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HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=34649

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HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:29 pm
by kinnebian

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=38&p=698498#p698498
looks like the new election is starting
are you running?
im running
who else is running?
are you excited for anyone in particular
have you already decided who you want to vote for?

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:25 am
by Cheshify
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:07 am
Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:51 am -snip-
fuck it

you, iaian0, and fikou would all make better headmins than me

not kinneb though (sorry kinneb you're too angry all the time like conrad)

as of immediately i am stepping out of the running and sponsoring...
Spoiler:
Image

and also fikou (i don't think iaian needs the extra stress)
in the meantime i will continue to brood within sybil until the end of my days

at least when i can get a weekend off again
You're a good admin and a cool dude Scriptis. I don't want you to stop running because of a disagreement in server politics. It's fine to change your policies if you've changed your mind on them it shows you're open to new ideas.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:28 am
by Fikou
wesoda25 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:05 am
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:46 am imagine, for a moment, if you will, if manuel players elected their own council of people to dictate MRP policy without ever having to risk LRP-oriented headmin-candidate lunatics like me burning their server to the ground.

that is what i want
Watermelon is better when grown next to wheat, not seperately scriptis!
QUINTS

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:30 am
by Scriptis
Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:25 am You're a good admin and a cool dude Scriptis. I don't want you to stop running because of a disagreement in server politics. It's fine to change your policies if you've changed your mind on them it shows you're open to new ideas.
nah fuck that i'll just chain whoever ends up in charge to a computer connected to sybil for 3 weeks

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:35 am
by conrad
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:07 am not kinneb though (sorry kinneb you're too angry all the time like conrad)
What the fuck are you talking about I'm never fucking angry damnit. AAAAARGH
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:07 am
Spoiler:
Image
Chesh is my touchstone for just being a decent human being as an admin, and in this spoily we really agree.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:08 am
by RedBaronFlyer
It's time for the opinions on each candidate that no one asked for, MINE!

WARNING, MANY WORDS AHEAD!
Spoiler:

Chadley: Liking notes being clarified. Notes are a punishment and anyone who thinks otherwise is huffing some massive copium (and/or they're an observer admin and thus never have to deal notes being used against themselves). I will keep bringing up that EmpressMaia ban, because it's a torpedo against the "notes, aren't a punishment" ship. Note policy is also a clusterfuck that needs to be simplified and standardized. Claiming to be pushing anti-admin pro-player stuff is vague, but it comes across as cringy. It comes across like those political candidates saying, "Unlike these guys, I'm not a career politician!" when they've been a politician longer than their opponents. I'll go more into my thoughts on "LRP VS. MRP" further down, but I don't think MRP needs a special headmin seat just for MRP people. I could be wrong, but I've seen admins/players from MRP win a majority of headmin seats during the previous elections. (again, could be wrong) I have no feelings about purging the inactive admins.

Sightld2: I like his headmin/ban appeals ideas. Moths should be allowed to have silly names. I agree with pretty much all of their thoughts on silicons, despite us being on polar opposites of the player spectrum (AI main vs. a person who hates silicons with a passion)

Cheshify: I'm glad to see someone bringing up polls. The "we rule for you because we know better than you" feeling happens often. I love the idea of an event calendar. I don't think every event needs to be announced beforehand, but it sucks to almost always miss the cool events and only see the "haha, I made everyone progtot xd" level of events. I've liked their contributions to the server as a whole, and they seem like a pretty reasonable person

SS14 Stuff:
Spoiler:
I'm extremely eh about SS14. It just seems... really, really boring. They are updating/adding a lot of stuff recently, which is nice. If it had an exact tgstation copy and paste TGcontrol scheme, I'd probably bother playing it more. If SS13 didn't have such a high barrier of entry, then it'd probably have more players. Doesn't help that SS14 has already gotten involved in shitshows (true ss13 successor)

Then the SS14 devs managed to successfully petition the r/ss13 mods (some of the /ss13 mods are goonmins) to secret content (aka the 'don't talk about this' rule) SS14 to hide drama
Kinnebian: Again, liking the faster headmin response push. Admin rulings definitely needs a cleanup. It's a mess of years-old rulings, which are often overturned by later rulings, leading to a byzantine system. Rule announcement is also a nice thing. I talk about the silicon thing more below. They also rotate their admining across multiple servers, which is a plus. Admin swapping could either be cool or a complete mess. I've seen Sinful complain about MRP admins being too strict on LRP a few times, but I have no idea if that's a popular sentiment or not among LRP players.

