/tg/Station 13

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Ban itself seems bullshit but jeff has hit that time of note critical mass
if Manny loses its most active hos main then someone will have to fill the gap and I really don't want to play hos more

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:19 pm

LiarGG wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:02 pm I wonder if the mental effect of seeing 12 pellet hits plays a role in here too, because shotgun logs makes every shell seem like the dude is gunning people with an AA12 full auto.

It's just seemingly adding a firing log for every pellet that hit when it should only do it once for when the while cloud lands. The best way to view the logs is to just count every second span as a separate shell of pellets. Its messy for sure, but it's still only two shots.

Oh no, I am fully aware of that, but the ahelp chain made it seem like lowrp was not as familiar with this logging and I wonder if seeing potentially 12 shots fired left a more negative impression of Jeff and could be a part of the reason why it escalated as it did. Just a ramble about how presenting data could lead to different conclusions.

There should be some precedent about bans and notes being strictly about what was written in the ban or note (or at least the bwoink)

Jeff seems to have moderately successfully appealed the use of the shotgun, but now it's not just about the use of the shotgun, it's also about giving the shotgun away.
This has the potential to look a lot like "if admins want someone gone, they will keep 'finding' reasons to justify it".

Which has the potential to erode player's trust of admins by a lot.

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:29 pm This has the potential to erode player's trust of admins by a lot.

Not just potential, it already has eroded trust, Dendy's already mentioned how players would concoct wild theories in Discord. I've already expressed my disapproval in this thread and I can assure you, I am hardly the only one, the people who have posted about their disappointment in this ban are only a fraction of the amount of people who disapprove.

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:29 pm There should be some precedent about bans and notes being strictly about what was written in the ban or note (or at least the bwoink)

Jeff seems to have moderately successfully appealed the use of the shotgun, but now it's not just about the use of the shotgun, it's also about giving the shotgun away.
This has the potential to look a lot like "if admins want someone gone, they will keep 'finding' reasons to justify it".

Which has the potential to erode player's trust of admins by a lot.

They did it a couple times, and at first the response was "hmm I don't know if I like that, but ok we'll trust you this time"

And then it has become a common thing where it all boils down to something that wasn't talked about in the note or in the ticket or whatever. The trust is already gone.

JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:46 am

xzero314 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:42 am In my hundreds of hours of sec officer. I can say easily that Jeff Gaiman is one of the BEST Hos players I have seen. Time and time again I have seen them RP out ENTIRE STORY ARCS in a round. I have seen them do their best to make the round interesting still for Antags that have been caught. When you are a Sec officer and Jeff is the hos you can be sure that if you are trying to do your job Jeff will ALWAYS have your back. You can be sure Jeff will not tolerate shit sec. You can always rely on Jeff to make the tough calls and to deliver concise orders.

The Idea that Jeff is simply a power gamer that is here to get frags couldn't be further from W R O N G. I have personally witnessed Jeff receive and come back from two separate sec job bans and he improved after BOTH TIMES. I think its a massive MASSIVE Shame that the Admins have failed to notice this improvement and genuine good faith sec play from Jeff. I think that like many people, myself included. Jeff enjoys making 2d spess man horizontal. I think they have only improved over time in reigning in this desire as Hos. Countless good memories and gimmicks and stories have been had on Manuel because of Jeff's HOS gameplay.

You will not find a more consistent HOS in all of manuel. This is a massive loss for the community and the server.

Genuinely, you don't know how much this means to me. The fact that I know people like having me around is the only reason why I even bother fighting out these tiring appeals. I have a 100 reasons for preferring manuel over the tg LRP servers, more than just what blacklist said (even though he is correct about that lol), but at this point more than anything it's the people and the community. <3

Jeff I know that you might not remember this, but the first shift I played on Manuel, I played a paramedic, and I follow sec around and healed them. You were the hos, and I tried to kill you with a belt. You threw me into a cell and I tried one more time. You then laughed and brought me into the shuttle in cuffs. I was my favorite shift to date because you didn’t kill me, and you are the one to move me from Sybil to Manuel, for better of worse. You are my favorite security player and I hope you get unbanned. Also you were the one to teach me the basics of being an officer, and it’s great to be an officer when you are the HOS.

I'm mostly just bothered because it seems like Jaeden is improving in a few ways and it bugs me to see us snipe someone for something like this when they're clearly putting in effort.

