made affects ***EVERYONE*** so in this case everyone has every right to say whatever they want about it.
Would you consider the phrase "Northstar fucking sucks" to be valid criticism?
I would say so, People are allowed to have opinions even if they are wrong.

A player shouldn’t have to write out a design document to say they find a new map unpalatable. Sometimes people just think things suck, learn to cope with it and keep doing your thing.

I think the issue here is semantic in nature. Criticism doesn't need a design document or a long, drawn out explanation. Something as simple as "I don't like Northstar, I think the hallway's too long" or "I don't like tram, the maints are too small" is criticism. "Fuck this" or "I don't like it" is an opinion, but it's not constructive. It's noise. It does nothing to actually resolve the issue, nor does it provide for interesting conversation. It's just bullshit for bullshit's sake.

"(Thing) sucks because (reason)" is criticism. "(Thing) sucks" is not.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 10:01 pm**

If you think that "fuck northstar" is verbal abuse/harassment, you aren't cut out for any sort of position of authority, period

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 11:35 pm**

"Late to the party" gang here, Sinful wrong Vekter right, don't be an ass to the community members who give you content because you can't take the time to appreciate their efforts. I can understand not liking a change, I can understand voicing concerns over public, permanent changes in the code you play on as a player, but if you want to make it a better community, do more than be a toxic asshole about it.

This community suffers from inconsiderate and apathetic people who care not about the feelings of others, who are so self-centered that they'll say ANYTHING to justify their own selfish actions or opinions. That's why I feel sick to my stomach seeing PRs that simply "remove [insert feature]", because it's so fucking lazy and it's a SPIT in the face of the people who took the time and effort to make it.

Sure, I have issues with some maps, but it's good to have fresh new features! Even if you're "ironic", saying "FUCK [YOUR EFFORTS]" is just vile human behavior, even if you want to justify it as a "nukie thing". Yes, people who create something will need to accept criticism from people when making it public, and will need to deal with the naysayers... But that is more an issue with the mindless barbarians hating against it and wanting to TAKE AWAY from the community than the creator who's put a HUNDRED HOURS of their own damn time to GIVE to the community. Pointless hate is not "criticism", it's an excuse.

A day when players stop feeling entitled to what is volunteer work, work that is only done from the kindness from someone's heart to create something greater, is a day I doubt will ever come, but fucking hell, it'd sure be nice if certain community members could just be grateful for the content in this game being created from the ground-up and offered for free, originally from little more than an atmospherics simulator to work with. It's disgusting to see creators who just want to keep this damn community alive feeling disheartened and ready to quit because some thoughtless "funny man" wanted to make everyone laugh by tarnishing their work and amounting it to nothing.

Your map's great, Chesh, and it's infuriating to see individuals who reject it simply because it's not what they're familiar with.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 11:56 pm**

Proof^

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 12:08 am**

AlamoTurtle wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 11:35 pm But that is more an issue with the mindless barbarians

Reminder that this is what the common admin and c*der thinks about the players voicing any amount of dissent.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 12:13 am**

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:07 pm I’m gonna interject here, ***No work is above criticism***

I don’t care if you put your life savings into a project, it gets no protection. This isn’t a personal pet project, every change made affects ***EVERYONE*** so in this case everyone has every right to say whatever they want about it.

I’m glad that you were able to make it through the fires and flames of internet mean words directed at a project of yours Cobby. Nothing fundamentally bad happened because someone called cobbychem stupid, and it made the game better anyways.

Criticism is fine and yes itis a personal pet project for all involved, maybe not the entire scope of ss13 but certainly every PR was done as a way to make the game better (except that one guy who made a grief PR on purpose).

Lets not obfuscate, we are both fine with criticism. Where we draw the line is if you are going out of your way to direct it to the player (or to the server that just so happens to be where said player also frequents) you are perfectly fine with that. I am not and i wouldnt really consider that a valid criticism moreso than just venting or at worse roundabout harassment, neither of which are a right for you to have the server as audience for.

