/tg/Station 13

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Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:28 am I understand that you have played this game for a significant time, but I haven't gone digging back a decade or fourteen years for these notes. Just a couple years. I acknowledge still, that a couple of years is quite some time to be looking back, but when I look at such a time frame on any other player, I have yet to see a similar case of one breaking the same rule 6 times.

14 days is a long time, even more so when you're basing it off the last 2 years. Fading notes are not a real concept. Especially with an active player like Crag.

It's so baffling that Craig seems to be “down range” as it were because he’s one of the better Manuel players IMO (even if I don't see him a lot.)

Like, yeah, Craig can be a bit of a hothead but at least it makes sense when he’s frustrated. It's not like he’s calling people retards every five seconds or anything.

Notes fading doesn't even matter because subconsciously admins are going to be more likely to escalate if someone has a history of notes, even if the notes were six months ago. A “technically clean record if you just ignore anything six months ago” isn't remotely the same as “has literally never gotten a note” and it never will be as long as notes don't expire.

As I've said before, if you don't live as long as Methuselah without getting a note, it will be used against you. It really reinforces players' opinions that it is in fact a punishment.

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:44 am As I've said before, if you don't live as long as Methuselah without getting a note, it will be used against you. It really reinforces players' opinions that it is in fact a punishment.

It's one of the most frustrating things about the non-uniformity of how notes are viewed. We have admins that think:

Notes aren't a punishment (lol)
Notes are a punishment
Notes are kind of a punishment but only for repeat behavior, otherwise a warning (ehhhh)

i said on the first page of this thread that i'd like to see expiring notes become the norm. it's already how i use them. lots of the new admins also feel the same way. there is not much except the most egregious of rulebreaks that i would consider worthy of being a permanent part of someone's record.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:49 am Notes are kind of a punishment but only for repeat behavior, otherwise a warning (ehhhh)

That's exactly what they are. They're a catalyst for rule 7 bans.

I'm on dendy's boat tho. Expiring notes are dope, and very easy to think of the length and apply.

conrad wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:07 am

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:49 am Notes are kind of a punishment but only for repeat behavior, otherwise a warning (ehhhh)

That's exactly what they are. They're a catalyst for rule 7 bans.

I'm on dendy's boat tho. Expiring notes are dope, and very easy to think of the length and apply.

I agree, it's just that sometimes it leads to “Uhm you did this thing and you also did it 8 months ago therefore ban”

Obviously, it should depend on the thing (aka massive rule break vs questionable escalation, for instance)

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:53 am i said on the first page of this thread that i'd like to see expiring notes become the norm. it's already how i use them. lots of the new admins also feel the same way. there is not much except the most egregious of rulebreaks that i would consider worthy of being a permanent part of someone's record.

... but don't admins see expired notes anyway?

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:32 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:53 am i said on the first page of this thread that i'd like to see expiring notes become the norm. it's already how i use them. lots of the new admins also feel the same way. there is not much except the most egregious of rulebreaks that i would consider worthy of being a permanent part of someone's record.

... but don't admins see expired notes anyway?

So normal notes """expire"" after 6 months. And you need to press a tab to view them, expiring notes just get deleted.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:35 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:32 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:53 am i said on the first page of this thread that i'd like to see expiring notes become the norm. it's already how i use them. lots of the new admins also feel the same way. there is not much except the most egregious of rulebreaks that i would consider worthy of being a permanent part of someone's record.

... but don't admins see expired notes anyway?

So normal notes """expire"" after 6 months. And you need to press a tab to view them, expiring notes just get deleted.

Then I've been lied to... admemes told me on other threads that setting expiration dates for notes would be pointless since admins would still see them, but the players themselves wouldn't.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:37 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:35 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:32 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 6:53 am i said on the first page of this thread that i'd like to see expiring notes become the norm. it's already how i use them. lots of the new admins also feel the same way. there is not much except the most egregious of rulebreaks that i would consider worthy of being a permanent part of someone's record.

... but don't admins see expired notes anyway?

So normal notes """expire"" after 6 months. And you need to press a tab to view them, expiring notes just get deleted.

Then I've been lied to... admemes told me on other threads that setting expiration dates for notes would be pointless since admins would still see them, but the players themselves wouldn't.

Let me double check that I'm right, it's how I've always understood them but I feel like I need to check now.

I believe the problem is that while they are no longer viewable in game, several of the external tools don't pay attention to the expiry info mostly from a lack of developer time availability to add it.

and they aren't actually removed from the underlying database tables, only set as "expired"

It was not something that was designed in a master planned way, so we never considered all the edge cases, otherwise I would have made the ban/note table a view over the real table with expiry constraints forced on the view so that tooling had no choice in obeying or not obeying the expiry rules.

However hte problem is that to do that now still requires effort from skilled people that isn't readily available.

