/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Pie throwing is a restricted prank NO MOONLIGHTING.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:53 pm On another tangent, it is a rather unusual situation that ~15 unrelated players hate a group of players so much that they would resort to "meta-grudging" (emphasize on the quotations because once again, someone has to be grief to qualify for that in the first place). Aren't they actually the ones ruining people's fun if so many people dislike them? I don't have enough information to actually judge that though.

To be fair, it's a commonly said thing by admins that if you see someone else breaking the rules, ahelp it instead of breaking them too, because otherwise then you just have two rulebreaks for them to handle. It's entirely possible they ARE doing something about it, and we just can't see it because we're not in adminbus.

I just realized this note appeal really reminds me of this thing I made earlier this year for a different Manuelmin dust up

Farquaar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:45 pm I just realized this note appeal really reminds me of this thing I made earlier this year for a different Manuelmin dust up

politely refutes a point the admin made that was entirely inaccurate
"was argumentative and combative in ahelp"

Sightld2 wrote:If the same person or several people have thrown pies at you several rounds in a row? Yeah. I think that's fair.

I need to contact the admins about players who sign up to play as clown, and throw pies at me.
I think I'm being unfairly targeted by the clown metagang.

You'd think if it was happening enough to be considered metagrudging they'd at least learn to duck, right?

disliking people is now illegal, everyone please be nice to me constantly and give me validation 24/7

i was curious what the fuck happened here so i decided to dig into this, and it's pretty fucking pathetic.

so a few days before the initial note, the offending player had sprayed paint in the faces of three catgirls all lined up. lex only said "mark of shame" and that's about it. the catgirls go up to sec and demand the arrest of lex for "assaulting people" and saying he was going around and spray painting everyone. lex was arrested, and upon release he concocted a smoke grenade filled with space drugs and then detonated it at the group of catgirls about 35 minutes later (they killed him- which is fair enough, he didn't put up a resistance, but it's hard to against a .357). in the next round, lex went up to the Grudged Player and said "I APOLOGISE", to which her response was "Fuck off". From there, this is their only interactions beyond lex chopping their zombified corpse a day or two later- and throwing a pie at their face.

so, this is metagrudging folks. throwing a singular pie at someone days after you have an IC escalation and the other party denying attempts at trying to make amends.

This feels like "everyone's a jerk, just fucking deal with the problem NOW or we will continue to have this argument where nothing gets resolved and everyone gets unhappy".

It was a fuckin yarnchaser? Holy fuck why do we tolerate these things

CoffeeDragon16 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:30 pm images

something to consider is that they played 21 rounds between the space drug grenade incident and pie throw. they play like 7 rounds a day on average. this person like genuinely needs to take a break if they’re getting twisted about pies

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:40 am i was curious what the fuck happened here so i decided to dig into this, and it's pretty fucking pathetic.

so a few days before the initial note, the offending player had sprayed paint in the faces of three catgirls all lined up. lex only said "mark of shame" and that's about it. the catgirls go up to sec and demand the arrest of lex for "assaulting people" and saying he was going around and spray painting everyone. lex was arrested, and upon release he concocted a smoke grenade filled with space drugs and then detonated it at the group of catgirls about 35 minutes later (they killed him- which is fair enough, he didn't put up a resistance, but it's hard to against a .357). in the next round, lex went up to the Grudged Player and said "I APOLOGISE", to which her response was "Fuck off". From there, this is their only interactions beyond lex chopping their zombified corpse a day or two later- and throwing a pie at their face.

so, this is metagrudging folks. throwing a singular pie at someone days after you have an IC escalation and the other party denying attempts at trying to make amends.

On top of all this, I'd like to point out the admin in question is extending this protection to the entire meta-friend group.

Sightld2 wrote:Firstly. It was my assumption that this player was effected by the smoke bomb. However, even with them not,I considered this note to be a warning for meta-grudging this entire group at large, not just this one player, this is another reason I left out the exact specific of the context, given that the note doesn't entirely refer to the triggering context, but the one prior to it as well. I understand that I may not have conveyed this very well in our ticket conversation.

Does this go against Rule 2 precedent 3?
The admin is giving the meta-friends, knowing they are meta-friends, blanket protections.
This whole thing feels icky. I doubt it'll be upheld, but if it is, I promise to make a Newbie's Guide to Manuel Metagroups document so every new player can choose which metagroup they want to join so they can get metagang protection from their affiliated admins.