Also thanks, I wasnt looking to sob story so I apologize if it came off that way. Im stubborn so i can be unphased or laugh it off but not all people can and I think the idea they need to suck it up or just not code is a bit of an eyeroller.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 12:19 am**

I greatly appreciate the support I've got through this.
To reiterate on a few points; I do not care if you dislike the North Star. It is not a kind of map that everyone will like, and I can live with that. It's unreasonable to assume all people will enjoy something experimental. If you dislike the map and think there's something that could be changed, I'm happy to hear about it if the change is constructive. What isn't criticism, and what isn't constructive, is the "FUCK X". It's just noise, it doesn't serve any purpose, and the amount I get is demoralizing.

TL;DR: Positive or negative feedback is good and helpful. Shouting hate without depth has literally 0 positive application. It serves no purpose, it adds nothing.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 12:46 am**

I like Northstar.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 12:48 am**

I'm very glad you do, people enjoying the game and what I can offer makes me happy. If there's any feedback you need to leave, there's another thread [HERE]

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 3:57 am**

The notion that people are saying that dissent is suppressed just because you can't say "FUCK X" without explaining why is...awful.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 4:25 am**

I know making an entire map is a big project but with all of the innovations which mean you don't have to scour 32 wire dirs for one of the 6 which anyone would ever use or even copy and edit airlock access from existing maps I really don't think any map is deserving of the motivation jetties. Unlike most contributions, maps, from the player standpoint, are removals as much as they are additions. Nor are maps content that only a subset of players need to interact with. I think most players are like me and only play a round on days they do play, and it can be days between a map showing up twice. I like icebox and birdshit more than the rest of the roundup but its days between me seeing either of them. I can understand why a player would want to express their frustration with how their experience has been impacted to their peers. Perhaps map votes themselves have caused this to be in player's best interest as to dissuade others from voting from their least favorite maps(one of many reasons i think the unswaying rotation was in everyone's best interest)

Also, players don't give constructive feedback for the suspected reason of some of them not having a real reason to dislike your maps. Sometimes players don't know why they dislike your map. For years, I hated delta, could not stand it, never new why until an admin ran a 'no maintenance' event and I realized that delta's maintenance was pretty terrible. I was never confident in my attempts to retool it myself but eventually melbert fixed the worst offending portions and now delta is right under birdshot & meta for best maps.
I don't dislike NorthStar. That being said I don't have fun on NorthStar. I appreciate the design of the map, maintenance on NorthStar is very unfurnished(THATS GOOD) and i like the thing you do with the rails in arrivals and the podbay where they line up with themselves and expose plating, but Northstar's layout and traffic congestion points are not conductive to fun rounds(or rounds i find fun?).
So i suppose I dislike NorthStar to the extent that its presence precludes my having fun playing space station 13, which isn't much considering I can pass the time I would have used for 2d spacemans composing space ambience for 2d spacemans check out this cancer killing /tg/
https://voca.ro/1h3hx83xlbjS
Aha you walked right into my trap
As for the note its one of those 'why appeal' lmao this isn't going to support any bans. save note appeals for the hellishly misworded escalation notes.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 5:38 am**

Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 12:08 am
AlamoTurtle wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 11:35 pm But that is more an issue with the mindless barbarians
Reminder that this is what the common admin and c*der thinks about the players voicing any amount of dissent.

If by 'voicing any amount of dissent' you mean 'screaming about hating something without saying why', sure
Don't act like a tool and you won't get called one.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 5:55 am**

I had a long post, but the page reloaded, and I lost it all, so I'm just going to post brief bullet points.

this was a dumb name for the nukies
nukies should probably have leeway for dumb names
insulting a creators creation IC is super lame
being overly brash about a creators thing ingame when you know they're there is kinda lame too
sometimes people can not like something without writing a seven-page essay with ordered topics
giving feedback should probably be better than "I don't like this", though
negativity bias is a thing
just because something is free doesn't mean that it shouldn't be criticized

I imagine most people are positive/middle of the road in regards to Northstar (or other maps), and thus don't voice their opinions. Kilo had people come out of the woodwork to defend it right before it got purged (which I still heavily disagree with removing a low pop map in favor of YET ANOTHER MID TO HIGHPOP MAP). I love Northstar, despite how much I hate z-levels.