So they're not there in game and admins can't view them but they're available in external tools? Thought they were hard deleted fr

oranges wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:56 am I believe the problem is that while they are no longer viewable in game, several of the external tools don't pay attention to the expiry info mostly from a lack of developer time availability to add it.

and they aren't actually removed from the underlying database tables, only set as "expired"

It was not something that was designed in a master planned way, so we never considered all the edge cases, otherwise I would have made the ban/note table a view over the real table with expiry constraints forced on the view so that tooling had no choice in obeying or not obeying the expiry rules.

However hte problem is that to do that now still requires effort from skilled people that isn't readily available.

badass, appreciate the clarification boss, ty!

i feel like i need to remove the guide to avoiding bans because apparently trying to avoid conflict and meet common ground with people just puts a target on your back

why is aggro so cringe? how do I become that cringe?

Epoc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:10 pm why is aggro so cringe? how do I become that cringe?

He had to endure 3 entire days of this gif in this very peanut thread



and then he snapped, look at the 71 hour difference

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:50 pm Alright. Thank you for your time, Sightld2, and for your leniency. I will try to disconnect earlier in the future.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:50 pm I want this ban removed. I want this note removed. I want headmin review. This is an unfortunate fact that I now have to get headmins invovled in every interaction I have with server staff in an attempt to get every note against me removed because otherwise someone is going to use it in the future to fuck me over. My prior behavior of just eating the punishment and saying sorry I'll try to be better in the future is no longer viable because trying not to raise a shitstorm and seeking peaceful resolutions has seemingly made me a target.

You cant blame him, any human would fold under those conditions

I don't agree with notes expiring entirely, but admins should be forced to do something really annoying to see notes that are older than like a year

Also if you have to reference a note that's more than 6 months old you're a poopoo head unless they're CONSTANTLY accruing notes

Broly's doublepost above is a masterclass in doublethinking.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:58 am I don't agree with notes expiring entirely, but admins should be forced to do something really annoying to see notes that are older than like a year

You are a certified genius.




With devilish regards
-BONERMASTER

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:58 am I don't agree with notes expiring entirely, but admins should be forced to do something really annoying to see notes that are older than like a year

I feel like there should be some sort of system where really minor notes can expire but major onces can't or simply fade. So overestimation leading to a note should 100% fade over time, a big rule 8 or rule 11 probably shouldn't (world of difference between saying something risque in OOC versus being a sexual creep IC for instance). Granted, it's way easier to simply just have notes not fade at all I guess.

But then it leads to situations like this where it comes off as them digging through the filing cabinets to try and justify a ban.

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:14 pm

Epoc wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:10 pm why is aggro so cringe? how do I become that cringe?

He had to endure 3 entire days of this gif in this very peanut thread



and then he snapped, look at the 71 hour difference

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:50 pm Alright. Thank you for your time, Sightld2, and for your leniency. I will try to disconnect earlier in the future.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:50 pm I want this ban removed. I want this note removed. I want headmin review. This is an unfortunate fact that I now have to get headmins invovled in every interaction I have with server staff in an attempt to get every note against me removed because otherwise someone is going to use it in the future to fuck me over. My prior behavior of just eating the punishment and saying sorry I'll try to be better in the future is no longer viable because trying not to raise a shitstorm and seeking peaceful resolutions has seemingly made me a target.

You cant blame him, any human would fold under those conditions

lmao

i for one applaud him for it, this is a bad ban and he needs to fight these since someone of his temperament is 1000% on the chopping block on manny

This is what you get for going up against Imam Dirk. You can't tell me a one week server ban is more just than a two week team antag ban.
If you don't want to play team antag you shall not play team antag.
See how merciful this justice is?

Hey dirk you dont seem to have understood the context with my last post so allow me to reiterate: shut the fuck up you dullard. If you actually read the fuckin thread, you god damn imbecile, you would see the original punishment handed out was a 2 week server ban AND a coterminous permanent antag ban, you pinhead dipshit. Please stop dummyposting, you sillyhead, as no one is impressed or amused by your display of ignorance.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:19 pm You can't tell me a one week server ban is more just than a two week team antag ban.

I can and I do. Team antags exist in like 10% of rounds. The server exists in 100% of rounds.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:37 pm rage

ok but y tho

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:37 pm Hey dirk you dont seem to have understood the context with my last post so allow me to reiterate: shut the fuck up you dullard. If you actually read the fuckin thread, you god damn imbecile, you would see the original punishment handed out was a 2 week server ban AND a coterminous permanent antag ban, you pinhead dipshit. Please stop dummyposting, you sillyhead, as no one is impressed or amused by your display of ignorance.

He was literally negotiating with you in the ahelp to just do a team antag ban instead of a server ban.

