/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:21 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 42#p591042

I don’t like jackrip, he’s ruined many an antag round of mine but...for fucks sake man this jannie is such a fucking loser

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:32 am**

Armhulen wrote:every round someone murderbones and 27 pop becomes 13 real quick just saying, and giving them more funnies to fight literally doesn't help at all

Hence bagils pop issues.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:35 am**

Respawning people as ERTs to get slaughtered for a possibility at stopping a murderboner has to be preferable to every dead player continuing to sit out and the killer going unchallenged. I've likened it to more cops in GTA before, they act as fun police that slowly overcome you unless you escape. I don't see what's stopping an admin spawning endless waves of ERT and the like until the person killing everyone dies.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:37 am**

wesoda25 wrote:
Armhulen wrote:every round someone murderbones and 27 pop becomes 13 real quick just saying, and giving them more funnies to fight literally doesn't help at all
Hence bagils pop issues.

Was so excited to see that someone else thinks what I've been saying for months that I drew this picture for you to put on your fridge

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:40 am**

Just want to say the jannie’s response solidifies my notion that his brain is just melting Swiss cheese

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:42 am**

jackrip wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:27 people from the game for up to an hour for the enjoyment of one.
If I'm murderboning I call the shuttle as soon as it can be called. Usually everyone's dead by 20 min anyways

I don't recall, I don't destroy consoles, I call at 23 minutes on the dot. This usually keeps pop from dropping too hard

You seem to be overlooking the selfishness of your playstyle. I understand it's impressive and gratifying but nothing you can do to mitigate the shittiness will stop it from being shit.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:44 am**

Jaredfogle wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:
Armhulen wrote:every round someone murderbones and 27 pop becomes 13 real quick just saying, and giving them more funnies to fight literally doesn't help at all
Hence bagils pop issues.
Was so excited to see that someone else thinks what I've been saying for months that I drew this picture for you to put on your fridge

Thank you jared fogle i will be putting this on my fridge

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:51 am**

It’s too big to fit on my fridge

Also I think it’s necessary to say that face rolling with smites doesn’t do it either; in the short term I would say that giving players chances to get back in the round is always preferable. In the long term though neither of these things serve to change behavior and you could argue sending ERTs/interns/whatever only serve to encourage it, however I think that’s the point when a talk is needed.

Depriving every player of fun just because a theory that you might be rewarding the murderboner seems a little odd to me.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:01 pm**

wesoda25 wrote: It’s too big to fit on my fridge

Damn.

wesoda25 wrote: Also I think it’s necessary to say that face rolling with smites doesn’t do it either; in the short term I would say that giving players chances to get back in the round is always preferable.

No, not at all. As much as I dislike the playstyle of people like Jackrip, this is still textbook admin-pushing-tee-hee-button bus fuckery. The admin didn't tell them what they think they did wrong until after he ahelped, and was arguably still rather cryptic. This is irresponsible, if you as an admin feel like someone should stop being a dick, then you should use the vast toolset that we provide to let you talk directly to them and get a direct response.

The admin clearly has a problem with Jackrip, and clearly dislikes his consistent playstyle:

Jackrip is well known for murderboning, valid hunting, and power gaming. I especially see them during my timeslot where I am often one of only two or three admins, the EST mornings. During this time, regardless of whether or not I'm playing or adminning, I will see Jackrip at the core of the conflict. If they're an antag, then a lot of people are dying/dead. If not, then they are usually one of the biggest threats to the antagonists. It was to absolutely no one's surprise when Jackrip killed virtually everyone during the round in question following the tradition of another killing spree, while only talking to complain about something or to vent their minor irritation in deadchat between revivals as a changeling. This was at both the station and the evac shuttle.