Fikou: I'm admittedly biased in favor of canidates that have years of playtime and experience. I like the idea of headmins responding faster to bans if they're uncontroversial. If an admin makes a fucky wucky and are clearly wrong with a ban, headmins shouldn't have to um and er about it for five+ days. I've seen headmins undo a ban days after it expired, when the said ban was for a week. Populating Campbell seems pointless. Manuel doesn't have enough pop to force the Euros to play on the EU MRP server. I'm reminded of when MSO forced Manuel players to play on Campbell, who all then returned to Manuel when it reopened. Lots of rounds played but not a lot of playing as a crew member as of late, which I see as critical for admins, headmins, and contributors (coders and spriters) to be doing.

JohnFulpWillard: I'm admittedly biased against him because he came across as unprofessional during mining PR. In addition, they have extremely low playtime and observe time consistency. I like headmins that play the game. I like that he doesn't want to split LRP and MRP more. I think both being together is a symbiotic relationship. Mentors are also a good idea, but they'd need to be done well. I am against assistants having maint access removed. I'll admit that I *REALLY* don't like assistants (but like them more than paramedics), but I feel like removing maint access would just make the HOP line more of a clusterfuck than it already is at the start of most rounds. I feel like all it would do is lead to more maint doors being hacked open, and that's it. (kind of like during the early stages of his mining PR where miners would just run past the cargo techs, grab their crates, then launch the shuttle with all the doors open) Paramedic already has a problem of people playing it to have (effective) all access, and this change would make it worse.

Iain0: Extremely consistent player, but a rather high amount of it is spent observing versus living. They don't have a lot of campaign ideas, but I've been somewhat content with the status quo (at least on the administration side). They are not the most interesting candidate, but they have lots of experience and are clearly a dedicated admin.

WineAllWine: pretty active (though not much living playtime). I like the idea of more events, but I'm kinda mixed on them (more on that below). I'm all for admins being a bit more creative and/or encouraging creativity. I don't have much to say because I talk about it more below.

Pepper/ANIMETIDDIES: They have a lot of recent living (i.e., not observing) playtime, which is a bonus. I don't know if they were an admin before this, but I'm against voting people with no experience in the bureaucracy to the top of the chain. I rarely see it go well (in terms of online or in real life). I like the idea of using the event hall more, for event rounds. It sucks when you log onto your server of choice just to realize that the admins are in the mood to press all the buttons all the time for multiple rounds on end. I'm kinda eh about the escalation regulations for heads of staff, but that's probably because MRP already has a rule like that. More often, I see people picking headroles to have an easier time as an antagonist instead of hunting antags. Self-deleting player club threads after 90 days is mega lame. I will talk more about the LRP VS. MRP thing below.

GeneralThrax: A pretty good living-to-observing ratio, and very active. I'm indifferent towards training, but that's because I am ignorant about it, to be honest. I'm a big fan of space law being revamped and possibly implemented. Right now, spacelaw is in this weird place where you can use it to justify your actions during ahelps sometimes (or so I've heard), but at the same time, it's almost a noob trap for newer security players to get boinked over EOTC-ing an antagonist that stole an item out of a head of staff's office. I also like the idea of giving pirates and lings a bit more leeway. They're one of the candidates I'm most excited about. Also, they've been a really cool player whenever I see them in-game, so I'm a bit biased.

Jonathan Gupta/BallastMonsterGnarGnar: The only positive I have about them is that they play a lot. That's it. Seems like a shitpost campaign thread.

