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20 minutes. Can we get any lower?

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

no no no not this argument again please

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

why do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thing

CLASSIC NOTES ARE A PUNISHMENT SEGWAY GOTTA LOVE IT LADS AND LASSES FUCKIN ELL!

Does anyone know where I can buy cheap gravel, asking for a friend

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

why do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thing

We aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:35 am

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

why do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thing

We aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.

"Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations." Context for admins to apply better judgement which might be a ban, the pattern is usually also what gets banned on. You are just jumping at shadows my guy, you are saying the same thing as tbm.

Just shut up.

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:22 am Just shut up.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

Those two things are not mutualy exclusive.

What a fucking freak.

Bring back Sinfulbliss.

Further points in order of I skimmed this peanut:

notes are punishments.

Wait this is a note..?

*Scratches head*

This is a note?

Notes are punishments.


Wtf all this for a note?

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:35 am

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

why do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thing

We aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.

What you are saying is punishment is record keeping. Having records of the past actions of a player and taking them into account can result in their future actions being treated more harshly. As you believe this is in of itself a form of punishment, you believe that record keeping is punishment.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:06 pm
What you are saying is punishment is record keeping. Having records of the past actions of a player and taking them into account can result in their future actions being treated more harshly. As you believe this is in of itself a form of punishment, you believe that record keeping is punishment.

As notes are solely used as "strikes" this is correct, notes are punishments.

The nature of negative notes (which I will be referring to as notes for the rest of this post) is that they are records of wrongdoing that can be used as a reasoning of escalation to a ban upon further wrongdoing of the same nature within a period of time.

In my opinion, this is the minimum level of punishment that can be done to a player. You were officially warned by the admin, and it was recorded for other admins to see and act based on it.

The concept of "notes are not a punishment" is self-defeating. If notes are not a punishment, why are they used as fuel for further punishment? And why can they be appealed if not a punishment?

Usually if I feel the player needs a caution (new player, or information that justifies but still doesn't remove all fault) but does not deserve a punishment, I would usually just tell them off without the note.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:06 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:35 am

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:19 am

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

why do people say this like its a gotcha when you and tbm are saying exactly the same thing

We aren't. TBM is implying they're for records-keeping. "Notes are meant to establish patterns and leave context for admins in future situations.". He is clearly and obviously on the "They're records-keeping" side, but they're not for records-keeping, notes are the 2nd step in the punishment ladder, which goes Verbal > Note > Partial/temp ban > Permaban > Blacklist. Notes are frequently brought up in bans as a reason for punishment severity, so they're a punishment, as they make you more likely to receive bans or other harsher punishments in the future. This isn't a bad thing, but to imply that they're not a punishment like TBM is doing here is flat out wrong.

What you are saying is punishment is record keeping. Having records of the past actions of a player and taking them into account can result in their future actions being treated more harshly. As you believe this is in of itself a form of punishment, you believe that record keeping is punishment.

I mean, 99.9% of notes are negative and only exist to increase the severity of future punishments, so, yes.

Like, I have 2 positive notes and 2 negative notes, but I'm preeeeeeeetty sure that I'm a major exception, from how I've talked to other players. I would have more, but 3 notes on me have been removed on successful appeal and 2 additional ones were very, very, very low severity temp notes.

But for everyone else in the community, the only function notes have is to make sure they get punished harder in the future. So, maybe if you don't want notes to be seen as a punishment, you should write more positive notes, so that way they can be more neutral instead of always being negative.

When was the last time you gave a player a positive note, Jacquerel?

Honestly, the argument itself is besides the point because TBM has not referred to whether notes are a punishment or not.

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:55 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:07 pmwe're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

By the way, just want to call out TBM here for bringing up the many, MANY times debunked narrative that notes are merely administrative record-keeping. Notes are a punishment, including this note.

This is true regardless of whether it's a punishment or not. If it's not true, then notes are completely pointless.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:05 pm
In my opinion, this is the minimum level of punishment that can be done to a player. You were officially warned by the admin, and it was recorded for other admins to see and act based on it.