I also hate that "Hey this is fine to do but because you have notes you're not allowed to do it". Sec is either able to use the shotgun to subdue people or they aren't. I hate hate hate hate hate hate the idea that because of a note history someone isn't allowed to use the shotgun to subdue people because it does more than 0 dmg.

ok so using the shotgun can get you banned in the modern era
jesus christ

kieth4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 5:25 pm I also hate that "Hey this is fine to do but because you have notes you're not allowed to do it". Sec is either able to use the shotgun to subdue people or they aren't. I hate hate hate hate hate hate the idea that because of a note history someone isn't allowed to use the shotgun to subdue people because it does more than 0 dmg.

This is why notes are punishment btw. Not because if you do the same thing again you get a harsher punishment, but because you are now held to a stricter set of invisible rules that admins will whack you with

Sec players should go on strike until they get better treatment. Go assistant and run tabletop in the library while the station burns to the ground for a few rounds.

warbluke wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:13 pm Sec players should go on strike until they get better treatment. Go assistant and run tabletop in the library while the station burns to the ground for a few rounds.

That's what I suggested as a result of the "sec must do their jobs" ruling but instead of going assistant they would take up sec slots but then I was told if I did that I would be banned.

Not a sec player, do it, go on strike, sec players deserve better.

Maybe I will be the next controversial ban that'll have a extremely hot peanut thread made about it

BonChoi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:30 pm Maybe I will be the next controversial ban that'll have a extremely hot peanut thread made about it

please don't break any rules to prove a point. it's infinitely better to just not sign up as security. as bullshit as this ban is, something like that is going to get the ringleader targeted for a perma ban, whether this gets overturned or not. try to get people to avoid signing up instead, per rules it allows players to valid hunt antags anyway.
Based on the support Jeff is receiving, i highly doubt the ban will stick, whether lorwp backs out or a headmin steps in.

Redbert wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:35 pm

BonChoi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:30 pm Maybe I will be the next controversial ban that'll have a extremely hot peanut thread made about it

please don't break any rules to prove a point. it's infinitely better to just not sign up as security. as bullshit as this ban is, something like that is going to get the ringleader targeted for a perma ban, whether this gets overturned or not. try to get people to avoid signing up instead, per rules it allows players to valid hunt antags anyway.

Mhm, a proper strike, don't sign up for any security positions.

Redbert wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:35 pm

BonChoi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:30 pm Maybe I will be the next controversial ban that'll have a extremely hot peanut thread made about it

please don't break any rules to prove a point. it's infinitely better to just not sign up as security. as bullshit as this ban is, something like that is going to get the ringleader targeted for a perma ban, whether this gets overturned or not. try to get people to avoid signing up instead, per rules it allows players to valid hunt antags anyway.

Don't worry I know that no one will care about me getting banned therefore I recognize that I have massively more to lose then there is to gain.

Also breaking rules just to be "edgy" or whatever isn't really my M.O.

Yeah security gets the short end of the stick both IC and OOC, you gotta either not know how bad it is or have love for the game to be playing sec

Just play another role, lol

honestly just remove rubbershot, apparently it's just ban bait.

Honestly the more I think about this entire situation the more disappointed and uncomfortable I feel about the current landscape, to the point that I understand why people hate Manuel generally. It's not the players, it's the inconsistency of the admins and how it really just feels like an antags playground. If you're an antag you have freedom to do whatever and be as much as an asshole you'd like and it's all just an "IC issue". Yet we still wonder why people roll exclusively for antag and kill themselves/go afk when not an antag. Because if you're not an antag, you exist only to be fodder for the antags or admin "events".

It does not inspire confidence when the very first post on this thread is;

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:06 am My honest, live reaction
[2597-13-56 00:53:18.008] GAME-INCOMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: sightid2/(Terrabyte) "he used a shotgun, we finally got him."

Regardless if it was posted as a joke or not.

It feels like playing security is just bait for getting notes and bans, if you do anything but just lay down and die you're going to be scrutinized and possibly bwoinked. One round as a secoff there was another player who was getting sacked for having a fuck tonne of contraband and harassing some other player that tipped us off about them. This person was pretty upset and I tried to lighten the situation; the fortnite chug jug song was playing and so I decided to play some boomer who doesn't know how to get in with the kids of today and talk about fortnite. I didn't get a note but I got a lengthy bwoink over a silly joke I made to try and lighten the situation. At least the people who were watching me were amused by it, even though it essentially took me out of the round and made me feel shitty for attempting to be silly. People often refer to "old terran media" all the time so I figured there wasn't an issue if I made a silly joke like that. I rarely ever play secoff, but that whole thing made me uncomfortable to really try again.