General talking points/trends that I see:

Remove/disable felinids: I'm not a fan of felinid removal, not because felinids are some sacred creature, but because I think removing an entire species at this point is stupid. Plus, felinids serve as a pretty good "diet non-human," where you have a few non-human quirks but nothing serious. The cringe felinids won't disappear if felinids get removed (or made into legacy content where no new felinid characters can be made, but old ones stay), they'll just because neon haired humans instead (and cargo orders for cat ears will probably skyrocket)

Split LRP and MRP: I see this as a bad idea. I feel like the current status quo is fine. I think simple rulesets are enough to split LRP and MRP. Although MRP has probably shifted from the original TG in terms of culture, LRP has probably shifted from the divergence point of MRP as well. Some players play LRP and MRP, some play LRP only, some play MRP only, and it's fine. I admittedly don't read the LRP general chat on the TG discord, so I don't know if the "THE MRP ADMINS ARE FORCING US TO BE MRP!" sentiment is a popular feeling or just one Ekat and Sinful bring up.

More events: More events is nice, but at least on MRP, most events are just "haha I turn everyone heretic" tier of lameness. April Fools was a fucking shitshow because the admins wouldn't lay off the admin buttons for two seconds, and I'm still salty I never even got to experience most of the meme PRS (which were the whole point of April Fools) because the admins thought that blowing up the whole crew five minutes in = funny (especially repeatedly)

Extremely low energy/meme candidates: We have a lot of these this election cycle, which on the bright side, means that we won't have to deal with over choice. Low-effort candidate threads (and blatantly meme ones) should be deleted, and the person who made the thread should be unable to create a new one, so there are fewer threads to see.

Faster responses to headmin appeals: Very much needed. I've seen a few too many bad week-long bans get overruled on day four or five from the initial headmin appeal. I get that simply saying, "The bureaucracy should just run faster!" is an oversimplification, but perhaps build upon what Sightld2 suggested with lone headmins having the ability to quickly glance at a ban to see if it's legit without having to have all the headmins discuss it.

Silicon rework: Very much needed. Silicon policy is a byzantine clusterfuck of rules, expectations, precedents, headmin rulings, policy threads, etc. It desperately needs a revamp and simplification. I've heard some admins saying that silicon ahelps are almost always a clusterfuck, and I don't blame them for feeling that way. It's easily the most "messy" part of TGstation policy right now, to the point that there is typically less salt the fewer silicons there are in a round. Heaven forbid there's an antagonist AI using a robotic factory. I have never seen it not result in a clusterfuck. Nearly every time, it results in a 10+ minute delayed end round. Theoretically, the AI/Silicon vs. crew interaction should be really interesting. In reality, both sides are just screaming at each other and when an admin gets involved, they are digging through dozens of pages, rules, policy threads, admin rulings, etc., to out-lawyer each other. Case in point with nukies on manuel. Almost every round of nukies on Manuel involves the AI fighting like hell to keep upload bolted.

Some parties argue that AI can do this because it can predict that the captain/RD wanting to change its laws after a war declaration could only mean that it's going to non-human the nukies (or something along those lines). Others argue that the AI can't do this because it can only prevent current human harm (or something along those lines). Either way, all it takes is some smooth brain assistant to yell, "dehuman da nukies!!!11!" for the AI to bolt the upload. It also leads to borgs b-lining nukies to "bring them to medbay" Image (Read: get emagged)

In my opinion, silicons (AIs and borgs in particular) should be held to an even higher standard than security is. It feels like admins tend to put their heads in the sand regarding possible issues with borgs/AI because they don't want to have to deal with the byzantine clusterfuck of the current silicon policy. Screw removing felinids. I'd rather have silicons removed. (but PAI's, maint drones, sentient mop bots, etc. can stay) ((do not actually remove silicons))

If I were to pick, I'd say my choices are probably Cheshify, GeneralThrax, and I'm undecided about the third slot. Possibly Kinnebian or Sightld2.