Notes are a punishment, but there is a lower level of punishment: just a slap on the wrist don't do it again. Players don't like being bwoinked, being told off is not pleasant and if people react in good faith I'm often happy with "okay we had this chat and now they know not to do it again"

Mfw the are notes a punishment argument remerges for the 10000th time and the same points are brought up by everyone and it'll lead to nothing again

I'll wear my notes are punishment hat tho..

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:11 pmWhen was the last time you gave a player a positive note, Jacquerel?

if i gave a player a positive note then i would be subject to administrative action myself, on account of the fact that I am not an admin

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 4:20 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:11 pmWhen was the last time you gave a player a positive note, Jacquerel?

if i gave a player a positive note then i would be subject to administrative action myself, on account of the fact that I am not an admin

Do it anyways nerd.

Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.

cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:05 pm Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.

yeah it's a pretty zero-sum game.

cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:05 pm Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.

imitates-the-lizards was just shitstirring

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:55 pm

cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:05 pm Where did this argument even start, what's its fucking point. It seems like such a useless debate over semantics, I don't see any useful action being taken or policy or practice being changed if everyone decides definitively whether they are or aren't a punishment.

imitates-the-lizards was just shitstirring

Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:21 pm
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring

You're going off of imagined implication and the thing you're saying is being implied is an entirely useless bit of semantics
Was the note justified? Are there details missing? Was there misconduct in its application? Questions like that are important, and if a note is a punishment is entirely irrelevant to any of their answers.

cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:29 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:21 pm
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring

You're going off of imagined implication and the thing you're saying is being implied is an entirely useless bit of semantics
Was the note justified? Are there details missing? Was there misconduct in its application? Questions like that are important, and if a note is a punishment is entirely irrelevant to any of their answers.

I think it fairly obvious that whether or not notes are a punishment is relevant to whether or not a note is justifiable, otherwise there wouldn't be any need to justify notes... Why would you need to justify them if they aren't a punishment?

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:58 pm

cSeal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:29 pm

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:21 pm
Holding the headmeme accountable for incorrectly implying notes are only administrative records-keeping isn't shitstirring

You're going off of imagined implication and the thing you're saying is being implied is an entirely useless bit of semantics
Was the note justified? Are there details missing? Was there misconduct in its application? Questions like that are important, and if a note is a punishment is entirely irrelevant to any of their answers.

I think it fairly obvious that whether or not notes are a punishment is relevant to whether or not a note is justifiable, otherwise there wouldn't be any need to justify notes... Why would you need to justify them if they aren't a punishment?

it actually isn't and this post is complete nonsense
you need to justify notes because they need to be an accurate record
the "punishment" is simply that having a record of your past behaviour can make your future behaviour look worse, as a result of note taking
"remembering this person" would be a similar punishment but difficult to spread across a team of 100 admins and harder to reference your brain in a ban appeal

notes only need to be factual and not too harsh. they need no justification- though it’d be pretty difficult to keep applying notes with no justification constantly

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:31 am

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:46 am A player on Manuel ate an instant permaban for something similar.

Only in that case it was a comment targeting a cat girl, just sayin'.
(The Felinid deep state strikes again...)

Rule 8 fluctuates between like, insta perma ban grr and pretty lenient stuff. It's hard to get right.

The rule is badly written, which means it's mostly up to admin interpretation, but more importantly, if you try to defend against a rule 8 accusation for someone in the bus you're likely to get someone attempting to conclude you're supporting creepy people, which means the only people who really comment on it are headadmins.

tried taking notes on this but the paper started screaming and i spilt my drink in fear.

>starsector posting is annoying
>starsector posting is the same as counting
>starsector posting is just thread derailment
>i hate having to wade through starsector posting so i can get to the meat of why notes are bad for the 50th time


i hope youre all happy

lets only derail threads by proposing that notes are or arent punishment now

Thinking of going luddic path this time guys

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:36 pm >starsector posting is annoying
>starsector posting is the same as counting
>starsector posting is just thread derailment
>i hate having to wade through starsector posting so i can get to the meat of why notes are bad for the 50th time


i hope youre all happy

im happy

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 9:43 pm lets only derail threads by proposing that notes are or arent punishment now

It's supremely intelligent and creative takes like this that gut me everytime I have to place Jacquerel in second place as my favourite maintainer (he's at the moment numero uno ☝ tho)

Notes are punishment and any admin that says otherwise was a front-row nerd in school.