At the same time a while ago I (as a moth person) got to be promoted to acting Captain because there were no heads of staff, and the AI and two other players were fully okay with me being a captain. I just wanted to run around and give silly medals to people. It was a birdshot round on lowpop, so usually it's pretty slow. There was some conflict that happened that round - and i promoted someone to a HoP that I shouldn't have, but I didn't really want to say "no" when they asked. An admin who was on at the time decided to spawn themselves in as a Centcom official and extend the round to three hours just so they can force me and the other heads of staff involved in the conflict to stay stuck in a conference room and get lectured quite heavily. Even shooting the person who I promoted to HoP just because he didn't "shut up" like he was told to.
I'm going to be honest - as shameful as it is, I had a legitimate panic attack during this "event". I thought I must be too sensitive, that I must've encouraged this type of interaction towards me because I dared to try and be a captain as a moth person. But honestly the whole situation brought forth memories where I was discriminated against in real life and forced to sit down and get insulted and lectured about how I really fucked up - even if I was just trying my best. I had legitimate nightmares after this round, which also makes me feel shame, because I must really be too sensitive to play this goddamn game.

I had a lot of faith in the admin team, but now, I'm not really so sure.

Manuel admins are so ass sometimes holy hell

MothNyan wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:27 pm It does not inspire confidence when the very first post on this thread is;

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:06 am My honest, live reaction
[2597-13-56 00:53:18.008] GAME-INCOMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: sightid2/(Terrabyte) "he used a shotgun, we finally got him."

Regardless if it was posted as a joke or not.

This is a direct reference to a meme in the community about a player who used the shotgun as security on another server and was banned for it. They posted the following diatribe in the appeal:

I used the shotgun. You know why? Cause the shot gun doesn’t miss: and unlike the shitty hybrid taser it stops a criminal in their tracks in two hits. Bang: bang: and they’re fucking done. I use four shots just to make damn sure. Because: once again: I’m not there to coddle a buncha criminal scum sucking *******: I’m there to 1) Survive the fucking round. 2) Guard the armory. So you can absolutely get fucked. If I get unbanned: which I won’t: you can guarantee I will continue to use the shotgun to apprehend criminals. Because it’s quick: clean and effective as fuck. Why in the seven hells would I fuck around with the disabler shots: which take half a clip just to bring someone down: or with the tazer bolts which are slow as balls: impossible to aim and do about next to jack shit: fuck all. The shotgun is the superior law enforcement weapon. Because it stops crime. And it stops crime by reducing the number of criminals roaming the fucking halls.

Sight's comment here is 110% a joke and shouldn't be used as indication of mindset or taken even remotely seriously. This is like seeing someone quip about how felinids are taking over the server and then making a thread saying how disappointed they are that the server hates felinid players.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:47 pm Sight's comment here is 110% a joke and shouldn't be used as indication of mindset or taken even remotely seriously. This is like seeing someone quip about how felinids are taking over the server and then making a thread saying how disappointed they are that the server hates felinid players.

Even so, I understand that these are peanut threads and all - but the real issue about the ticket is how lorwp suggests that there are many admins who want Jeff banned and gone for his "playstyle". Does it not come across as tone-deaf at all to make a joke like that?

I understand admins are just unpaid janitors, yet you hold a position of power over the playerbase and it can be pretty discomforting when an admin pretty much says; "we don't want you here."

MothNyan wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:00 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 7:47 pm Sight's comment here is 110% a joke and shouldn't be used as indication of mindset or taken even remotely seriously. This is like seeing someone quip about how felinids are taking over the server and then making a thread saying how disappointed they are that the server hates felinid players.

Even so, I understand that these are peanut threads and all - but the real issue about the ticket is how lorwp suggests that there are many admins who want Jeff banned and gone for his "playstyle". Does it not come across as tone-deaf at all to make a joke like that?

I understand admins are just unpaid janitors, yet you hold a position of power over the playerbase and it can be pretty discomforting when an admin pretty much says; "we don't want you here."

I can't post the logs for obvious reasons, but I can assure you that other conversations were had about the ban in general and that Sight's comment likely didn't play into why the ban was placed. Everyone pretty much immediately recognized it as a joke.

This is a bit more nebulous, but I can also attest that Sight is generally a very fair admin and I would never consider them to have a bias for or against someone without some really significant evidence. If I didn't know this was an obvious reference to a meme, I could see taking it the way you are, but it's very clearly a joke and wouldn't have influenced anything.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:03 pm I can't post the logs for obvious reasons, but I can assure you that other conversations were had about the ban in general and that Sight's comment likely didn't play into why the ban was placed. Everyone pretty much immediately recognized it as a joke.

That is not as reassuring as you think it is.