TL:DR:
some good candidates, a lot of eh candidates, a lot of low energy candidates, a lot of meme candidates, removing felinids is dumb, splitting MRP and LRP more is dumb, silicons need a rework, rulings need to be touched up, people shouldn't have to wait a week to get a headmin response to bans, silicons continue to be a mess, a bit torn on events because they tend to be really hit or miss.
Image

TL:DR:
some good candidates, a lot of eh candidates, a lot of low energy candidates, a lot of meme candidates, removing felinids is dumb, splitting MRP and LRP more is dumb, silicons need a rework, rulings need to be touched up, people shouldn't have to wait a week to get a headmin response to bans, silicons continue to be a mess, a bit torn on events because they tend to be really hit or miss. Most excited for Cheshify and GeneralThrax, while heavily considering Kinnebian or Sightld2 for the third headmin vote.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:14 am
by The Wrench
Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:51 am
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:46 am
Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:38 am
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:35 am Do you truly represent the people you're changing those rules for?
Meme response aside, I won't be doing it alone. Ignoring the fact that I do spend time on Sybil myself, I wouldn't make a policy decision I'm not confident in without working with two other incredibly qualified head admins, an entire admin team, and possibly using policybus to ask the community themselves.
imagine, for a moment, if you will, if manuel players elected their own council of people to dictate MRP policy without ever having to risk LRP-oriented headmin-candidate lunatics like me burning their server to the ground.

that is what i want
The consequences of that are further driving a wedge between MRP and LRP.
So what is the solution? Allow “Rule creep” to migrate from MRP to LRP gradually breaking down the culture we have?

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:38 am
by iwishforducks
i have the solution

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:44 am
by Cheshify
The Wrench wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:14 am So what is the solution? Allow “Rule creep” to migrate from MRP to LRP gradually breaking down the culture we have?
Could you please provide an example of "Rule Creep" wherein MRP imposed itself on LRP? I just don't really get this because it doesn't make sense for an MRP community to change the LRP one when MRP can just... change their own rules?

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:16 am
by Imitates-The-Lizards
Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:44 am
The Wrench wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:14 am So what is the solution? Allow “Rule creep” to migrate from MRP to LRP gradually breaking down the culture we have?
Could you please provide an example of "Rule Creep" wherein MRP imposed itself on LRP? I just don't really get this because it doesn't make sense for an MRP community to change the LRP one when MRP can just... change their own rules?
Rule 12.

Not making a value judgement and saying whether rule 12 is good or bad when applied to LRP, but it's pretty clearly a case of MRP being forced on LRP

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:16 am
by Jacquerel
Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:17 pm Sightld2.png
wtf that’s an L???

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:34 am
by TheFinalPotato
The Wrench wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:14 am
So what is the solution? Allow “Rule creep” to migrate from MRP to LRP gradually breaking down the culture we have?
Culture changes all the time brother, relax. Things are always gonna change (2019 sybil my beloved), just enjoy what you have now.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:49 am
by kinnebian
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:07 am not kinneb though (sorry kinneb you're too angry all the time like conrad)
WHAT

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:59 am
by Imitates-The-Lizards
New entry from Bugstep. Not gonna lie, allowing non-humans for head roles is something that should have happened ages ago, because a lot of experienced players don't play head roles simply because they would rather be a felinid or lizard or moth or something, and I think the game suffers for it.

QM being made a real head but still non-human didn't cause the sky to fall, just saying.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am
by Striders13
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:16 am
Rule 12.

Not making a value judgement and saying whether rule 12 is good or bad when applied to LRP, but it's pretty clearly a case of MRP being forced on LRP
Rule 12 was in place way before we even had a MRP server. Except it wasn't numbered 12.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:05 am
by kieth4
One thing I want to see is people being real. Headmins joking, being in public vcs, active in dcord and ooc. This was my goal this term and I think it was achieved rlly well want to see this continue as opposed to having political headmins

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:07 am
by TheFinalPotato
Bug you can't make us do things. If you want to do something about balance, make balance prs. You don't need a structural change to do that.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:17 am
by Jacquerel
I believe that config can allow nonhuman heads (within headmin purview) but amusingly there is no config related to the pay gap (not that anyone proposed removing it)

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:17 am
by RedBaronFlyer
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:59 am New entry from Bugstep. Not gonna lie, allowing non-humans for head roles is something that should have happened ages ago, because a lot of experienced players don't play head roles simply because they would rather be a felinid or lizard or moth or something, and I think the game suffers for it.

