/tg/Station 13

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viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32542

Dreary Doom = BREAKS NAME POLICY
Dendy Doom = Okay

this just seems like bullying, really

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:21 am

Drag wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:47 am

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:54 am

Drag wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:39 am I wish we had an actual naming policy if we're gonna bother trying to enforce it at all. Rather than what we have which is "if an admin thinks your name is stupid you have to change it." If it was ACTUALLY up to me a lot of y'all would need to go touch grass and think of a better name.

i disagree with your take (and i think its bad) because youve in the past thought that soup wasnt a good moth name (it is)

Soup is a bad moth name and I will continue to think this until there is an actual policy that encourages names like this

i love the idea that moth names are nicknames or given names because their real moth names are completely incomprehensible

soup, in my eyes, is one of the best moth names because of this

i think people also forget that we give people nicknames all the time in real life and actually go by them over their real names

See I can get behind this, I hate it when its just "Well Im a moth so I can"

Drag wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:16 am

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:21 am

Drag wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:47 am

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:54 am

Drag wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:39 am I wish we had an actual naming policy if we're gonna bother trying to enforce it at all. Rather than what we have which is "if an admin thinks your name is stupid you have to change it." If it was ACTUALLY up to me a lot of y'all would need to go touch grass and think of a better name.

i disagree with your take (and i think its bad) because youve in the past thought that soup wasnt a good moth name (it is)

Soup is a bad moth name and I will continue to think this until there is an actual policy that encourages names like this

i love the idea that moth names are nicknames or given names because their real moth names are completely incomprehensible

soup, in my eyes, is one of the best moth names because of this

i think people also forget that we give people nicknames all the time in real life and actually go by them over their real names

See I can get behind this, I hate it when its just "Well Im a moth so I can"

Me on my way to go name myself Soup McLamp

I went on Bee as a Moth named Soup for multiple rounds not too long ago. Everyone loved it and I heard not a peep of issue from anyone. This was in their enhanced roleplay environment.

Their naming guidelines are also pretty fantastic: https://wiki.beestation13.com/view/Naming_Guidelines

Paradise station names are terrible

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:50 pm I went on Bee as a Moth named Soup for multiple rounds not too long ago. Everyone loved it and I heard not a peep of issue from anyone. This was in their enhanced roleplay environment.

Their naming guidelines are also pretty fantastic: https://wiki.beestation13.com/view/Naming_Guidelines

> Human: Normal human names, the kind that won’t raise an eyebrow if you chose to name your child.

Somehow I can see this being even more arbitrarily enforced than our current naming policy for humans, and would certainly wipe a lot of our silly pun names off the radar right?

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:50 pm I went on Bee as a Moth named Soup for multiple rounds not too long ago. Everyone loved it and I heard not a peep of issue from anyone. This was in their enhanced roleplay environment.

Their naming guidelines are also pretty fantastic: https://wiki.beestation13.com/view/Naming_Guidelines

> Names containing "Moth" or "Lamp" are not permitted.

Is it that simple? I don't believe this

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:48 pm what a useless ass headmin term of useless fucking middle managers, honestly, all we did was remove things from the codebase last term

Truly incredible how coders can just make the game worse by removing things and then and then blame it on the admins/players. Genuinely impressive level of mental gymnastics

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:34 pm

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:50 pm I went on Bee as a Moth named Soup for multiple rounds not too long ago. Everyone loved it and I heard not a peep of issue from anyone. This was in their enhanced roleplay environment.

Their naming guidelines are also pretty fantastic: https://wiki.beestation13.com/view/Naming_Guidelines

> Human: Normal human names, the kind that won’t raise an eyebrow if you chose to name your child.

Somehow I can see this being even more arbitrarily enforced than our current naming policy for humans, and would certainly wipe a lot of our silly pun names off the radar right?

It would be devastating to our pun game

Other thoughts:

Toaster the moth says, "AI MILF!".

Policy-via-appeal, which Timber is doing here, is a pretty shitty experience for the player. I would way rather have a policy thread so a player doesnt have to go through an ordeal (and it is an ordeal) for something that may or may not be wrong

(Minor edit: by -> via to match Timber's wording)

This sure does have me wondering if I'll have to change my character's name after 5 years of playing them depending on how this goes. It's not particularly that different from Dreary's.

There should be proper nicknames so that way you have a legal (snooze boring) name and then if you want to have a more cutesy name that people see you as you have that option.

