/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

why do some admins not understanding information scarcity
that the cultist was an albino isn't something the noted guy needs to know or should even have to worry about. the guy operated under the assumption that it was from blood loss and its creating these situations that those traits exist and give you points to spend on other stuff in the first place

Agux909 wrote: Second, noone here is "projecting" anything, I was and am still firm when I say people commenting about how the note is 100% deserved here are missing the point and not understanding the spirit of the rules: There was no malicious action nor any sort of "potential future behavior" to note for. As said before the appealer doesn't and didn't go around searching/suspecting everyone systematically until finding an antag, it was a specific circumstance in that specific understaffed sec roundstart that led him to follow his instincts and believe one way, and given that belief in that particular moment, a search was warranted.

As I said before and it should be clear for everyone, people in this game work with incomplete information and have their own "truth" of whatever they happen to believe at a given moment. At that moment the appealer believed the roboticist was a cultie, and acted upon it.

I don't think you know what incomplete information is, or the context in which it is used. This is an example of incomplete information. In the picture, Sally has no reason to believe the ball was moved, and will probably feel confused about the situation very shortly. Sally is about to take action based on incomplete information; we don't chastise her for not knowing better.
In the same manner, players are not punished for taking actions to the detriment of the station if they genuinely acted in the best interest with the information they had.
This has nothing to do with the note, the officer made a choice based on their complete metaknowledge of the game to the detriment of the round.
They were admonished not because of something they could not have known, but because they took an action when they knew too little to justify it.

Bold of you to claim to know whats detrimental to the round, you can then tell me with certainty then that cult steamrolling this round wouldnt be detrimental to the AI's round or people who just want to do their jobs or the security department. If anything my actions caused a balanced fight for the station.

You say i didnt have have enough information and i can just say i did have enough information, whos right here? How much is enough information? Maybe just tell us and we dont need a headmins decision since you clearly know.

Right, shutting up for real this time

Iatots wrote: wise words

Of course you only picked apart that single thing within my post to try to be smart about it instead of trying to understand what it meant as a whole.
nuff said

sec officer does this: shitler officer smh

assistant does this: sorry bud you just got minor ic conflict'd

that said it's still a bit cheeky, but gas mask wearers get what they deserve.

Istoprocent1 wrote:

SkeletalElite wrote:I think people are sleeping on the part about them being in HoPline.

Thats because it is completely irrelevant. "Asking for access unrelated to the job" falls under hunch level of proof.

How many hunches do you need before you're allowed to search someone? Losing is a part of the game. Antag rounds are not sacred. Yeah the cultist got unlucky that the detective made a good guess based on a few context clues, but that's the game.

Cobby wrote:sec officer does this: shitler officer smh

assistant does this: sorry bud you just got minor ic conflict'd

that said it's still a bit cheeky, but gas mask wearers get what they deserve.

No

cult would have steamrolled if I would not have validhunted 5 minutes into the round

Not true

antag rounds are not sacred

I think you need to put yourself in the situation "get cult get gas mask go to hopline get valided"

What im saying is please maybe don't behave like a screeching monkey with cymbals at the slightest sign of valid because no one likes to wait for a longer time just to get 5 minutes of antag play

he has flop in his name he might be based

Wtf why is timonk saying reasonable things in this thread??

SkeletalElite wrote:

Istoprocent1 wrote:

SkeletalElite wrote:I think people are sleeping on the part about them being in HoPline.

Thats because it is completely irrelevant. "Asking for access unrelated to the job" falls under hunch level of proof.

How many hunches do you need before you're allowed to search someone? Losing is a part of the game. Antag rounds are not sacred. Yeah the cultist got unlucky that the detective made a good guess based on a few context clues, but that's the game.

I posted a lenghty example. You cannot search based on hunches or even reasonable suspicion, unless there is a "crisis".

Last night John Irish did me dirty like this - with metaknowledge he knew I was not in sec, thus most likely an antag, I had gamer glasses, thus geared up and most likely an antag. He knew that he cannot act based on these hunches alone, so when he saw CE drop his axe, which I picked up in front of him, he then rushed me with a stun baton, because regardless of anything happening he got his probable cause - I was in possession of a deadly weapon (a crime).

Normally you would want to talk with people and be like "Hey, drop the fire axe!", especially if you see things happening in front of you. But if you are grudging and looking to ruin rounds for unsuspecting antags, then you can do John Irish. One option is to drop your police baton, anyone who picks it up is valid for search and a 5 minute sentence.

Cobby, gasmask is a simple code fix. Make it obstruct vision like Delta Station (ghost roles) security helmet. Suddenly people only be wearing it when there actually is an emergency.

to be clear i think this is kinda cringe, as we have clear indicators for cult when they are stomping to the point that someone with minor brute asking for access NEEDS to be searched.

The paranoia aspect was a bit odd considering there isn't much paranoia in tagging and searching people based entirely on circumstantial evidence.