QM being made a real head but still non-human didn't cause the sky to fall, just saying.
Just shows why cargo is the superior department.

Similar to a lot of stuff, humans being given higher priority, with things like pay discrimination and a glass ceiling for non-humans could offer up a ton of roleplaying potential. However, like a lot of stuff that has roleplay potential, it is mostly just wasted.

The pay thing is borderline pointless because money rarely matters and pretty much only matters for department equipment, snacks if the chefs are incompetent, tipping/bribing (which is rarely done), and private orders (which were massively nerfed by Goof fixing access requirements for some private orders).

The "non-humans can't be heads of staff" thing is probably the biggest thing I dislike. It feels like something that is just kept around because it's always been around. I'd be completely in favor of axing it completely, at least on MRP. You mentioning that some people never try head roles because they want to be a non-human immediately made me think of Piper Faust/GeneralThrax. They play as a felinid but have to swap to a human to play CMO. I think QM's being grandfathered in with allowing non-humans to pick it showed that it can be done without much issue.

As for roleplay of speciesism, I'ma be honest. It just boils down to 99% of players completely ignoring a person's species (outside of a rare racial insult because someone is being a shitter, such as calling a lizard a "taildragger" for being a shitter, for instance), or they make it their entire personality of being speciesist. There are two people on manuel whose entire personalities are just "I intentionally bait people by calling them "retarded (insert species slur)" and being a complete dickhead to get people to escalate so I can kill them." Pretty sure one of them got banned.

Granted, this is from the POV of a MRP who only plays Manuel, and it might be different on LRP.
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:17 am I believe that config can allow nonhuman heads (within headmin purview) but amusingly there is no config related to the pay gap (not that anyone proposed removing it)
Probably because pay basically doesn't matter outside of the first 300 credits. Almost anything you can find in a vending machine can either be printed out somewhere (autolathe, department lathes), ordered via the cargo budget, or superior versions are available for free (vending machine food vs. a chef making anything better than deep fried mold) Non-human pay got bumped up to be like, 90% of a humans pay a little less than a month ago with minimal pushback. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77055

Fuck it. I'm going to ask each headmin candidate what they think about changing the config to allow nonhumans to be heads when that time rolls around.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:21 am
by Jacquerel
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:17 am I believe that config can allow nonhuman heads (within headmin purview) but amusingly there is no config related to the pay gap (not that anyone proposed removing it)
oh also while i can’t talk for mothblocks (who i believe is wholly uninterested in the election anyway) it’s funny to use her as an example because my memory is of her saying she enjoys becoming CMO during a round while being unable to select it at round start

now that i’ve actually read bugstep’s platform i also think their proposal three is empty and unenforceable
they could do it as a non-headmin by opening some prs though

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:36 am
by saprasam
why would nanotrasen hire third class workers/borderline slaves as their heads of staff

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:52 am
by Jacquerel
saprasam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:36 am why would nanotrasen hire third class workers/borderline slaves as their heads of staff
thats all of their employees

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:07 pm
by Fikou
i updated my threaed a little

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:09 pm
by Timberpoes
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:16 am Rule 12.

Not making a value judgement and saying whether rule 12 is good or bad when applied to LRP, but it's pretty clearly a case of MRP being forced on LRP
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=30835 / https://tgstation13.org/wiki/index.php? ... &oldid=193

This rule actually dates back to 2014.

I'd argue it's a case of LRP being forced on NRP.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:05 pm
by TheLoLSwat
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:17 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:59 am New entry from Bugstep. Not gonna lie, allowing non-humans for head roles is something that should have happened ages ago, because a lot of experienced players don't play head roles simply because they would rather be a felinid or lizard or moth or something, and I think the game suffers for it.