You should probably unironically touch grass if you're getting flustered about people calling your creations shit. People will be assholes on the internet, it has always been like this, and will (probably) always will be the case. I've heard way more positive things about northstar than I've heard negative things, but I fully understand how your brain would only remember the negatives if you poured your heart and soul into something.

Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 12:08 am Reminder that this is what the common admin and c*der thinks about the players voicing any amount of dissent.

The amount of contempt I've seen coders have for the player base is absurd. I think that hating all coders is cringy, but it doesn't help when some coders are so goddamn condescending regarding feedback. I swear the more dogshit and/or controversial a PR is, the more the coder behind it starts huffing their own farts and burying their head into the dirt. It's insane. The stereotype of coders not even playing the job/server they are affecting with their PR exists for a reason.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 10:42 am**

yeah. it's wierd, some of the shitstorms that happen behind prs

null crates being removed was an awful idea i still think
reinforced glass windows and tasers being removed turned out to be a great change
CLONING being removed was an absolute amazingly positive change that had the most salt behind it i've seen in like 8 years of playing this game

i feel like it works out for the best in the end

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 1:00 pm**

I'll believe this "but but but we'll run out of coders!" Fear mongering when it happens. Once again this ain't the first time someone got what was described as "an unfair amount of toxic feedback" and I'm sure it won't be the last as we slowly march towards total hugbox. Once again I like Northstar and I think it would suck if Cheshify jumped ship but let's get real they knew what they were getting into.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 1:41 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 1:00 pm I'll believe this "but but but we'll run out of coders!" Fear mongering when it happens. Once again this ain't the first time someone got what was described as "an unfair amount of toxic feedback" and I'm sure it won't be the last as we slowly march towards total hugbox. Once again I like Northstar and I think it would suck if Cheshify jumped ship but let's get real they knew what they were getting into.

"I will sacrifice contributors in TG before I believe people who participated in open source communities telling me that's how you kill open source"

What a silly thing to say. Have you seen the starsector modding community?

Also, "not being a dick == total hugbox"
lmao

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 1:53 pm**

Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 1:00 pm I'll believe this "but but but we'll run out of coders!" Fear mongering when it happens. Once again this ain't the first time someone got what was described as "an unfair amount of toxic feedback" and I'm sure it won't be the last as we slowly march towards total hugbox. Once again I like Northstar and I think it would suck if Cheshify jumped ship but let's get real they knew what they were getting into.

Understanding that controversy can result in a great deal of bad faith arguing does not necessarily mean tolerating that. That in of itself is a particularly bad faith take, and I see no reason why telling folk who are taking it a bit far to cool their jets is a bad thing.

You can't claim to want Chesh to stay and then condemn anyone who does not want to deal with toxicity and make active attempts to control it. If you really want to see them succeed, you should want to see the same, as no contributor should have to deal with trials by fire every time they create a large project and then get no support from the communtiy while doing so. To argue otherwise is just throwing your lot in with those throwing around pointless toxicity, but doing it like a coward. You more or less admit that by claiming they should have thought twice about going ahead with the project if they were surprised by how vitriolic people can get.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:55 am The amount of contempt I've seen coders have for the player base is absurd. I think that hating all coders is cringy, but it doesn't help when some coders are so goddamn condescending regarding feedback.

Distressingly, and I know I already talked to you at length about this on discord, we have cycles of resentment and vitriol within the community. I think this is just a natural defense mechanism for some people, and I don't think you should hold it against someone for being on the defensive if they're getting a lot of particularly intense negativity directed towards them. I've certainly seen my fair share of it, and I know why some people will opt to go that way rather than try and engage with players they may already assume probably don't have their best interests in mind.