MothNyan wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:04 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:03 pm I can't post the logs for obvious reasons, but I can assure you that other conversations were had about the ban in general and that Sight's comment likely didn't play into why the ban was placed. Everyone pretty much immediately recognized it as a joke.

That is not as reassuring as you think it is.

Believe me or don't. I don't really care.

Vekter, I love both you and Sight.

"I can vouch that nobody took this joke about banning a guy who got banned seriously, no you cant see the logs, take my word as truth." Is not a great look for the admin team when part of the discontent here is that the admin team might not be able to be trusted.

Not a single person recognized the absolute badassness of the alliteration on the title.

4/5, missed nut.

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:15 pm Not a single person recognized the absolute badassness of the alliteration on the title.

4/5, missed nut.

This thread title is an easy 10/10 for me. Can someone ping Kendrick so we can get a professional opinion?

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:18 pm

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:15 pm Not a single person recognized the absolute badassness of the alliteration on the title.

4/5, missed nut.

This thread title is an easy 10/10 for me. Can someone ping Kendrick so we can get a professional opinion?

Careful what you wish for, Kendrick doesn't like alliteration.

Jezzared wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:12 pm Vekter, I love both you and Sight.

"I can vouch that nobody took this joke about banning a guy who got banned seriously, no you cant see the logs, take my word as truth." Is not a great look for the admin team when part of the discontent here is that the admin team might not be able to be trusted.

I mean, what the fuck do you want from me? I literally can't post the logs because I'll be deadminned if I do it. Either you take me at face value and trust me as someone who's been in the community off and on for ten years, or you don't. I don't care which one you pick, but I'm not going to ignore someone shit-talking somebody I respect because they have a poor mindset on how things are run.

here ya go you fuckin freaks.

OH they meant THOSE kinds of logs

Jezzared wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:12 pm Vekter, I love both you and Sight.

"I can vouch that nobody took this joke about banning a guy who got banned seriously, no you cant see the logs, take my word as truth." Is not a great look for the admin team when part of the discontent here is that the admin team might not be able to be trusted.

Even as one of the most virulently anti-admin posters in this thread, I must say that this is ridiculous, it was very clearly a joke, calm down.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:24 pm here ya go you fuckin freaks.IMG_7858.jpeg

YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO LEAK THOSE

"Shittalking" is not how I would ever describe Mothnyan. If you saw it as that aggressive then I don't really know what to say.

Sight didn't know that it wouldn't be as funny to other people as it would be to them and people who are 'in'. I don't ascribe any ill intent to them or to you. I also don't think you can vouch for how every other person in the admin chat at the time felt reading that in the moment.

That said, when the current player takeaway in this thread seems to be that some admins might not be 100% truthful or have the community's best intentions in mind, understand that this does not reflect well on the team. Sometimes the best course of action is to stop digging and just apologize.

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:26 pm Even as one of the most virulently anti-admin posters in this thread, I must say that this is ridiculous, it was very clearly a joke, calm down.

Just as Vekter doesn't like Sight being "attacked", I don't much appreciate Moth being "attacked" like this. I've only ever seen them be a positive and kind person and to hear that they are this scared of current admins and then have an admin accuse them of slander and "shittalking" while describing their discomfort sits very poorly with me.

so did the lawyer ahelp being shot by the hos or did the admins just see jeff use the shotgun and hit the admin PM button

I don't understand the whole "I don't trust the admin team" rigmarole. Who do you expect is gonna fix that? The headmins? Those are admins too. Even when kieth was ellected, he was an admin and took most of his decisions in tandem with the overall objectives of the admin team.

You want MSO to fix it? That's an admin too. Like a super duper admin that has all the admin powers and then some, but still a member of staff nonetheless.

Coders don't mix in admin matters except to chip in opinions we largely ignore.

Voicing discontent without presenting a solution that won't cost an admin his staff role and then berating them is silly.

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:30 pm so did the lawyer ahelp being shot by the hos or did the admins just see jeff use the shotgun and hit the admin PM button

You and I both know that they won't disclose that.

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:26 am

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:22 am It's a good idea. lets do away with notes entirely and administrate based on popularity contests.