AGAIN, you fucking walnut, the original fucking BWOINK was not a "i am going to ban you for 2 weeks or give you a team antag ban", it was a gentle nudge towards "go kill people or you will be punished." the 14 day original ban length is because I got attacked by a slaughter demon while responding to the bwoink and said IM RESPONDING TO AN ADMIN BWOINK YOU DIPSHIT, FUCK OFF, and then i went into crit and said "i just wanted to play the fucking game", DNR'd, and disconnected.

THE BAN ITSELF HAS NOTHING TO ACTUALLY DO WITH CONVERSION ANTAGS, YOU FUCKING COMMUNIST MORON. I WOULD HAVE RECEIVED THE SAME PUNISHMENT IF SIGHTLD2 BWOINKED ME WITH "WHAT IS THE SQUARE ROOT OF 2047?" AND I TOLD A SLAUGHTER DEMON "FUCK OFF BUD I AM DOING AN ADMIN'S MATH HOMEWORK" AND WENT INTO CRIT AND SAID "DAMN I HATE MATH" BEFORE GOING DNR

≈45.24 btw

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:57 pm≈45.24 btw

thanks conrad

I must've fell for the classic trap of people including way too many irrelevant details in their appeal how will I ever recover

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:12 pm I made 8 posts in a peanut thread without reading and understanding the FNR post

It'll happen again.

dunno how im supposed to accrue Good Boy Hours 2 years ago to make my notes fade like apparently everyone elses do when you keep fucking banning me for excessive periods of time and making me not want to play the game so as to not deal with your bullshit politicking, tim. maybe i should invent a fucking time machine?

Inshallah you now see that to refuse the orders of a head rev is to embellish upon the head revs' orders and to embellish upon the head revs' orders is to deny the perfection of their flashing lights and to deny the perfection of their flashing lights is apostasy and apostasy is punishable by banishment.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:59 pm Inshallah you now see that to refuse the orders of a head rev is to embellish upon the head revs' orders and to embellish upon the head revs' orders is to deny the perfection of their flashing lights and to deny the perfection of their flashing lights is apostasy and apostasy is punishable by banishment.

Assalam Alaikum brozzer, but Sūrah ar-ʾRevulūšiyyūn clearly states that actions should be undertaken for the good of the revolution as a whole, head revolutionaries are not infallible for their materialistic thoughts can be influenced by Shaitan and thus they can command their followers to commit actions which would not benefit the revolution, followers of the revolution should generally follow the orders of the head revolutionary, but should also be free to question orders which would not benefit the spirit of the almighty and all-beneficent revolution.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:55 pm AGAIN, you fucking walnut, the original fucking BWOINK was not a "i am going to ban you for 2 weeks or give you a team antag ban", it was a gentle nudge towards "go kill people or you will be punished." the 14 day original ban length is because I got attacked by a slaughter demon while responding to the bwoink and said IM RESPONDING TO AN ADMIN BWOINK YOU DIPSHIT, FUCK OFF, and then i went into crit and said "i just wanted to play the fucking game", DNR'd, and disconnected.

THE BAN ITSELF HAS NOTHING TO ACTUALLY DO WITH CONVERSION ANTAGS, YOU FUCKING COMMUNIST MORON. I WOULD HAVE RECEIVED THE SAME PUNISHMENT IF SIGHTLD2 BWOINKED ME WITH "WHAT IS THE SQUARE ROOT OF 2047?" AND I TOLD A SLAUGHTER DEMON "FUCK OFF BUD I AM DOING AN ADMIN'S MATH HOMEWORK" AND WENT INTO CRIT AND SAID "DAMN I HATE MATH" BEFORE GOING DNR

you have a massive victim complex bro
have you considered the fact that you might actually be the problem here?
tons of people manage to go without ICK OCKing and having little tizzy fits every time they get conversion antag'd
it's part of the game, if you don't like it, simply stop playing

I’m just disappointed we had to distract the headmins from working on silicon policy.

Epoc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 5:16 pm you have a massive victim complex bro
have you considered the fact that you might actually be the problem here?
tons of people manage to go without ICK OCKing and having little tizzy fits every time they get conversion antag'd
it's part of the game, if you don't like it, simply stop playing

L take
“if you didn’t wanna get a permaban for IC OOC you shouldn’t have IC OOCed”
how’s the admin glizzy taste

"you should take a break if you are getting this upset with the game"

*Takes a break*

"You didn't play enough during this period of time for us to know if you're hitler or not"

a no-win scenario created by sociopathic power tripping backstabbing rats.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:12 pm a no-win scenario created by sociopathic power tripping backstabbing rats.

just to be clear, you choose to be here and do this to yourself, right?
please re-read this and get a feel for how unhinged you sound

Dumb frogposter. Go prepare for brumation and burrow in mud instead of wasting bandwidth with your shit takes before you freeze to death this winter.