To deal with it, I usually focus on why they seem to be upset. If they're not being forthcoming about it or cagey about it, it's not worth worrying about. They themselves probably don't have a strong grasp of the reasons why either, and may not want to divulge that fact.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 2:10 pm**

conrad wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 1:41 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 1:00 pm I'll believe this "but but but we'll run out of coders!" Fear mongering when it happens. Once again this ain't the first time someone got what was described as "an unfair amount of toxic feedback" and I'm sure it won't be the last as we slowly march towards total hugbox. Once again I like Northstar and I think it would suck if Cheshify jumped ship but let's get real they knew what they were getting into.
"I will sacrifice contributors in TG before I believe people who participated in open source communities telling me that's how you kill open source"

What a silly thing to say. Have you seen the starsector modding community?

Also, "not being a dick == total hugbox"
lmao

Listen I know your new around here so allow me to sooth your worries. This is nothing new, this aint gonna kill the community, they'll be new people who'll contribute to the codebase even without treating them like children. How do I know this is the case? The first PR was made 11 years ago and it's been going strong without worrying about the "toxicity of the community."

Also the starsector modding community? I don't know too much about it but from that post that RedBaron made it sure looks like they could use awhole lot more pushback. It looks alot like what ended up happening to the modded minecraft scene where abunch of modders get a big head act like they can do no wrong and burn down the community hilariously enough they'll do so saying "I love criticism you guys are just being toxic." That kills communities, that drama drives away players who are the core of any game.

FInally if you think that just saying "fuck northstar" makes you a total dick who you agree ought to be silenced in the name of protecting the fragile ego of the coders I'd ask that you leave the community before the brainrot you have spreads.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 1:53 pm Understanding that controversy can result in a great deal of bad faith arguing does not necessarily mean tolerating that. That in of itself is a particularly bad faith take, and I see no reason why telling folk who are taking it a bit far to cool their jets is a bad thing.

You can't claim to want Chesh to stay and then condemn anyone who does not want to deal with toxicity and make active attempts to control it. If you really want to see them succeed, you should want to see the same, as no contributor should have to deal with trials by fire every time they create a large project and then get no support from the communtiy while doing so. To argue otherwise is just throwing your lot in with those throwing around pointless toxicity, but doing it like a coward. You more or less admit that by claiming they should have thought twice about going ahead with the project if they were surprised by how vitriolic people can get.

So here's the issue ok, I don't see saying "fuck northstar" as toxic and I espically don't want to see it "controlled" because that in this community is keyword for word filter. I explictly told Cheshify to not deal with the toxicity, to just ignore them. I also don't know what this "get no support" meme comes from, from the PR to the forum page you can see tons of support just because people on a server they don't even play on say something doesn't erase that.

Also give me a break with calling people saying "fuck northstar" as ""vitriolic"" like are you real right now? Like I was wrong about us becoming a hugbox we're already there! Take my hand I'll get you out of there!

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 4:40 pm**

We should change all our servers to be meta only for the snowflakes like sinful

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 4:45 pm**

2. Holier Than Thou, plebs!- The long-term health of any server is based primarily around the quality of the staff. Not only that, but the attitude of the staff members rubs off on the playerbase. I have found that many of the staff members are caustic, cynical, and patronizing to the point that any offense is frequently met with a "What the fuck are you doing you fucking retard here's a ban, don't even try explaining" or "Guilty until proven innocent" response. I've been banned before for decent reasons, however I can't count the number of times that I've skirted or actually been given a ban for completely garbage reasons. It seems as though some staff have this attitude where rather than taking care of something they care about, they have been FORCED into monitoring people who they just think of as troublemaking retards, rather than humans prone to mistakes. Not only that, but I don't really think that the admins acknowledge the fact that they can make mistakes themselves. I'd like to drop a few names of the worst offenders in my opinion. Owegno, Okand37, Saegrimr, Alphabetaa. Basically anyone who does the "*bwoink* Hey, got a minute" meme, for the most part (some exceptions). So cut the shit. You're no better than anyone else in this shitty game. You spend hours hunched in front of a monitor just like us, the only difference is you can make people not play a 2d spess game. You have to understand that you have a direct impact on the attitude and mood of the server. And the "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, INCORRECT, FUCK YOU CRIMINAL SCUM" attitude is just awful- Sometimes, people make stupid choices and put someone into crit in the heat of the moment. Sometimes, people get angry after being harassed by the same person for a few rounds and strike back. People are prone to human emotion, and that yields mistakes. You have to understand this and respond appropriately- cutting everything off at the head is NOT the way to go. The permabans should really be reserved for the pure garbage: the 10-connection, 10-note 3-ban people who show up only to grief. The people who go straight from the arrival shuttle to welderbomb. The people who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to shit everything up. I like to think I play the game well. Sure, I fuck up now and then and make mistakes. I certainly have made some larger mistakes. But it's not like I don't have good moments as well. I'm not a net loss to the server. The people who fuck up, show remorse, and actually do put in effort to being good most rounds are just as good as those with clean record. We're all human. (except for liggers, fuck liggers)