Or be evil and just add a way to change your "genetic" name ingame so that way every name policy is moot

I don't understand why admins give themselves extra work by going after names and endless appeals over it when the name isn't even something juvenile but rather Doom.

what a disappointing outcome

Should have picked the name Dr Dendy 'Dreary' Doom

how did the headmins manage to fumble this what the fuck this was the slowest ball possible

why can't we get a headmin term that gets anything done

I was going to pack it for the next six months, but Timber actually rejected the headmin decision, and just accepted the appeal. That's an unexpected move, and it's bound to cause some infighting, I imagine.
Nevertheless, this headmin team is very dubious, so I'll just pack it anyway, but I'll check back in here every once in a while! See you (soon)!

With packing regards
-BONERMASTER

All that was really needed was "We don't think Timberpoes was wrong to ban the name at the time. Although we're not mindful to overturn this immediately, we also feel it's a valid enough name that could fit the setting. We'd like to encourage Timberpoes to re-assess their stance with this in mind."

All the other parts were a bit too grandstandy for me. I actually had to ping headmins on Discord to try and figure out what the ruling was because I couldn't fully understand why my rejection was upheld on first reading. I re-read it a few more times to grasp what was being said. What a load of waffle that headmin response had in it.

Appeals are always biased in favour of admins. We have a direct line to headmins, we generally know what to say and how to approach things better than players. We know the rules (supposedly). We know the policies (sometimes). We know admin team culture in enforcing them (usually). Unwritten rules (or we make our own unwritten rules as we go).

The headmin team's role is to protect the players from poor admin decisions, and the playerbase from poor player decisions. Part of that involves reading between the lines and looking at the objective merits of both sides regardless of the appeal content. Understanding that admin-bias in appeals and accounting for it is key.

Only in exceptional circumstances should a headmin team rule "the appeal has merit, but we don't like the way you appealed so we're rejecting it. Try again in 3-6 months."

I appreciate that you chose to weigh the merit of this above all else regardless of the outcome, but this seems like a mess...

I've always been wary of Rave as an admin because while he was fun on server, his ticket handling always rubbed me the wrong way. He cared more about tone than about what was actually happening. Frustrated because you're being griefed and open your ticket saying "(X) is being a cunt." and you get it silent closed. Repeatedly. Without any indication of what he actually wants from you.

I'm disappointed to see this come through in his headminning.

dude what the absolute ass blast of a headmin reply holy shit

This is probably the first time in an appeal I can empathize with both the admin, and the player, but not the headmin decision.

What a rollercoaster. The only way this could get any better is if Rave decided he doesn't like Timberpoes's decision to accept the appeal, and forces the rejection. There's no way that would happen though, right? Right?

Also, for irony,
If this is how Rave acts the first time he gets to post a headmin decision I'd hate to see how he acts the second time it happens.

I'm not sure if the headmin response being preachy, rude, and overly-wordy was a joke? Like, the response is criticising the guy for being those things, so it's a joke right?

Tearling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:44 pm The only way this could get any better is if Rave decided he doesn't like Timberpoes's decision to accept the appeal, and forces the rejection. There's no way that would happen though, right? Right?

HAH. HAHAHAH. HAHAHAHAHAHAH.

For reference to anyone late to the party, after the headmin response I reversed my stance and accepted the appeal despite my inital rejection and the headmins upholding my decision. That's what the deleted messages are about.

The part of the headmin response that mattered to me (the ruling on whether the name was okay or not) meant that I no longer needed to stand by my rejection.

... At its core "this character name seemed fitting for a wacky space sci-fi flick" [would work].

My thought process was based on it not being a name fitting for the setting. If that argument would work, then the basis for my rejection is certainly flawed and is so flimsy of a foundation to apply bare discretion that I didn't feel it was a just outcome.

If dendydoom appeals it again later on this term (Which the headmin suggested they could do as part of making them use "Dreary" as a nickname instead. What's the point of this other than to flex on the player? Were we making them re-appeal just so we could reject it again?) and simply leave the entire appeal blank, I would accept it today anyway on the basis of that one bit of the headmin response that was relevant to me.

However, the method in which I reversed my decision was act first first then tell the headmins what I'd done after. Beg forgiveness instead of permission and all that. I shoulder my full part of the responsibility for choosing to resolve it in this manner, which was procedurally unacceptable and looks to undermine the authority of the headmin team after giving a ruling.

And, of course, now I'm in very spicy water for it. And my reversal has been reversed anyway so it was a pretty pointless exercise in independent decision making on my part.