Which begs the question that if this admin has such a problem with Jackrip as to be fucking with them on their round as an antagonist, why did they completely meaninglessly make them fat and tie their shoes instead of acting like an actual arbiter of the well being of the servers and just enact Rule 0 for someone they clearly think is a problem player?!? I wouldn't have done it--I don't think I can decide that with any sense of neutrality, but what was THIS admin's holdup. They just end up looking like a jackass and end up having to go through the same PR blunder, except now nobody is on their side.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:25 pm**

I dont see how this isnt just straight admin abuse after dying if he really had such a problem with the murderbone he coulda asked in admin channels for someone else to join and look. Being directly involved in the round then smiting your murderer is possibly the stupidest thing an admin can do

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:56 pm**

also if someone's behaviour is a punishable ooc issue because they murderbone too much and you don't like it then bwoink them and note them don't just wordlessly smite them
the fact that the guy had to ask in deadchat the following round before he was told why he was being punished makes it bad even without the personal involvement part

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:04 pm**

i thought it was drilled into admins that we're not meant to touch antags that have killed us if we re-admin after death.
i don't care if someone has a rep for being robust enough to murderbone on a consistent basis; it doesn't and should never justify abuse of admin powers. we're meant to treat all players equally and without bias.

it takes what, 2 seconds to ask someone on discord to take over if you can't be unbiased? just admit that this was a fuck-up and apologise instead of doubling down.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:06 pm**

jackrip wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:27 people from the game for up to an hour for the enjoyment of one.
If I'm murderboning I call the shuttle as soon as it can be called. Usually everyone's dead by 20 min anyways

I don't recall, I don't destroy consoles, I call at 23 minutes on the dot. This usually keeps pop from dropping too hard

If one of the main defenses you can muster for your playstyle is that you mercifully end it after 20 minutes, then it sounds like your playstyle is complete cancer for everyone involved.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:16 pm**

Being better at the game than you isnt an actionable offense. Get fucking good, hugboxer.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:16 pm**

I'm curious as to why if this is solely impersonal and based on his shitty playstyle, did the admin sit-down-and-take-it-murder-boy retribution only happen on the round where the admin who observed all this behaviour was playing

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:19 pm**

Murderboning is retarded but so is thinking in terms of "reward vs. punishment" when someone is doing it. Find a way to keep the round interesting not mete out "justice" on a guy because people are shit at fighting back.
An example I suggested over a year ago was having a system automatically check the number of alive crew and spawning waves of ERT/Death Squad and possibly forcing an unrecallable shuttle which keeps people engaged and prevents a clearly finished round from continuing for too long.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Being better at the game than you isnt an actionable offense. Get fucking good, hugboxer.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:46 pm**

Do people who constantly murderbone not understand that

1) they are not the only murderbone main and especially in higher pop it can be several rounds in a row where people are doing this garbage
2) murderboning is easily the biggest reason why the servers dropped creative uses of antags. People want to play the game (surprise surprise) so eventually they get fed up with having to sit out for most of the time and start slowly gearing up more and more as well as start kosing antags regardless of action (because they don’t want to get their round ruined), which in turn means people just murderbone more since any creative use of the role gets rewarded with sitting out as well. Murderboning does not just ruin the round you’re in, it ruins the ability for antags to run gimmicks in later rounds because you now have people on edge.

People bitch over highly chaotic admin-inspired events and I can assure you this would be complaint city if it happened repeatedly for several rounds, but players who create a similar environment are not only allowed to do so but are also encouraged to do so since there is no recourse for people who only play to ensure others do not.

Rule 4 is the only rule people will die hard follow without any desire to allow context and other rules, such as rule 1, to be considered, and then the same people who enforce it can’t understand why people go to manuel or other servers (and you hope they’re staying on tg) because they literally cannot play the game except in the play style of tdm because anything else just has you sitting around for an hour thirty.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:49 pm**

Cobby wrote:Do people who constantly murderbone not understand that

1) they are not the only murderbone main and especially in higher pop it can be several rounds in a row where people are doing this garbage
2) murderboning is easily the biggest reason why the servers dropped creative uses of antags. People want to play the game (surprise surprise) so eventually they get fed up with having to sit out for most of the time and start slowly gearing up more and more as well as start kosing antags regardless of action (because they don’t want to get their round ruined), which in turn means people just murderbone more since any creative use of the role gets rewarded with sitting out as well. Murderboning does not just ruin the round you’re in, it ruins the ability for antags to run gimmicks in later rounds because you now have people on edge.