Tearling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:27 pmThis whole thing feels icky. I doubt it'll be upheld, but if it is, I promise to make a Newbie's Guide to Manuel Metagroups document so every new player can choose which metagroup they want to join so they can get metagang protection from their affiliated admins.

As a manual main, I'd love to see an up-to-date metagang thing, even if it was a meme. I'm part of the non-aligned movement.

Join the non-aligned movement on Manuel today! Benefits include... uh... that people tend to forget about you most of the time I guess?

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:58 pm

Tearling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:27 pmThis whole thing feels icky. I doubt it'll be upheld, but if it is, I promise to make a Newbie's Guide to Manuel Metagroups document so every new player can choose which metagroup they want to join so they can get metagang protection from their affiliated admins.

As a manual main, I'd love to see an up-to-date metagang thing, even if it was a meme. I'm part of the non-aligned movement.

Join the non-aligned movement on Manuel today! Benefits include... uh... that people tend to forget about you most of the time I guess?

The main hard part with making a metagang chart is just how easy it would be for someone random to come in and delete everything. If I was to make an up-to-date one it would require some kind of verification system, but that'd make it hard to complete the chart.

Tearling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:03 pm The main hard part with making a metagang chart is just how easy it would be for someone random to come in and delete everything. If I was to make an up-to-date one it would require some kind of verification system, but that'd make it hard to complete the chart.

You can just revert the edit

Families 5.0 now includes a patron admin for each gang to grant boons and smite rivals

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:53 pm He's actually still calling throwing the pie grief. Noting for this sets a horrible precedent, for the player this still means: 2 pies = metagrudging, it is the death of any type of conflict instigation for fear of being bwoinked.

On another tangent, it is a rather unusual situation that ~15 unrelated players hate a group of players so much that they would resort to "meta-grudging" (emphasize on the quotations because once again, someone has to be grief to qualify for that in the first place). Aren't they actually the ones ruining people's fun if so many people dislike them? I don't have enough information to actually judge that though.

When I raised an issue about the meta-furry clique I was basically told to 'go back to digg', so it seems at least one admin is either protecting them or doesn't care enough to deal with them.

I can say it's infuriating dealing with the cat-girl gang though because no matter the context, the situation or anything, even if they're playing in completely different departments - they'll always be together, silently dragging each other around and barely interacting with other non-affiliated players.

God help you if one of them is your target (see my post yesterday). They'll team up together, defend each other with zero RP context and make it impossible for you to do your objectives, because they'll 'just know' where the other is, when to rescue them (despite not being security/paramedic etc) and will work together to kick the shit out of you for bothering them - even if it objectively goes against the common sense of the round.

If one of them happens to role antag, suddenly they're a friendly shadowling or friendly wizard, which makes that specific antag role redundant for anyone else trying to enjoy the chaos and drama of the game. Instead there'll be a friendly shadowling interacting with the same 2 or 3 players, blowing kisses at each other.

Annoying, but if certain admins are protecting them. There's not much to do about it.

HOLY SHIT IT'S MARIANNE CATLAY AGAIN.

Let me tell you the story of my singular encounter with Marianne Catlay and her catgirl metafriend, Madelyn Finch, on a choice visit to Manuel a few weeks ago in which I rolled traitor.

It was a dark and stormy night. After killing the captain and HoS, I decided to subvert both borgs, "Doorbot" and "E.R.U.," because I didn't want them getting in the way of my traitoring. Eventually I roll the sleeper agent surgery objective, and stumble upon a Chaplain named Madelyn Finch. I try to roleplay a bit and convince her to accept my "experimental surgery," but she's immediately hostile. A minute doesn't go by before her catgirlfriend, none other than Marianne Catlay, walks up between us, and tries to convince me to do it on her instead (real white knight type shit). I think, uhh no, I'm a traitor, I don't make compromises! I'm going to do it on the person I set out to do it on initially!

Cue the all-out tribal warfare of the full force of the Catlay gang after me. My own subverted borg, Doorbot, stunarms me in the midst of my altercation with them, forcing me to activate my EMP implant, indirectly gibbing me due to my experimental teleporter. My other borg, E.R.U., does a decent job at trying to defend my corpse, but in dchat afterwards he reminds me how he would've much preferred to be on the side of the Catlay metagang instead. To top it off, I was accused in dchat by multiple people of murderboning on lowpop (despite my only goal being to sleeper surgery a single felinid).



Very disappointing to see Mannymins giving them such preferential treatment as to note someone for throwing a pie their way.