However, speaking personally? I was happy they had my back, but not happy that the outcome was that my decision was upheld when it's clear their reasoning provided good arguments against my decision.

There's no winning or losing in appeals. It's not about egos or right and wrong. They're just a process to ensure the rules are enforced correctly and fairly, and that a little common sense is applied where necessary. And I thought common sense could have applied here with me revisiting the appeal in light of all the information. Making a better decision with more information and context.

I thought the headmin team would be happy that the appeal was solved amicably between myself and dendydoom. That both sides were satisfied with the outcome in retrospect of the headmin ruling. That it was a final-final outcome a bunch of the community could agree with too. That's like everyone winning. I didn't think it would blow up into a such a stupid shitshow to actively enforce a status quo that is unwanted by all other parties.

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:35 am why can't we get a headmin term that gets anything done

Ya know a couple hours ago I was gonna snarkily respond to this about how "The headmins are too compassionate, considerate, and willing to compromise to pass through radical changes and that's why nothing gets done"
But.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I've never seen someone get fucked this hard by requesting headmin review in my life.

what the fuck

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:49 pm

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:35 am why can't we get a headmin term that gets anything done

Ya know a couple hours ago I was gonna snarkily respond to this about how "The headmins are too compassionate, considerate, and willing to compromise to pass through radical changes and that's why nothing gets done"
But.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

A finger curls on the monkey's paw.

This peanut rules

lmao what the actual fuck "you used too many words we're taking your ability to disagree away"

i cannot stress this enough

what the fuck did i just witness

this is easily the worst thing i have ever seen come out of tg administration

firstly, the name was completely fine
second, there was no reason for the appeal to be denied in the first place
third, there was no reason for timber to use the player as a way to push policy- we should never intentionally gut our decisions on appeals in favor of trying to establish "policy", because that's what policy discussion is all about
fourth, what the actual fuck was that headmin reply?
fifth, the terms of the appeal are completely fucking stupid. "dance for us monkey!" why does the player need to put "Dreary" in the middle of their name for a month just to be able to play as Dreary Doom? they were able to play as Dreary Doom for 100+ rounds and had no issue until timber stepped in

like, okay, i was an admin, i understand that there's a huge issue that when people appeal they type paragraphs upon paragraphs and expect you to reply to all of it. i get that. but the personal attacks against the player are completely uncalled for. they were baseless. completely pointless. and to extend that to a first time appealer? disappointing.

what a fucking ball drop.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:17 pm *struggling*

Perhaps this moment will be instructive in teaching you to be more wary of what you choose to enforce. You reversing your position in this matter not only revealed that deep down you disagree with your own judgement, but has also embarrassed your superiors that backed you. Now, it has turned into a proper embarrassment for the whole server. Not the brightest moment for TG, that's for sure. Best of success, I truly hope that you understood your error.


With parting regards
-BONERMASTER

BONERMASTER wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:44 pm Perhaps this moment will be instructive in teaching you to be more wary of what you choose to enforce. You reversing your position in this matter not only revealed that deep down you disagree with your own judgement, but has also embarrassed your superiors that backed you. Now, it has turned into a proper embarrassment for the whole server. Not the brightest moment for TG, that's for sure. Best of success, I truly hope that you understood your error.


With parting regards
-BONERMASTER

lol

I know it's taboo and forbidden for me to post in here but Rave has seen fit to delete my post and lock the thread so I am without means of recourse.

I don't know where to begin or what to say. Nothing in any of the posts in my appeal were ever made to be insulting or unfairly critical of anyone or "self righteous" as Rave has seen fit to put it.

He has claimed that I have taken "pot shots" at him with my response yet I was merely responding to the specific contents of a post he made where he implied I was being histrionic, that I had a bad attitude, that I was demonstrating bad behaviour, that I was a problem player, and implied that I am difficult to deal with. Is any of that true? In all of my time playing I have never been spoken to for my behaviour. I play the game by the rules and when I feel that I disagree then I take the time and effort to communicate my argument respectfully in the appropriate channels because, until now, I have had faith that people who get into the headmin position are responsible enough to deliberate them with a modicum of impartiality. All I am guilty of is writing too much, which, fair enough, sorry for making you read a lot of words.

What did I even say that was so wrong to receive such pettiness in kind? Did I not grovel appropriately enough to appease his ego? Is that my responsibility? I didn't even ask for a headmin review in the first place, I said that I had made my argument with a headmin review in mind because I was already convinced that it was going to end up there. Timber asked for a headmin review because they felt they had made an application of the precedent fairly and wanted input from the headmins on what their opinion of this application of naming policy is. I would invite anyone to scour every inch of what I said and point out to me exactly where anything I said stepped over the line or was disrespectful. Every response I made was in reaction to a point that was being levied against me.