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 5:29 pm**

Domitius wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 4:40 pm We should change all our servers to be meta only for the snowflakes like sinful

Metastation May. Let's make it happen.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:03 pm**

Capsandi wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 4:45 pm 2. Holier Than Thou, plebs!- The long-term health of any server is based primarily around the quality of the staff. Not only that, but the attitude of the staff members rubs off on the playerbase. I have found that many of the staff members are caustic, cynical, and patronizing to the point that any offense is frequently met with a "What the fuck are you doing you fucking retard here's a ban, don't even try explaining" or "Guilty until proven innocent" response. I've been banned before for decent reasons, however I can't count the number of times that I've skirted or actually been given a ban for completely garbage reasons. It seems as though some staff have this attitude where rather than taking care of something they care about, they have been FORCED into monitoring people who they just think of as troublemaking retards, rather than humans prone to mistakes. Not only that, but I don't really think that the admins acknowledge the fact that they can make mistakes themselves. I'd like to drop a few names of the worst offenders in my opinion. Owegno, Okand37, Saegrimr, Alphabetaa. Basically anyone who does the "*bwoink* Hey, got a minute" meme, for the most part (some exceptions). So cut the shit. You're no better than anyone else in this shitty game. You spend hours hunched in front of a monitor just like us, the only difference is you can make people not play a 2d spess game. You have to understand that you have a direct impact on the attitude and mood of the server. And the "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, INCORRECT, FUCK YOU CRIMINAL SCUM" attitude is just awful- Sometimes, people make stupid choices and put someone into crit in the heat of the moment. Sometimes, people get angry after being harassed by the same person for a few rounds and strike back. People are prone to human emotion, and that yields mistakes. You have to understand this and respond appropriately- cutting everything off at the head is NOT the way to go. The permabans should really be reserved for the pure garbage: the 10-connection, 10-note 3-ban people who show up only to grief. The people who go straight from the arrival shuttle to welderbomb. The people who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to shit everything up. I like to think I play the game well. Sure, I fuck up now and then and make mistakes. I certainly have made some larger mistakes. But it's not like I don't have good moments as well. I'm not a net loss to the server. The people who fuck up, show remorse, and actually do put in effort to being good most rounds are just as good as those with clean record. We're all human. (except for liggers, fuck liggers)