Yeah, the feeling of paranoia is enhanced if you can't arrest or shoot anything that looks slightly off.

If you're looking for a feeling of pervasive paranoia in a deathtrap station, then this ruling is for the best, since it means that the most you can do is keeping an eye on the suspicious person, wondering if they might go off at any second, or if you're wasting your time doing so and not noticing other threats.

Taking them down and confirming whether there is a threat immediately is only better if your only goal is to win. And playing SS13 to win seems like it'd get old really fast, especially when you end up clashing against the roleplay rules more than the game itself to do so.

it gets boring very fast because you kill antags 5 minutes into their round

XDTM wrote: Taking them down and confirming whether there is a threat immediately is only better if your only goal is to win. And playing SS13 to win seems like it'd get old really fast, especially when you end up clashing against the roleplay rules more than the game itself to do so.

What roleplay rules? This is Terry not Manuel. Powergaming is a common practice in LRP servers, so I don't know what you're talking about.

I'm a Manuel main and I know this shit would not only be noted there, but banned. However I respect people wanting to play on a less restrictive environment where conflict can arise sooner and more often, both by antags and non-antags alike.

But it's ironic how the general view of Manuel from LRP mains is it being place where conflict doesn't exist because supposedly noone can do anything, and then you see other LRP mains here complaining and making points against classic power moves like these in LRP.

I mean I don't mind if you guys wanna make Terry into MRP, the faster MRP environment can be made a staple across all servers the better for me, I love MRP. But you're gonna start getting yelled at by some people around

LRP doesn't mean "lol i can do anything".

itt: lrp boys that just want to antag roll get pissed when good player stops them before they can get their epic gamer moment

Istoprocent1 wrote:LRP doesn't mean "lol i can do anything".

When in my post I said people can do anything?

Powergaming isn't EVERYTHING. If you want to restrict powergaming you need to restrict everything on the same level then: murderboning, tiding, validhunting, etc

In short, you need to make it MRP

Agux909 wrote:

Iatots wrote: wise words

Of course you only picked apart that single thing within my post to try to be smart about it instead of trying to understand what it meant as a whole.
nuff said

It's not my fault you have a hard time rubbing two braincells together. Extensive posts with numbered lists are not your jam, and pointing out the core issue with your train of thought is no good either.

You do not understand that "impartial information" is not a blank check to justify any spurious action you are about to take.
"Why did you disposal the clown when someone started a plasmafire in disposals?" "I didn't know there was a fire in disposals" <- understandable
"Why did you search a person when they had no clear indication of warranting it?" "I didn't know they weren't an antag" <- senseless

You do not understand that "losing is part of the game" is meant to cover situations in which a player suffers as a consequence of events outside their control and wholly unrelated to their character's progression, stemming from dozens of people all following their personal objectives.
This is not related to the current situation.
The discussion is centered on the rules that say how you can interact with the other players based on your role in the game. The officer needed in-game justification to take an in-game role defined action; they thought they were justified, someone disagreed.

Agux909 wrote:

Istoprocent1 wrote:LRP doesn't mean "lol i can do anything".

When in my post I said people can do anything?
Powergaming isn't EVERYTHING. If you want to restrict powergaming you need to restrict everything on the same level then: murderboning, tiding, validhunting, etc
In short, you need to make it MRP

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game, what LRP is, and what powergaming is. This is not deathmatch station 13, and LRP is not zero roleplay. Everyone has a role, everyone is permitted some actions based on their role. The game is designed with a structure in mind and players are expected to follow it, because if they don't the round suffers from it. Powergaming involves trying to play "optimally" in the pursuit of victory. Powergaming is not rulebreaking, you would not call a griefer a powergamer. What the officer did according to the admin was breaking the rules of the role: no searches without good cause.

As long as you can just willy-nilly murder the shit out of anybody you can see, you have to live with some fucking officer wanting to search you in your serial killer get-up.

And if you really can't, then hide your cultie shit & blend in with the crowd. I don't get this pussy footing in this thread about when an officer can search you, you're supposed to be the LRP crowd, you are balancing out rampant murderboning with rampant powergaming. Yeah it's a shit balance, but that's the poison you've picked, and bag searches is one of the basic first things to do whenever something looks suspicious, and if you are already at your wits end here, then you should concede that maybe you are shit at being an antagonist, and quit bitching about the unfair fate you just suffered from a powergaming shitlord officer.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is an MRP pussy" is all I am hearing from this thread tbh.

BONERMASTER wrote:As long as you can just willy-nilly murder the shit out of anybody you can see, you have to live with some fucking officer wanting to search you in your serial killer get-up.

And if you really can't, then hide your cultie shit & blend in with the crowd. I don't get this pussy footing in this thread about when an officer can search you, you're supposed to be the LRP crowd, you are balancing out rampant murderboning with rampant powergaming. Yeah it's a shit balance, but that's the poison you've picked, and bag searches is one of the basic first things to do whenever something looks suspicious, and if you are already at your wits end here, then you should concede that maybe you are shit at being an antagonist, and quit bitching about the unfair fate you just suffered from a powergaming shitlord officer.