I'm honestly speechless, which is a new experience for me. Usually I'm capable of cranking out an essay on anything.

Even after we asked you to reduce your words down you're still going off with self-righteous verbiage and now you're taking pot shots at me.

I'm locking this, we don't want to read another essay from you.

Nobody cares what I think, but this is a peanut thread so

I maintain that naming policy is a crock of shit and is arbitrarily enforced at nearly complete random. The only naming policy we should have is "no names that are obviously just overt references to real prominent figures like actors, criminals and so on."


Generally I respect Timber but on this specific matter I think they're full of shit. Suffice to say there is no shortage of names out there on Manuel that have been active for similar lengths of time, or longer, and not had any action taken against them. This is just fucking with Dreary for reasons that are unclear to me and it shouldn't be happening.

Aeri wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:57 pm Generally I respect Timber but on this specific matter I think they're full of shit. Suffice to say there is no shortage of names out there on Manuel that have been active for similar lengths of time, or longer, and not had any action taken against them. This is just fucking with Dreary for reasons that are unclear to me and it shouldn't be happening.

You know that timber attempted to change his position, but the headmin rejected it, right?
In this case, I believe it is not Timberpoes you should be criticizing, it is the headministration, or specifically Rave who worded the rejection.

Tearling wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:11 pm

Aeri wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:57 pm Generally I respect Timber but on this specific matter I think they're full of shit. Suffice to say there is no shortage of names out there on Manuel that have been active for similar lengths of time, or longer, and not had any action taken against them. This is just fucking with Dreary for reasons that are unclear to me and it shouldn't be happening.

You know that timber attempted to change his position, but the headmin rejected it, right?
In this case, I believe it is not Timberpoes you should be criticizing, it is the headministration, or specifically Rave who worded the rejection.

I mean, Whoever

I'm gonna go on a bit of a drunken rant here. So fuck it. I'm more than a little frustrated with the final approch, and I'm going to vocalise a few too many words why...

So I'm gonna write a wall, and tgstation is gonna pay for that wall. Trump would be proud.

I really enjoy the freedom to speak out more that comes with not being a headmin. I no longer have to bite my tongue for the benefit of not appearing disunified or whatever else. I'm just speaking as me.

And for reference, no I have nothing better to do on a Sunday night. I've had a good weekend and I've been with good company, so my spirits are high and my keyboard is loaded for bear.

I took the part of their headmin review I actually asked for and applied it, reassessing my own stance. Claiming headmin overlordship over the appeal just because I asked for them to review my decision is shortsighted when you consider the purpose of ban appeals in general. I think me reconsidering based on what the headmins said to end up with an outcome that everyone can support is one of the core purposes of our appeals process and should have just been left alone because everyone was happy at the end and that so rarely happens in appeals.

Honestly? There's no way this note will actually stand. I already removed the note when I accepted the appeal. It's gone. As far as I'm concerned, the appeal should be over now too. And I hope it gets resolved quickly.

I fully reserve the right to be wrong all the way up to the 11th hour and beyond while still having the ability to change my mind, even after the headmins have ruled to agree with my previous position, based on additional/new/previously unknown/hot off the press information.

In saying I was right, the headmins ironically said enough that I feel I was wrong to have denied the appeal. C'est la vie, thought I. Time to do right by the player and chew a little humble pie, thought I. I cited the headmins' own reasoning in me accepting the appeal after they supported me denying it. Because it's not about winning internet points. There's no point being right on a technicality when you're actually wrong in practice. To me, it's about being the best I can be as a person, as an admin, as anything.

All I asked was for the headmins to make a value call on the name. I understood a strong possibility that considering my use of discretion would interweave with naming policy in general because I know my decision had mixed support within the admin team.

I didn't expect they'd uphold my decision with a reason that's basically - the name could be valid, dendydoom's appeal was "histrionic" and they wrote too many words.

And on that specific point, I'm gonna really rant now...

I asked for them to review **my** decision and provide oversight over **my** use of discretion. I didn't ask them to review anything from dendydoom's part other than the validity of the name "Dreary Doom". The rest of that was just them having a go at a player for writing too many words.

"This is simply a case of whether the headmin team feels the name is acceptable or not by a mix of their own views and naming policy's current place on the servers" - I feel I made it pretty clear what I cared for from them in my opening post of the appeal.