QM being made a real head but still non-human didn't cause the sky to fall, just saying.
Just shows why cargo is the superior department.

Similar to a lot of stuff, humans being given higher priority, with things like pay discrimination and a glass ceiling for non-humans could offer up a ton of roleplaying potential. However, like a lot of stuff that has roleplay potential, it is mostly just wasted.

The pay thing is borderline pointless because money rarely matters and pretty much only matters for department equipment, snacks if the chefs are incompetent, tipping/bribing (which is rarely done), and private orders (which were massively nerfed by Goof fixing access requirements for some private orders).

The "non-humans can't be heads of staff" thing is probably the biggest thing I dislike. It feels like something that is just kept around because it's always been around. I'd be completely in favor of axing it completely, at least on MRP. You mentioning that some people never try head roles because they want to be a non-human immediately made me think of Piper Faust/GeneralThrax. They play as a felinid but have to swap to a human to play CMO. I think QM's being grandfathered in with allowing non-humans to pick it showed that it can be done without much issue.

As for roleplay of speciesism, I'ma be honest. It just boils down to 99% of players completely ignoring a person's species (outside of a rare racial insult because someone is being a shitter, such as calling a lizard a "taildragger" for being a shitter, for instance), or they make it their entire personality of being speciesist. There are two people on manuel whose entire personalities are just "I intentionally bait people by calling them "retarded (insert species slur)" and being a complete dickhead to get people to escalate so I can kill them." Pretty sure one of them got banned.

Granted, this is from the POV of a MRP who only plays Manuel, and it might be different on LRP.
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:17 am I believe that config can allow nonhuman heads (within headmin purview) but amusingly there is no config related to the pay gap (not that anyone proposed removing it)
Probably because pay basically doesn't matter outside of the first 300 credits. Almost anything you can find in a vending machine can either be printed out somewhere (autolathe, department lathes), ordered via the cargo budget, or superior versions are available for free (vending machine food vs. a chef making anything better than deep fried mold) Non-human pay got bumped up to be like, 90% of a humans pay a little less than a month ago with minimal pushback. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77055

Fuck it. I'm going to ask each headmin candidate what they think about changing the config to allow nonhumans to be heads when that time rolls around.
I never thought I’d say this but Manuel might be the worst out of all 4 sister servers when it comes to speciesism. I don’t know exactly why that is but It’s one of the few real culture differences between Manuel and Sybil. I encourage you to atleast observe a few LRP rounds so you can see the fun of random nonhuman taxing, AI shocking, reasonable slur usage, random beatings, petty theft, excessive shoving and bombings that is LRP Speciesism

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:30 pm
by dendydoom
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:09 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:16 am Rule 12.

Not making a value judgement and saying whether rule 12 is good or bad when applied to LRP, but it's pretty clearly a case of MRP being forced on LRP
viewtopic.php?f=85&t=30835 / https://tgstation13.org/wiki/index.php? ... &oldid=193

This rule actually dates back to 2014.

I'd argue it's a case of LRP being forced on NRP.
kids today dont know that the game was totally different pre-sethtide. it was much closer to what we call mrp today, and was considered the normal ss13 experience.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:12 pm
by Sightld2
Kinneb (1).png
Bugstep.png
Bugsteps in along with the Kinneb rebalancing patch.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:49 pm
by TheLoLSwat
Is bugstep allowed to have balance changes as a platform?

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:00 pm
by The Wrench
Striders13 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:04 am
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:16 am
Rule 12.

Not making a value judgement and saying whether rule 12 is good or bad when applied to LRP, but it's pretty clearly a case of MRP being forced on LRP
Rule 12 was in place way before we even had a MRP server. Except it wasn't numbered 12.
Rule 12 as it was back then was from a time period where all of TG was MRP, it fell off as the bulk of the community became more LRP focused (Sethtiders) so pretending it isn’t a push to global MRP is a little silly no?