>Cue the all-out tribal warfare of the full force of the Catlay gang after me. My own subverted borg, Doorbot, stunarms me in the midst of my altercation with them,

Wait what? accidentality or on purpose?

Funny how those names keeping popping up eh?
Yesterday my issue was about killing someone on low pop and getting insults thrown at me in chat by the meta-gang. Yet Marianne Catlay openly boasts about killing her target and nobody blinks an eye.
Literally one rule for the regulars, one rule for the casuals.

And like you say, if you dare try and kill one of them or do anything to one of them, their silent buddy suddenly appears from nowhere to magically save the day.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:01 pm HOLY SHIT IT'S MARIANNE CATLAY AGAIN.

Let me tell you the story of my singular encounter with Marianne Catlay and her catgirl metafriend, Madelyn Finch, on a choice visit to Manuel a few weeks ago in which I rolled traitor.

It was a dark and stormy night. After killing the captain and HoS, I decided to subvert both borgs, "Doorbot" and "E.R.U.," because I didn't want them getting in the way of my traitoring. Eventually I roll the sleeper agent surgery objective, and stumble upon a Chaplain named Madelyn Finch. I try to roleplay a bit and convince her to accept my "experimental surgery," but she's immediately hostile. A minute doesn't go by before her catgirlfriend, none other than Marianne Catlay, walks up between us, and tries to convince me to do it on her instead (real white knight type shit). I think, uhh no, I'm a traitor, I don't make compromises! I'm going to do it on the person I set out to do it on initially!

Cue the all-out tribal warfare of the full force of the Catlay gang after me. My own subverted borg, Doorbot, stunarms me in the midst of my altercation with them, forcing me to activate my EMP implant, indirectly gibbing me due to my experimental teleporter. My other borg, E.R.U., does a decent job at trying to defend my corpse, but in dchat afterwards he reminds me how he would've much preferred to be on the side of the Catlay metagang instead. To top it off, I was accused in dchat by multiple people of murderboning on lowpop (despite my only goal being to sleeper surgery a single felinid).



Very disappointing to see Mannymins giving them such preferential treatment as to note someone for throwing a pie their way.

For the record, I actually don’t like them particularly much, I just find the “today I will play antag on deadpop and gamer as hard as I possibly can” to be an incredibly unfun and boring playstyle, call it an MRP main thing - you had literally every other player in that round (except for the one person who I lied to on your behalf) pissed off with you over how hard you were gaming - it wasn’t a metagang thing. (Or at least, my disgust wasn’t)

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:18 pm For the record, I actually don’t like them particularly much, I just find the “today I will play antag on deadpop and gamer as hard as I possibly can” to be an incredibly unfun and boring playstyle, call it an MRP main thing - you had literally every other player in that round (except for the one person who I lied to on your behalf) pissed off with you over how hard you were gaming - it wasn’t a metagang thing. (Or at least, my disgust wasn’t)

My brother in christ I killed a grand total of two people outside of objectives - the cap and the HoS - the former of whom I had delivered to medbay after so they could be revived. Maybe you could elaborate on what exactly fueled your "disgust."

The players were pissed off at me because I dared to create conflict on a lowpop Manuel round as The Traitor instead of playing nice with the catgirl twins and having a nice happy consensual sleeper surgery for a free objective. I would consider the latter option the truly unfun and boring playstyle to have.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:30 pm

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:18 pm For the record, I actually don’t like them particularly much, I just find the “today I will play antag on deadpop and gamer as hard as I possibly can” to be an incredibly unfun and boring playstyle, call it an MRP main thing - you had literally every other player in that round (except for the one person who I lied to on your behalf) pissed off with you over how hard you were gaming - it wasn’t a metagang thing. (Or at least, my disgust wasn’t)

My brother in christ I killed a grand total of two people outside of objectives - the cap and the HoS - the former of whom I had delivered to medbay after so they could be revived. Maybe you could elaborate on what exactly fueled your "disgust."

The players, you included, were pissed off at me because I dared to create conflict on a lowpop Manuel round as The Traitor instead of playing nice with the catgirl twins and having a nice happy consensual sleeper surgery for a free objective. I would consider the latter option the truly unfun and boring playstyle to have.