Epoc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:15 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:12 pm a no-win scenario created by sociopathic power tripping backstabbing rats.

just to be clear, you choose to be here and do this to yourself, right?
please re-read this and get a feel for how unhinged you sound

Another L take
“admins have wronged this player but it’s their fault for being here”

my god epoc you’re better than this cmon

crag for head headmin
if nothing else the bizarre yet highly topical and cutting insults will make it worth it

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:23 pm

Epoc wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:15 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 7:12 pm a no-win scenario created by sociopathic power tripping backstabbing rats.

just to be clear, you choose to be here and do this to yourself, right?
please re-read this and get a feel for how unhinged you sound

Another L take
“admins have wronged this player but it’s their fault for being here”

my god epoc you’re better than this cmon

I have to preface this by saying I don't get the length of fourteen or even eight days but still...
If crag played the game as intended he wouldn't have gotten ahelped. If he said okay I'll be a team antag now to the admin it would have ended. If he didn't double down on not being team antag he would have been done by the time the demon attacked him. If he didn't say a bunch of ooc stuff while getting killed by the demon he wouldn't have gotten banned.
That's a lot of opportunities to deescalate.
And we've got people here comparing getting humiliated by Usher flirting with your wife to this incident and accepting the admin halving the ban on appeal.
You're comparing the most milquetoast boondocks character to the guy raging about a game mode he's familiar with, as if any of you who got noted/banned for doing the same would've had a shot at getting the note deleted.
Yeah the admins here are so biased against crag that they lessened the ban against him when he appealed it after he squandered like four chances to avoid getting banhammered during the match, and then you all started acting like he was a punk for actually taking it in stride and reacting reasonably to it for the first day or two. A good bunch of peer influences you lot are.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:01 pm I have to preface this by saying I don't get the length of fourteen or even eight days but still...

Let me stop you there. That’s all that matters. The fact they got shafted for such a minor issue, using 2 year old notes as the justification.

You know why I think they got banned for 14 days over OOC IC? I think it’s because they disconnected during the ticket, and that pissed the admin off. It’s as simple as that.

See, when you disconnect during a ticket, it undermines the admin’s sense of importance and power. Technically speaking it’s allowed, it just takes away your side of the story. But for an issue like this, there’s really no “side of the story” needed, so Crag, already understandably pissed off, disconnected.

Admins don't get pissed if you leave halfway through the ticket, if anything you made the job easier.

Don't be absurd.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:12 pm Admins don't get pissed if you leave halfway through the ticket, if anything you made the job easier.

Don't be absurd.

You actually made their job harder because now they have to logdive more to piece together what happened on their own.

Unless they’re the sort of admin that just assumes the ahelper is right until proven otherwise, in which case sure it makes it easier for the admin if other party disconnects, but they’re also a bad admin if they do that.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:08 pm You know why I think they got banned for 14 days over OOC IC? I think it’s because they disconnected during the ticket, and that pissed the admin off. It’s as simple as that.

See, when you disconnect during a ticket, it undermines the admin’s sense of importance and power-

You can disagree with me and the decisions I made, and it can be just that. You don't have to come around swinging conspiracy theories about my temperament, intentions, and the reasons I made those decisions. I don't understand why you have to immediately jump to labelling me as bad-tempered, self-important, etc. You don't know anything about me. You disagree with the things I did, and that is all it has to be.

I can appreciate, that in your mind an injustice happened here, and that's upsetting. That you don't understand exactly why I made the decisions I did. But I don't think its fair to then turn around and attack my character over those things.

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:29 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:08 pm You know why I think they got banned for 14 days over OOC IC? I think it’s because they disconnected during the ticket, and that pissed the admin off. It’s as simple as that.

See, when you disconnect during a ticket, it undermines the admin’s sense of importance and power-

You can disagree with me and the decisions I made, and it can be just that. You don't have to come around swinging conspiracy theories about my temperament, intentions, and the reasons I made those decisions. I don't understand why you have to immediately jump to labelling me as bad-tempered, self-important, etc. You don't know anything about me. You disagree with the things I did, and that is all it has to be.

I can appreciate, that in your mind an injustice happened here, and that's upsetting. That you don't understand exactly why I made the decisions I did. But I don't think its fair to then turn around and attack my character over those things.

I don’t have anything against you, I don’t really even know you. I’m just saying what I believe to be true.

14 days for OOC IC is insane. Pretty much everyone here agrees at least with that much. The next obvious question is “why the fuck did they get 14 days.” Even with two prior OOC IC notes it wouldn’t explain that length.

But what would explain it is the player being hostile and then disconnecting instantly after you try to speak nicely to them. That could explain slapping them extra hard out of anger, and Timber even insinuated that with his “admin goodwill” explanation, so you have headmin support even if that’s what happened, which I think it was.

Yeah, looking at someone's words and actions and attacking their character is what admins do, sinfulbliss.