Let’s call a spade a spade

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:03 pm
by Sightld2
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:49 pm Is bugstep allowed to have balance changes as a platform?
This is a good question. And while I'm not Oranges, I feel like its a little different than promising code changes. They're saying they'd like to work more closely with coders. So maybe its ok?

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:07 pm
by The Wrench
If anything, we should have players vote on new policy before it gets enacted permanently, and display which servers voted in favor and which didn’t So if we can see if it’s actually LRP players who want more rules or if it’s Manuel players imposing

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:34 pm
by datorangebottle
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:49 pm Is bugstep allowed to have balance changes as a platform?
Not really. And it's the least plausible platform possible aside from "we're going to have maintainer elections", because I really doubt the volunteer coders will want to listen to a word anyone on the admin team says in regard to balance changes specifically.
Goofball has gotten away with promising literal code changes in his platform before, so I'll assume this rule just isn't going to get enforced.
EDIT:
...nevermind, I saw kubisopplay's platform.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:43 pm
by Donglesplonge
read through bugsteps candidacy thread, for the most part it looks good, but i am of the personal opinion that you shouldn't be bringing everyone up to human level, you should be pushing humans down to nonhuman level.

NT is a slave corporation who owns your soul through a legal deal you agreed to, the workers are constantly subjected to the worst of the worst the galaxy has to offer, and thats if they even get you, sometimes your fellow workers just do.

its personal that i just don't want everything becoming easier, i like difficulty, but i also like being a human, which sucks because humans are easy mode, i don't want that i want a challenge, and its fair that what i believe is definitely not what everyone else believes, i just don't like the idea of everyone having the free access button by default, you can engage the AI like normal and then the interactions done, versus having to trudge around looking for a command staff member you can convince to open the door for any reason, which by obligation an AI would probably have to do, yeah they can alert people but by the time you've stolen something from some place you're probably long gone, and even still if they do honeypot you into an arrest for say you being let into a restricted area and you taking something, you just go "oh sweet so i can start cutting cameras now" and then go about your day being gods strongest nuisance.

theres many different ways it could go but i just don't want interaction with AIs becoming easier across the board, i don't like when things become easier to deal with in any circumstance as it promotes laziness.

i will say though if silipol gets reworked that'd probably help out alot so this is kinda just an "angry old man shakes his fist towards the clouds" type deal, i almost forgot about nonhuman heads, the ideas alright i don't really listen to command staff for the most part anyways partially because none of them have had anything worth saying that mattered that wasn't already known, even if you got the smart players to play it instead they're still gonna have to wrangle the ingrates that are working for them, which is possible but good fucking luck.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:58 pm
by Sightld2
Kubi.png

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:26 pm
by Jacquerel
Donglesplonge wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:43 pm read through bugsteps candidacy thread, for the most part it looks good, but i am of the personal opinion that you shouldn't be bringing everyone up to human level, you should be pushing humans down to nonhuman level.
i dont think we can make a game where no players are allowed to be heads of staff and the ai doesnt follow anyones instructions

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:43 pm
by kinnebian
STERREOOO

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:49 pm
by Sightld2
Stereo.png
stereo2.gif
stereo2.gif (1.47 MiB) Viewed 10425 times

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:02 pm
by AwkwardStereo
I didn't actually make all of those gifs, someone just started spamming them during the last debate every time I started speaking

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:58 pm
by Pepper
Fikou wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:28 am
wesoda25 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:05 am
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:46 am imagine, for a moment, if you will, if manuel players elected their own council of people to dictate MRP policy without ever having to risk LRP-oriented headmin-candidate lunatics like me burning their server to the ground.

that is what i want
Watermelon is better when grown next to wheat, not seperately scriptis!
QUINTS
Not getting the quints is probably the biggest blunder I will face this election... you can still check my dubs though.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 10:07 pm
by Fikou
checked

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:28 pm
by Chadley
checked

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:35 pm
by TheLoLSwat
A lot of these candidate policies could be made into policy threads

E: Also I was wondering what oranges was going to say about Stereo since he is literally on the fence of real campaign and meme campaign

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:47 am
by Turbonerd
I am automatically going to put all these balance "headmin candidates" right at the bottom. We do not need dedicated balance testers or coders. This is not a competitive game. If players are doing nothing but getting the best gear, bonk the powergamers, and help the antags with fun admin events to inspire them with roleplay.