I don’t actually care that much about your conflict with the medbay guys, I care/d that you had what (looked like to my eyes) a hand tele, the reactive tele armour, armoury gear, a fully optimised traitor loadout and some other crap on you ~20 minutes into the round with ~9 (the round only has 13 players registered on scrubby, and I know a few people latejoined ) people on the station, and were running around speedrunning your objective list dunking anyone who opposed you. There’s creating conflict and then there’s stacking the deck so far into your favour that if - again, literally everyone active on station (except me, and maybe the other borg I never found out if they were rulebreaking or just a dumbass, kept away from the situation since it involved me somewhat) hadn’t grouped up to oppose you none of them had any chance of accomplishing anything. I refuse to accuse you of murderboning(the combats I saw were all justified), but geeze dude, do you really gotta try that hard to win against nine people?

Edit: For the record, I have no issue with killing people, killing people (often) makes for interesting situations - conflict is just a two sided beast, reaction is as necessary as inciting action. It’s hardly interesting nor sporting when you do everything possible to minimise the amount of “conflict” you produce and maximise the amount of personal success you acquire, when there is barely anyone around to effectively fight back.

Manuel, where once again being to good at being a traitor is the worst possible sin.

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:42 pm I don’t actually care that much about your conflict with the medbay guys, I care/d that you had what (looked like to my eyes) a hand tele, the reactive tele armour, armoury gear, a fully optimised traitor loadout and some other crap on you ~20 minutes into the round with ~9 (the round only has 13 players registered on scrubby, and I know a few people latejoined ) people on the station, and were running around speedrunning your objective list dunking anyone who opposed you. There’s creating conflict and then there’s stacking the deck so far into your favour that if - again, literally everyone active on station (except me, and maybe the other borg I never found out if they were rulebreaking or just a dumbass, kept away from the situation since it involved me somewhat) hadn’t grouped up to oppose you none of them had any chance of accomplishing anything. I refuse to accuse you of murderboning(the combats I saw were all justified), but geeze dude, do you really gotta try that hard to win against nine people?

everything I had was either for a bug objective or looted from the cap. no one "grouped up" against me until I decided to try to sleeper surgery some random felinid against her will. if you didn't care about my conflict with them it's weird you'd have mentioned how you wished you were on their side. they were also traitors by the way with carp+northstar and the other a 357 (sounds pretty optimal to me!)

it just left a sour taste in my mouth is all. I don't think it's anything rulebreaking (aside from well, my subverted borg stunarming me)

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:18 pm
For the record, I actually don’t like them particularly much, I just find the “today I will play antag on deadpop and gamer as hard as I possibly can” to be an incredibly unfun and boring playstyle.

Personally speaking I find low-med pop is the best way to practice playing antagonist stategies without getting immediately slaughtered by high pop witnesses. Not everyone has the ability or time to play on high pop servers, perhaps due to their own preferences/work commitments and not everyone is robust enough to handle high pop valid-hunters. Why should a smaller amount of players dictate the behaviour of people who want to play differently yet fully within the rules.

I just don't see why people should be discouraged from playing on Manuel by the reactions of a tiny few idiots who want to make the server their own cosy-safe-space. Judging by some of the replies in this thread and the other thread it seems there's plenty of people who share this view.

If people are so offended at dying on low-pop, why not just turn off events and antagonists completely so that way nobody gets harmed at all? Perhaps rename it to SAFE STATION 13.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:04 pm

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:42 pm I don’t actually care that much about your conflict with the medbay guys, I care/d that you had what (looked like to my eyes) a hand tele, the reactive tele armour, armoury gear, a fully optimised traitor loadout and some other crap on you ~20 minutes into the round with ~9 (the round only has 13 players registered on scrubby, and I know a few people latejoined ) people on the station, and were running around speedrunning your objective list dunking anyone who opposed you. There’s creating conflict and then there’s stacking the deck so far into your favour that if - again, literally everyone active on station (except me, and maybe the other borg I never found out if they were rulebreaking or just a dumbass, kept away from the situation since it involved me somewhat) hadn’t grouped up to oppose you none of them had any chance of accomplishing anything. I refuse to accuse you of murderboning(the combats I saw were all justified), but geeze dude, do you really gotta try that hard to win against nine people?

everything I had was either for a bug objective or looted from the cap. no one "grouped up" against me until I decided to try to sleeper surgery some random felinid against her will. if you didn't care about my conflict with them it's weird you'd have mentioned how you wished you were on their side. they were also traitors by the way with carp+northstar and the other a 357 (sounds pretty optimal to me!)

it just left a sour taste in my mouth is all. I don't think it's anything rulebreaking (aside from well, my subverted borg stunarming me)

I wished I was on the side of literally everyone else on station (with the medbay traitors being the easiest way for that to happen, I actually thought the other borg was subverted to them). But yes, I can see why that’d be annoying. From my perspective you only died because the other borg was either a complete dumbass or rule-breaking themselves - you were pretty consistently trading up in fights with the combined group of angry traitors + HoP from what I saw - and rolling without resistance everyone else (with my minimal contributions, I was trying my best to play out the subversion in good faith, but jannieborgs are pretty shit at combat(or I’m just skill issued that is also highly possible)).