People bitch over highly chaotic admin-inspired events and I can assure you this would be complaint city if it happened repeatedly for several rounds, but players who create a similar environment are not only allowed to do so but are also encouraged to do so since there is no recourse for people who only play to ensure others do not.

Rule 4 is the only rule people will die hard follow without any desire to allow context and other rules, such as rule 1, to be considered, and then the same people who enforce it can’t understand why people go to manuel or other servers (and you hope they’re staying on tg) because they literally cannot play the game except in the play style of tdm because anything else just has you sitting around for an hour thirty.

Lol unrobust

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:49 pm**

if 20 of you are losing to 1 guy because 15 are sitting in their departments completely oblivious to anything outside a 3 tile radius, 2 are actively hunting him, 2 are AFK and 1 is screaming in large text over Common about the murderboner, you don't deserve to play in that round. Combat is part of the game and you suck at it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:54 pm**

Cobby wrote:words

remember when lings were super powerful and had incentives to betray and kill each other instead of being a co-op antag with insane combat buffs?
remember when having an esword just made the other traitors want to parapen loot c4 you?
every fucking ability and item is geared towards killing people and those that aren't (hypnoflash comes to mind) are just straight up garbage because you need to jump through a trillion hoops to use them
this is a code issue and not a player issue

ps fuck kuvros or whatever his name is

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:56 pm**

this feels more like a “aw man if only there were more robust assistants” to me so bar role players can continue their innocent talks

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:03 pm**

i miss u too manley

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:08 pm**

“You don’t like murderboning lol you must suck at combat” is not an argument. I used to chain murderbone and realized the impact it had on the game so stopped doing it everytime I got antag.

You are proving my point that the only way to respond to a murderbone is to act in a particular way. I realize combat is unavoidable during situations but when you force it constantly through constant murderboning you can’t be surprised people who want to do something other than play pvp where they are disadvantaged by nature of not rushing pvp-ideal routes within their job (not even considering most people who murderbone well only get into fights they know they’d win anyways AND use the latest cheese kill tactic) decide to just play on other servers, again hoping it’s manuel or another lrp server.

Constantly forcing people to play a certain way (not doing so means you sit out of the round) is only fun for people who wanted an excuse to play that way anyways.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:09 pm**

Cobby wrote:“You don’t like murderboning lol you must suck at combat” is not an argument. I used to chain murderbone and realized the impact it had on the game so stopped doing it everytime I got antag.

You are proving my point that the only way to respond to a murderbone is to act in a particular way. I realize combat is unavoidable during situations but when you force it constantly through constant murderboning you can’t be surprised people who want to do something other than play pvp where they are disadvantaged by nature of not rushing pvp-ideal routes within their job (not even considering most people who murderbone well only get into fights they know they’d win anyways AND use the latest cheese kill tactic) decide to just play on other servers, again hoping it’s manuel or another lrp server.

Constantly forcing people to play a certain way (not doing so means you sit out of the round) is only fun for people who wanted an excuse to play that way anyways.

Translation “I used to murderbone but then people killed me so I stopped”
Unrobust

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:16 pm**

Cobby wrote:stuff

I unironically agree with Cobby here but this is also a peenut thread about probably the most consistent murderboner since Lexia, god rest their soul, so voicing any meaningful opinion is basically equivalent to screaming a McDonald's order into a wind tunnel.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:18 pm**

terranaut wrote:eek eek

I would believe that if people stopped going antag because they are “just geared for killing”. You can murderbone with nonantag tools as well so I have a hard time believing the issue is rooted in the antag setup code end and not player behavior, which code has a much harder time bending.