Felt really fucking smug typing that out didn't you? And yet it only further reinforces my point that there's a total and complete disconnect between the playerbase and the admins right now, it's no wonder so many players have moved onto Monke recently, because with admins like you, we don't even need shitters.

many players have moved on to <stationname> recently, this is proof that tg is dying and provides evidence for <argument i'm having>

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:30 pm so did the lawyer ahelp being shot by the hos or did the admins just see jeff use the shotgun and hit the admin PM button

We have an automatic discord ping whenever someone pulls out a shotgun, it pings every admin and the player is then automatically banned

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:34 pm

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:30 pm so did the lawyer ahelp being shot by the hos or did the admins just see jeff use the shotgun and hit the admin PM button

We have an automatic discord ping whenever someone pulls out a shotgun, it pings every admin and the player is then automatically banned

First they are noted, trialmin, thus proving notes are punishments.

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:31 pm I don't understand the whole "I don't trust the admin team" rigmarole. Who do you expect is gonna fix that? The headmins? Those are admins too. Even when kieth was ellected, he was an admin and took most of his decisions in tandem with the overall objectives of the admin team.

You want MSO to fix it? That's an admin too. Like a super duper admin that has all the admin powers and then some, but still a member of staff nonetheless.

Coders don't mix in admin matters except to chip in opinions we largely ignore.

Voicing discontent without presenting a solution that won't cost an admin his staff role and then berating them is silly.

I don't expect Vekter to post logs. I do expect them to act with the understanding that they can't, and to not use it as an excuse to be abrasive to a community member I respect, especially when, again, I have seen multiple people worried about the precedent a ban like this would set.

You're right, players won't go to headmins or MSO if they think theyre in on it. They'll just leave. And I don't want that for us.

Yulice wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:09 pm

BonChoi wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 11:59 am It's time to make minor notes (like what this should have been at the most) expire after a month or so so that if the admins deem it they can upgrade them and make them permanent / apply a harsher punishment if it becomes a pattern of behavior.

The issue is that even temporary notes can be dug up by admins on their panel if they care enough to look, so they aren't really "temporary" except in name. You'd have to make them flat out delete themselves or something but I don't think any admin ever wants that because it would make maintaining information harder. That, or they'll simply just start leaving Hidden Notes constantly and stop talking to us but that would probably just make everyone more paranoid and suspicious of the admin team.

sorry yulice but pretty much all of this just isn't true. an admin using an expired note in a decision is a mistake and would be rectified as soon as it's noticed. anyone doing that intentionally would get absolutely dumpstered, as they should. it's not so much a design choice to be able to view those things as it is a case of the functionality simply not existing, and patchjob solutions that involve deleting entries from the database aren't suitable. we have extremely strict guidelines on when and why a note should be hidden: anything outside of this is against conduct. players need to be able to see their notes because it's important that they're aware of their own official record. this helps the player as much as it does admins.

temporary notes work and are used constantly.

i agree with the ongoing sentiment that notes/bans based on notes should pertain specifically to what incited that note. having layered meaning so that when you fight one aspect of the note, another is revealed to have been hidden beneath it is unfair to the player.

i also understand that a lot of people are upset by the optics of this but this is why we have these processes, and why we follow them in a certain way. it takes time to unpack a situation and go through all of the facts. when a thread builds up momentum like this it runs out of facts and starts turning to pure venting. there is nothing wrong with venting but in the end you must accept that it's not actually productive. nothing will come from "remove the admin team" nor will it do any good to tar all admins with the same brush. the vast majority of them are hearing about this the same way you are. the most it will do is stop admins from looking at this thread because it becomes a wall of noise that tells them that they suck.

i'm not going to insinuate that people shouldn't vent, because they should and it's why we have open discussions like this, but i do feel like it's worth considering what's actually productive in the end. using a steamroller to address jeff and his note history is unfair because it disregards nuance, and i would say the same about tearing down manuel and every admin because of a ban that is in the early stages of being appealed and investigated. save some torches and pitchforks for the conclusion.

Jezzared wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:27 pm "Shittalking" is not how I would ever describe Mothnyan. If you saw it as that aggressive then I don't really know what to say.

Poor choice of words on my part. I should've said "doubting" or something to that effect.

Dendy based as always.

In my opinion this ban sucks, rubbershot are non-lethal and critting by them is skill issue. Expecting players to know all the damage Numbers and knowing how much hp someone has is weird. I get that this dude had a bunch of notes but sit down and talk with them about it, this incident is not even close to a security ban and I personally wouldnt even note this.

Jezzared wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:36 pm You're right, players won't go to headmins or MSO if they think theyre in on it. They'll just leave. And I don't want that for us.

If they think this supposed stink rises up to the host and headmins obviously they'll leave. I wonder what makes them think other servers are gonna be different.

Maybe if they're THAT worried, then SS13 isn't the sort of game they'll enjoy.

There's no secret admin kabal that bows to the grace of the all-knowing host and his headmins. It's just a multiplayer game bro lmao