Dendydoom is a good player. They appealed my dumbshit ruling. It's my fault they wrote so much because they knew exactly who they were appealing to: me. And I'm the one that escalated the appeal to the headmins, to provide oversight of my dumbshit decision making process. Which they did, but in a totally unexpected and, in some ways, not entirely wanted way.

So I have absolutely no interest in supporting the comments made in either headmin post towards dendydoom. Doubly so when I asked for the headmin review. It's not dendydoom's problem. It's my problem.

Those comments were absolutely uncalled for. I genuinely ask the current term takes that onboard as a collective when agreeing what draft responses to put out publicly in the future.

Sure, to me dendydoom's appeal felt like it was a bit dramatic - and I did say that. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with how they appealed or their approach to responding to me in their appeal. It was done in good faith and the only basis I originally rejected the appeal was standing by my own opinion of their name.

I'm going to get another cocktail. My cheeks are flush like a beetroot and I've got pins and needles in my face, and my eyes feel very warm, so it must be working.

overthrow the headmins

guillotine now

Well, this is distressing. I don't think I've seen an appeal pivot this hard before, or an admins own opinion get discarded in an appeal they handled. Not only co-opting their appeal but also disregarding their final decision not on their process, but the original appeal. Boy, that's gonna be a critical hit to the morale of the team.

Maybe some of you admin folk should consider packing your bags.

Honestly, I'm getting serious fulpstation vibes from the headmin response on this appeal. "You disagree with us? You have a bad attitude." That sort of feel.

Listen ok I hate manuel players as much as the next guy.
Moving past that, did the headmins really just deny an appeal just cause they didn't like the look of the guy?
Like reading the post, it seems like they think the name was fine, so did they really deny it just cause dreary was a bit melodromatic and towerposted?
Listen man I know I talk about having people's backs but like brother.

Also dear everyone else, you guys are cocoposting again, don't cocopost. The manuelcord did it like a year back and it was fucking stupid. There's more then one headmin.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:33 pm Also dear everyone else, you guys are cocoposting again, don't cocopost. The manuelcord did it like a year back and it was fucking stupid. There's more then one headmin.

All I see are 3 admins stood on eachothers' shoulders in a trenchcoat.

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:33 pm Moving past that, did the headmins really just deny an appeal just cause they didn't like the look of the guy?

Yes.
They also decided to overrule the admin decision (Timber decided to accept the appeal), meaning that everyone involved is now unhappy, including the player, and the admin. I would be surprised if the headmins are happy with the outcome of the situation, but I suppose if they are, at least a few people are happy as a result.

Also, here's a post of Raveradbury being overly dramatic and towerposting, the exact behavior he is criticizing the player for.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28804#p596004

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:48 pm I know it's taboo and forbidden for me to post in here but Rave has seen fit to delete my post and lock the thread so I am without means of recourse.

I don't know where to begin or what to say. Nothing in any of the posts in my appeal were ever made to be insulting or unfairly critical of anyone or "self righteous" as Rave has seen fit to put it.

He has claimed that I have taken "pot shots" at him with my response yet I was merely responding to the specific contents of a post he made where he implied I was being histrionic, that I had a bad attitude, that I was demonstrating bad behaviour, that I was a problem player, and implied that I am difficult to deal with. Is any of that true? In all of my time playing I have never been spoken to for my behaviour. I play the game by the rules and when I feel that I disagree then I take the time and effort to communicate my argument respectfully in the appropriate channels because, until now, I have had faith that people who get into the headmin position are responsible enough to deliberate them with a modicum of impartiality. All I am guilty of is writing too much, which, fair enough, sorry for making you read a lot of words.

What did I even say that was so wrong to receive such pettiness in kind? Did I not grovel appropriately enough to appease his ego? Is that my responsibility? I didn't even ask for a headmin review in the first place, I said that I had made my argument with a headmin review in mind because I was already convinced that it was going to end up there. Timber asked for a headmin review because they felt they had made an application of the precedent fairly and wanted input from the headmins on what their opinion of this application of naming policy is. I would invite anyone to scour every inch of what I said and point out to me exactly where anything I said stepped over the line or was disrespectful. Every response I made was in reaction to a point that was being levied against me.

I'm honestly speechless, which is a new experience for me. Usually I'm capable of cranking out an essay on anything.

sorry, he deleted your post in your appeal?

file an admin complaint and contact MSO

>at this time we are treating the turnover to headmins and subsequent ruling as a forfeit of overturning rights.

...I dont understand what this means