If the convo is going to lead into “well it’s a code issue because people exhausted everything else the game has to offer so they can only get off to fighting other players” I’d just say post your contribs otherwise it’s an admin issue to help the burnt out stop trying to burn out the rest of the group.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:19 pm**

jannies and manuelcucks defending the admin doing the worst thing he could have done cause they have metagrudges towards a player who have never interacted with
LOL

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:21 pm**

If people were better at playing the game then murderboning wouldn't be a "constant problem" because they'd get their shit pushed in by the 15-80 other players. They keep doing it because 90% of you are so trash they get away with it. I've done it with a fucking TC toolbox.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:21 pm**

thehogshotgun wrote:*incoherent noises*

I’d like to inquire about the process for canceling my lease. I know it’s free and all but it feels like I’m taking advantage of the space that could be used to help you out.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:23 pm**

To be clear I’m not talking about krus the complaint is so obvious it would have been cringe to say the same thing for however many pages so it’s more interesting to discuss murderbone

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:26 pm**

Can we please ban "rent free" comments from forums sticky drove them into the ground and I can't stand can't STAND to see them anymore

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:27 pm**

wesoda25 wrote:Can we please ban "rent free" comments from forums sticky drove them into the ground and I can't stand can't STAND to see them anymore

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:28 pm**

cope seethe dilate based cringe etc

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:29 pm**

finally cobby's talking some sense

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:29 pm**

murderboners teaches noobs on how to fight so next time they see the same dude with a esword they will try to throw bolas at him instead of standing still saying please no

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:32 pm**

Most of the comments here are irrelevant, the complaint wouldn't hold any water if the admin hadn't died to the antag.

If they had logged on and observed and did these smites (or more) no-one could claim this was punishable behaviour.

Doing this after dying to the person you're smiting looking like admin abuse, and that's all there is to it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:34 pm**

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:murderboners teaches noobs on how to fight so next time they see the same dude with a esword they will try to throw bolas at him instead of standing still saying please no

Unless it's a wizard then you're justified in crying on the forums

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:41 pm**

nah fireballs make you learn that explosions trigger all your flashbangs you are carring as sec making you get stunned or using locker and chairs with monkeys as cover for the bolt gun spell and basic tactical knowledge like if wiz is hurt he is likely to tele to med storage to steal medkits

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:41 pm**

hmm yes today i will play high wizard and punish anyone who attempts to hurt me antag kill me beat him

ohoho he has attempted to message me i will now play the smoke and mirrors game under which cup is my reasonable response look closely (shuffles cups)

aside from "wow this is scummy" all I really have to say is I can't believe korol has come out with bad apple 2 since the admin complaint is "another bad apple"
when will we see bad apple 2 in the touhou fandom?? is the premiere date soon??

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:46 pm**

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:46 pm**

Cobby wrote:
thehogshotgun wrote:*incoherent noises*
I’d like to inquire about the process for canceling my lease. I know it’s free and all but it feels like I’m taking advantage of the space that could be used to help you out.

When you are so unrobust you think rent free is funny

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:05 pm**

Murderboning is about the least code-problem thing that I can think of in the game- unless we're going to remove everything that does damage, you can't stop it with code.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:08 pm**

but you can limit its impact on server health like my earlier suggestion

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:12 pm**

WineAllWine wrote:Most of the comments here are irrelevant, the complaint wouldn't hold any water if the admin hadn't died to the antag.

If they had logged on and observed and did these smites (or more) no-one could claim this was punishable behaviour.