The separation is absolute.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:50 am
by kinnebian
Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:47 am I am automatically going to put all these balance "headmin candidates" right at the bottom. We do not need dedicated balance testers or coders. This is not a competitive game. If players are doing nothing but getting the best gear, bonk the powergamers, and help the antags with fun admin events to inspire them with roleplay.

The separation is absolute.
elaborate on what you mean
just any of it
i dont understand

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:52 am
by Turbonerd
kinnebian wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:50 am
Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:47 am I am automatically going to put all these balance "headmin candidates" right at the bottom. We do not need dedicated balance testers or coders. This is not a competitive game. If players are doing nothing but getting the best gear, bonk the powergamers, and help the antags with fun admin events to inspire them with roleplay.

The separation is absolute.
elaborate on what you mean
just any of it
i dont understand
There are headmin candidates (kubi and bug) having dumb election based coding changes as their platform. It's not going to happen.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:53 am
by kinnebian
Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:52 am
kinnebian wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:50 am
Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:47 am I am automatically going to put all these balance "headmin candidates" right at the bottom. We do not need dedicated balance testers or coders. This is not a competitive game. If players are doing nothing but getting the best gear, bonk the powergamers, and help the antags with fun admin events to inspire them with roleplay.

The separation is absolute.
elaborate on what you mean
just any of it
i dont understand
There are headmin candidates (kubi and bug) having dumb election based coding changes as their platform. It's not going to happen.
thumbs up

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:12 am
by Chadley
Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:52 am
kinnebian wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:50 am
Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 12:47 am I am automatically going to put all these balance "headmin candidates" right at the bottom. We do not need dedicated balance testers or coders. This is not a competitive game. If players are doing nothing but getting the best gear, bonk the powergamers, and help the antags with fun admin events to inspire them with roleplay.

The separation is absolute.
elaborate on what you mean
just any of it
i dont understand
There are headmin candidates (kubi and bug) having dumb election based coding changes as their platform. It's not going to happen.
You're describing illegal platforms.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 1:30 am
by dendydoom
Fikou wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:28 am
wesoda25 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:05 am
Scriptis wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:46 am imagine, for a moment, if you will, if manuel players elected their own council of people to dictate MRP policy without ever having to risk LRP-oriented headmin-candidate lunatics like me burning their server to the ground.

that is what i want
Watermelon is better when grown next to wheat, not seperately scriptis!
QUINTS
bro that's not just quints that's clear quints it's worth like double holy shit

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:05 am
by RedBaronFlyer
These candidates that have never been admins are making it kind of obvious that they don't know how TG is structured and that admins and headmins do not control code (outside of headmins controlling configs, I think?)

Also, why on earth would anyone who has never been an admin for TG think it's a good idea to try and be elected to the top of the administration bureaucracy? Imagine voting in someone who has never worked in any lesser positions in governance to be in one of the highest positions.

Oh, wait.

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:53 am
by Archie700
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:05 am These candidates that have never been admins are making it kind of obvious that they don't know how TG is structured and that admins and headmins do not control code (outside of headmins controlling configs, I think?)

Also, why on earth would anyone who has never been an admin for TG think it's a good idea to try and be elected to the top of the administration bureaucracy? Imagine voting in someone who has never worked in any lesser positions in governance to be in one of the highest positions.

Oh, wait.
Kieth kind of worked because he had experience in adminning skyrat

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:55 am
by TheRex9001
Team stereo lets fucking gooooo, we taking it home!!!

Re: HEADMIN ELECTION 18 PEANUT:

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:08 am
by AwkwardStereo
TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:55 am Team stereo lets fucking gooooo, we taking it home!!!
im voting armodias and you should too
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