I'm starting to get a bit worried now reading it here that noone other than one of the present Headmins is actually somewhat on board with the current selective-conflict-averse mentality of Manuel, it's just disheartening.

I wish Manuel was anywhere near what Morto wished it to be initially, it deviated so much from that original dream

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:27 pm I wish Manuel was anywhere near what Morto wished it to be initially, it deviated so much from that original dream

Can you elaborate for someone not in the know? What was the original intention?

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:27 pm I wished I was on the side of literally everyone else on station (with the medbay traitors being the easiest way for that to happen, I actually thought the other borg was subverted to them). But yes, I can see why that’d be annoying. From my perspective you only died because the other borg was either a complete dumbass or rule-breaking themselves - you were pretty consistently trading up in fights with the combined group of angry traitors + HoP from what I saw - and rolling without resistance everyone else (with my minimal contributions, I was trying my best to play out the subversion in good faith, but jannieborgs are pretty shit at combat(or I’m just skill issued that is also highly possible)).

You were indeed my best ally that entire round. That's why the dchat text was disappointing to see. We were supposed to be besties but your heart was with the kitties..

I had literally killed the cap, HoS, stolen multiple grand theft items for bug objectives, stolen some lizard's eyes before decapitating him (the syndicate must've had it out for that guy), and yet no one batted an eye until I tried to brainwash Marianne Catlay's metafriend. you can't make this stuff up man

kayozz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:30 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:27 pm I wish Manuel was anywhere near what Morto wished it to be initially, it deviated so much from that original dream

Can you elaborate for someone not in the know? What was the original intention?

For it to actually be a welcoming place for everyone, with a higher cultural standard of roleplay that didn't depend so much on tigher rules but community consensus and good will. That's what I also thought it would eventually head towards in it's infancy. Look where it is now.

But yeah maybe it was too idealistical to become such a thing. A velleity.

Tearling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:03 pm The main hard part with making a metagang chart is just how easy it would be for someone random to come in and delete everything. If I was to make an up-to-date one it would require some kind of verification system, but that'd make it hard to complete the chart.

Clearly the solution is to use the wiki; have a metagang wiki page. We could even have one for each server.
Create an archive of metagangs past and present, for future generations to look back on.

kayozz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:25 pm Since you're staff, can you explain how and why this playstyle is enforced or discouraged and also explain why a select group of people are seemingly protected from anything that disturbs their lesbian-cat roleplay session?

Personally speaking I find low-med pop is the best way to practice playing antagonist stategies without getting immediately slaughtered by high pop witnesses. Not everyone has the ability or time to play on high pop servers, perhaps due to their own preferences/work commitments and not everyone is robust enough to handle high pop valid-hunters. Why should a smaller amount of players dictate the behaviour of people who want to play differently yet fully within the rules.

I just don't see why people should be discouraged from playing on Manuel by the reactions of a tiny few idiots who want to make the server their own cosy-safe-space. Judging by some of the replies in this thread and the other thread it seems there's plenty of people who share this view.

If people are so offended at dying on low-pop, why not just turn off events and antagonists completely so that way nobody gets harmed at all? Perhaps rename it to SAFE STATION 13.

1. Playing antags to win (or not doing so) isn’t enforced against on a rules level at all, rule 12 is currently explicitly overriden by rule 4, I just find the general playstyle of maximise Ws at all costs very boring when it comes at the expense of room for interaction and conflict, killing people is cool, forcing everyone else into the role of NPC to be lorded over is uh, kinda lame

2. This question is highly loaded, on multiple levels. Suffice to say I don’t think we are or should be doing that, but “seemingly protected” leaves a lot of room for differences in what that actually means.