I'm starting to see the point of those who said that an MRP server would lower the RP standards of the other servers.

You said yourself that it's a shit balance; it doesn't have to be that way. Even in an LRP context the game is simply more fun and interesting when there is sportmanship between antags and non-antags. There's that famous quote about players optimizing the fun out of the game if allowed; this is a form of that behaviour, which in my opinion needs to be reigned in by rules for the benefit of everyone involved.

That said, if we could expect something of the sort on the antag side as well it would be far easier to make it work, but any limitation to antag behaviour is seen as stepping into MRP, which makes the issue complicated.

Have you considered not rushing gasmasks roundstart all day erry day?

> I have selected the disablity trait that makes me look like i've lost blood to casual inspection in order to gain an advantage elsewhere

>Today i am a cult

>I will use my runes/blood powers roundstart, so that I have strange minor injuries

>I will now, carrying all my kit and wearing the mask every cultist wears to hide red eyes go to the HOPline to ask for access to the ritual site.

>Oh no, I got pulled over and searched and caught and game overed! What could I have possibly done to not get searched?!



((More seriously, cult callout used to happen a LOT from CMO watching the health monitors and noticing a bunch of people mysteriously all taking exactly 5 damage at once on sensors, which is in similar vogue)

And it was fucking cancer dorsi

wesoda25 wrote:And it was fucking cancer dorsi

Conversion antags are a cancer

Super Aggro Crag wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:And it was fucking cancer dorsi

Conversion antags are a cancer

Conversion antags are great because you usually don't just get game overed but rather recruited and you can keep playing.

You get to drop whatever you were working on and click on a red shirt until he goes horizontal how exciting

Dont immediately suicide rush security for your converter? Enjoy your bwoink for refusing to play antag right

crashmatusow wrote:Have you considered not rushing gasmasks roundstart all day erry day?

wheres the advantage in not having a gas mask

Timonk wrote:

crashmatusow wrote:Have you considered not rushing gasmasks roundstart all day erry day?

wheres the advantage in not having a gas mask

you have to remove it to eat, thats why monkey mask is superior

gas mask doesnt burn i think

If this was Manuel I would get the note, but it's not.

First, that's a lot of evidence that there's something fishy going on. I would've also stopped that person for an inspection. If you're wearing a gas mask in real life, do you think an officer would find you suspicious? How about if you're wounded? Look like you've lost a lot of blood?

Second, it WAS poor form to immediately stun and arrest the person. Did they ask for the other person to take off the mask to see their eyes? Not to my knowledge. Did they pull them aside and ask to search them first? No. Poor form especially five minutes into the round.

Third, regardless of poor form it doesn't break the rule on metagaming people. The point of fault was on the cultist for giving the officer four pieces of good evidence to follow up on. If the officer was randomly stumbling through maintenance stunbatoning people within five minutes, it'd fall under that rule, but the cultist was parading around in broad daylight. It's like punishing someone for guarding the captain's office from greytiders rushing the spare.

Fourth, does being an albino automatically protect you if someone thinks you're a cult member because of it? "Wow you should've known they were an albino based on the zero information you have on their genetic conditions." If so I'll make sure to go apply to the HoP to explore space early in the round so my uplink stetchkin seems legitimately received. Then the officer will be afraid to kill me for having syndicate gear and I can get the upper hand on them.

To summarize, the only reason they got a note was because it was A. An admin ahelping and B. didn't have good etiquette in their arrest. The note should say as much and label it as being a dick instead of pretending that they were breaking the rules and metagaming.

Also, this whole excuse that "notes are a record and not a punishment" is also BS. Just because it's a note doesn't mean it isn't bad for you, especially when the note is inaccurate. Every negative note that accumulates both puts the person in a bad light and increases the chances that the next admin to deal with them will also give a negative response. If that isn't a punishment I don't know what is. It's a great way to shove bias and inaccuracy under the rug as non-important and nothing more.

You know I wouldn't've minded if that was 20 minutes into the round with confirmed cult

Also spessmen isn't real life stop comparing it to that

On one hand you’re kinda a fag if you arrest people for having a gas mask, but on the other you’re kinda a fag for wearing one.

It is so baffling to me that people tell you to play on MRP if you want sec officers to not be the gestapo, but somehow wearing a mask in LRP is an out of character action worthy of getting the stunstick.

Gas masks are such an obvious clandestine tell it's weird we're coming for those now

hmm today i will have multiple signs of a cultist on myself
noooooo mr officer dont arrest me nooooooo my heckin antag round i was gonna cult stun you 5 minutes later and kill you in maint noooo

Hmmm today I will not stand out from the other Greys and get searched because I'm pale