Doing this after dying to the person you're smiting looking like admin abuse, and that's all there is to it.

good morning wineallwine,

i have chosen an extract taken from the admin rules listed under the admin conduct page on the wiki, which i suspect you are familiar with:

Don't cheat. Do not use admin powers for your own benefit. Don't use your powers to abuse other players.

to this extent, i feel as though your comment of 'no-one could claim this was punishable behaviour' is not foundationally true, as one could claim it is a violation of your rules.

best wishes,
bobbah 'bee' brown

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:12 pm**

jackrip wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:27 people from the game for up to an hour for the enjoyment of one.
If I'm murderboning I call the shuttle as soon as it can be called. Usually everyone's dead by 20 min anyways

I don't recall, I don't destroy consoles, I call at 23 minutes on the dot. This usually keeps pop from dropping too hard

this is a lie I see you drag on bone rounds >40 minutes, until EVERYONE on the station is dead

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:14 pm**

CoffeeDragon16 wrote:
jackrip wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:27 people from the game for up to an hour for the enjoyment of one.
If I'm murderboning I call the shuttle as soon as it can be called. Usually everyone's dead by 20 min anyways

I don't recall, I don't destroy consoles, I call at 23 minutes on the dot. This usually keeps pop from dropping too hard
this is a lie I see you drag on bone rounds >40 minutes, until EVERYONE on the station is dead

drag on deez nuts through your face

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:20 pm**

CoffeeDragon16 wrote:
jackrip wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:27 people from the game for up to an hour for the enjoyment of one.
If I'm murderboning I call the shuttle as soon as it can be called. Usually everyone's dead by 20 min anyways

I don't recall, I don't destroy consoles, I call at 23 minutes on the dot. This usually keeps pop from dropping too hard
this is a lie I see you drag on bone rounds >40 minutes, until EVERYONE on the station is dead

U mad bro

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:22 pm**

Readminning to mess with the person who killed you is incredibly poor optics regardless of reason and regardless of whether you genuinely had the right to do so.

"Justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done." - The mere appearance of bias or impropriety can completely erode what could otherwise be an objectively just outcome.

We don't allow players to take ghost roles and fuck with their killers for poor reasoning. Unless a player has broken the rules, why should admin tools be any different? Incidents like this make the tasks of every other admin harder as a result and erodes trust in the system of volunteers we've built up to help manage the game servers.

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:23 pm**

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:24 pm**

Give a player rule 4 for a round
then give them murder weapons they cant use outside of this round, which give them the ability to easily murder people
then give them no challenge outside of those they create for themselves(greentexting is piss easy even for a noob)
then act suprised when killing the crew is the only challenge present which is exclusive to antagonists and is done frequently
The solution is to give traitors an objective which endangers their life, thus giving them a challenge other than murderbone which they can go about in all the ways the game presents to them. This brings the player into conflict but also preoccupies them as not to encourage killing literally everyone.
For instance, what if traitors needed to aquire more than half the station's currency, paid in installments, and if they miss a payment, turn them into a gondola.

Also the admin is at fault, but nobody is seriously doubting that

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:30 pm**

what did yo smoke

Posted: **Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:39 pm**

i think several challenging concepts come up with this complaint:

1. what constitutes a low-pop environment? this would help to clarify if the administrator was right in taking action under the recently-ruled policy thread relating to administrators taking action on low-pop murderbone. the round in question had 27 crewmen.
2. what constitutes reasonable use of "their [admin] tools to speed the round along in isolated cases" (as the wording of the ruling says on the policy thread); should the player be targeted directly by an administrator like this, or should it be an action taken on a more station-wide level, like a forced shuttle call, or bringing dead players back into the fold as event mobs.
3. should we consider the more-defined approach of point 2, or is that too restrictive of administrators? we largely in part trust our administrators to make good judgement calls, and personally i feel point 2 may be something that does not require consideration.

i think in this case the administrator directly targeting the player looks bad, sure, but i am inclined to agree that they may have been trying to do so in the best of the server's interest. administrators are ultimately there to keep the game fun, and so the bottom question would be if this was both an abuse of their power against a player (possibly), and an ineffective way of keeping the round enjoyable for all players.

critically making considerations,
bobbah 'bee' brown

/tg/Station 13

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Policy Discussion Hijack LOL

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