Make notes an FBI-style psychological profile of players that is only visible to admins and separate it from warnings which are explicitly punishments. I trust this won‘t be abused

"notes arent punishment" people when the teacher forgets to pick up homework: uhmm teacher??? you forgot to take up the homework!!

Chad "notes are punishment" people when the teacher asks the class how the paper is coming along: im so stressed im only 30% done with the paper i dont know if i will get it done in time teacher can we get an extension please???

feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:16 pm Make notes an FBI-style psychological profile of players that is only visible to admins and separate it from warnings which are explicitly punishments. I trust this won‘t be abused

this has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:47 pm

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:31 am

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 5:46 am A player on Manuel ate an instant permaban for something similar.

Only in that case it was a comment targeting a cat girl, just sayin'.
(The Felinid deep state strikes again...)

Rule 8 fluctuates between like, insta perma ban grr and pretty lenient stuff. It's hard to get right.

The rule is badly written, which means it's mostly up to admin interpretation, but more importantly, if you try to defend against a rule 8 accusation for someone in the bus you're likely to get someone attempting to conclude you're supporting creepy people, which means the only people who really comment on it are headadmins.

With these types of rules it'll always be up to admins and that's because of the nature of rule 8 situations. There's a lot of nuance.

but ya bus is often hard to have opposing opinions in

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:16 pm "notes arent punishment" people when the teacher forgets to pick up homework: uhmm teacher??? you forgot to take up the homework!!

Chad "notes are punishment" people when the teacher asks the class how the paper is coming along: im so stressed im only 30% done with the paper i dont know if i will get it done in time teacher can we get an extension please???

Your comments are a punishment on the forums as they impact people's thoughts and engagement with the forums.

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 pm

feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:16 pm Make notes an FBI-style psychological profile of players that is only visible to admins and separate it from warnings which are explicitly punishments. I trust this won‘t be abused

this has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.

I had assumed that notes becoming visible included anything written down about you. Why bother to appeal a note then?

feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:00 pm

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 pm

feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:16 pm Make notes an FBI-style psychological profile of players that is only visible to admins and separate it from warnings which are explicitly punishments. I trust this won‘t be abused

this has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.

I had assumed that notes becoming visible included anything written down about you. Why bother to appeal a note then?

that's the fun part, it's usually not worth the bother. for anybody involved.

feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:00 pm

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:24 pm

feaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 10:16 pm Make notes an FBI-style psychological profile of players that is only visible to admins and separate it from warnings which are explicitly punishments. I trust this won‘t be abused

this has been in practice for like 12 years, fellow spaceman.

I had assumed that notes becoming visible included anything written down about you. Why bother to appeal a note then?

If you believe a note is unjust, you appeal it so it doesn't impact future judgement of an admin which would then result in a harsher punishment, due to rule 7.

Admins make mistakes, and owning up to those mistakes are what makes a good admin good.

Those mistakes are not common however or else we wouldn't do notes.

finally dropped my ban appeal because this thread was so boring

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:44 am If it requires a multi paragraph post by the guy that implemented the feature to explain the consequences, then maybe this isn't knowledge every random player should be expected to know.

goof didnt make chloral? He may have touched it down the line when he switched the chems from trekkies but i wouldnt say he implemented chloral.

The misunderstanding comes from when chloral used to sleep much faster. The reason it was considered a "death chem" is not because the chem itself killed you, but because you were basically dead if an antag shot you w this due to the hard stun. Stuns were (and still are) lethal.

The real puzzling piece was if goof posted the paragraph to nerd out over chloral or to just btfo sinful.

I think this thread is past the expiration date. Why do you people have to bikeshed about notes, it doesn't matter