go off

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 1:49 am**

Capsandi wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 4:45 pm 2. Holier Than Thou, plebs!- The long-term health of any server is based primarily around the quality of the staff. Not only that, but the attitude of the staff members rubs off on the playerbase. I have found that many of the staff members are caustic, cynical, and patronizing to the point that any offense is frequently met with a "What the fuck are you doing you fucking retard here's a ban, don't even try explaining" or "Guilty until proven innocent" response. I've been banned before for decent reasons, however I can't count the number of times that I've skirted or actually been given a ban for completely garbage reasons. It seems as though some staff have this attitude where rather than taking care of something they care about, they have been FORCED into monitoring people who they just think of as troublemaking retards, rather than humans prone to mistakes. Not only that, but I don't really think that the admins acknowledge the fact that they can make mistakes themselves. I'd like to drop a few names of the worst offenders in my opinion. Owegno, Okand37, Saegrimr, Alphabetaa. Basically anyone who does the "*bwoink* Hey, got a minute" meme, for the most part (some exceptions). So cut the shit. You're no better than anyone else in this shitty game. You spend hours hunched in front of a monitor just like us, the only difference is you can make people not play a 2d spess game. You have to understand that you have a direct impact on the attitude and mood of the server. And the "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, INCORRECT, FUCK YOU CRIMINAL SCUM" attitude is just awful- Sometimes, people make stupid choices and put someone into crit in the heat of the moment. Sometimes, people get angry after being harassed by the same person for a few rounds and strike back. People are prone to human emotion, and that yields mistakes. You have to understand this and respond appropriately- cutting everything off at the head is NOT the way to go. The permabans should really be reserved for the pure garbage: the 10-connection, 10-note 3-ban people who show up only to grief. The people who go straight from the arrival shuttle to welderbomb. The people who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to shit everything up. I like to think I play the game well. Sure, I fuck up now and then and make mistakes. I certainly have made some larger mistakes. But it's not like I don't have good moments as well. I'm not a net loss to the server. The people who fuck up, show remorse, and actually do put in effort to being good most rounds are just as good as those with clean record. We're all human. (except for liggers, fuck liggers)

bars

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 2:00 am**

Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 2:10 pm Listen I know your new around here so allow me to sooth your worries. This is nothing new, this aint gonna kill the community, they'll be new people who'll contribute to the codebase even without treating them like children. How do I know this is the case? The first PR was made 11 years ago and it's been going strong without worrying about the "toxicity of the community."

Listen I know you're new here, so allow me to explain to you that the last 11 years are littered with the bodies of extremely talented developers who quit solely becuase they couldn't handle the rigmarole of having every fuck face like you saying their passion and work output is garbage you slimy little git.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 2:37 am**

oranges wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 2:00 am
Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 2:10 pm Listen I know your new around here so allow me to sooth your worries. This is nothing new, this aint gonna kill the community, they'll be new people who'll contribute to the codebase even without treating them like children. How do I know this is the case? The first PR was made 11 years ago and it's been going strong without worrying about the "toxicity of the community."
Listen I know you're new here, so allow me to explain to you that the last 11 years are littered with the bodies of extremely talented developers who quit solely becuase they couldn't handle the rigmarole of having every fuck face like you saying their passion and work output is garbage you slimy little git.

Reminder that you don't belong here fruit. This place is for players fuck off back to the git and code me up something fun to play with.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 2:52 am**

Boot wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 2:37 am
oranges wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 2:00 am
Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 2:10 pm Listen I know your new around here so allow me to sooth your worries. This is nothing new, this aint gonna kill the community, they'll be new people who'll contribute to the codebase even without treating them like children. How do I know this is the case? The first PR was made 11 years ago and it's been going strong without worrying about the "toxicity of the community."
Listen I know you're new here, so allow me to explain to you that the last 11 years are littered with the bodies of extremely talented developers who quit solely becuase they couldn't handle the rigmarole of having every fuck face like you saying their passion and work output is garbage you slimy little git.
Reminder that you don't belong here fruit. This place is for players fuck off back to the git and code me up something fun to play with.

lol
lmao even

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 4:00 am**

Boot wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 2:37 am
oranges wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 2:00 am
Boot wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 2:10 pm Listen I know your new around here so allow me to sooth your worries. This is nothing new, this aint gonna kill the community, they'll be new people who'll contribute to the codebase even without treating them like children. How do I know this is the case? The first PR was made 11 years ago and it's been going strong without worrying about the "toxicity of the community."
Listen I know you're new here, so allow me to explain to you that the last 11 years are littered with the bodies of extremely talented developers who quit solely becuase they couldn't handle the rigmarole of having every fuck face like you saying their passion and work output is garbage you slimy little git.

Reminder that you don't belong here fruit. This place is for players fuck off back to the git and code me up something fun to play with.

Theres only one hero we can call to hopefully scare Boot off… ApplicationMan

/tg/Station 13

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