3. I find 20-30 players (what I would consider low-med pop) the best time to play ss13 in general, plenty of room to cause and participate in conflicts and player-player interactions, traitoring in that pop bracket is best. If you mean in the deadpop range (which I’d generally consider 10 active players or less, generally corresponding to 15 or so people on the server) the game just breaks down in general, mechanics just aren’t designed for that few players, and frankly it is very hard to be a good or interesting antagonist (prog tot makes it harder than it used to be even)

3.5. The back half of this question is also highly loaded, and seemingly a projection from the other thread about people being arseholes because they hate losing? (Rule 10 is a thing for a reason and the pathological inability to take Ls applies to both extremes of this conversation )

4. I agree

5. I don’t really care if people die during lowpop as long as rounds do actually progress so that they can get back in at some point, deadpop murderboning (the classic kill-everyone definition, not Manuel’s invalid kill definition) is an arsehole move and rightfully prohibited, but if you have reason to kill someone go right ahead? Just try to bring the round to a close if you’re taking it over so people can get back into the video game.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:34 pm

spookuni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:27 pm I wished I was on the side of literally everyone else on station (with the medbay traitors being the easiest way for that to happen, I actually thought the other borg was subverted to them). But yes, I can see why that’d be annoying. From my perspective you only died because the other borg was either a complete dumbass or rule-breaking themselves - you were pretty consistently trading up in fights with the combined group of angry traitors + HoP from what I saw - and rolling without resistance everyone else (with my minimal contributions, I was trying my best to play out the subversion in good faith, but jannieborgs are pretty shit at combat(or I’m just skill issued that is also highly possible)).

You were indeed my best ally that entire round. That's why the dchat text was disappointing to see. We were supposed to be besties but your heart was with the kitties..

I had literally killed the cap, HoS, stolen multiple grand theft items for bug objectives, stolen some lizard's eyes before decapitating him (the syndicate must've had it out for that guy), and yet no one batted an eye until I tried to brainwash Marianne Catlay's metafriend. you can't make this stuff up man

Nah, people were organising after you killed the poor science lizard, moving into medical just boiled it over (I was sat spying on them listening for actionable intel in between being given orders, there was “wow we should probably do something” building for a while.
(speaking of real metagang bullshit though, that lizard was never revived because the med players never bothered, which did piss me off)

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:39 pm

kayozz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:30 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:27 pm I wish Manuel was anywhere near what Morto wished it to be initially, it deviated so much from that original dream

Can you elaborate for someone not in the know? What was the original intention?

For it to actually be a welcoming place for everyone, with a higher cultural standard of roleplay that didn't depend so much on tigher rules but community consensus and good will. That's what I also thought it would eventually head towards in it's infancy. Look where it is now.

But yeah maybe it was too idealistical to become such a thing. A velleity.

I'm not really going to jump into the specifics but yeah, early Manuel was certainly different than what we see now.

But it also had (mostly) different admins, and (almost) an entirely different playerbase as well.

TG doesn't exactly have a set in stone vision/mission/goal laid out for much, things are bound to change. Not that its a bad thing, the server clearly is attractive to some people, its not like its dead.

I will say that early Manuel was very much my favorite history for it though.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:10 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:39 pm

kayozz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:30 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:27 pm I wish Manuel was anywhere near what Morto wished it to be initially, it deviated so much from that original dream

Can you elaborate for someone not in the know? What was the original intention?

For it to actually be a welcoming place for everyone, with a higher cultural standard of roleplay that didn't depend so much on tigher rules but community consensus and good will. That's what I also thought it would eventually head towards in it's infancy. Look where it is now.

But yeah maybe it was too idealistical to become such a thing. A velleity.

I'm not really going to jump into the specifics but yeah, early Manuel was certainly different than what we see now.

But it also had (mostly) different admins, and (almost) an entirely different playerbase as well.

TG doesn't exactly have a set in stone vision/mission/goal laid out for much, things are bound to change. Not that its a bad thing, the server clearly is attractive to some people, its not like its dead.

I will say that early Manuel was very much my favorite history for it though.

Yeah this was pretty much the only time I was a regular there, and I would defend it because it was just taking off and it was a good promise for something exciting and different.

Then it never did. Or more like, it took off but never went higher than a few building stories. Eventually the rounds became dull, as antags and non-antags alike became too frightened of doing anything for fear of bwoinks, and put simply: it got unbearably BORING for me.

Everyone was being passively bullied into staying in their lane, and playing job simulator, or doing their objectives in the stealthiest way possible. My skin was contorting itself to go back to a modicum of the chaos, action and player agency I knew the game for when I started playing it.

During all of this, the roleplay? It was okay I guess? people talked some more, sometimes, I guess? They were more polite when coming to request something from me (I usually only played as HoP back then), if they ever did.

But the interesting kind of roleplay that would build up organically and spontaneously to generate truly fascinating scenarios, those most of us crave for in a game like SS13? It just wasn't there, because of this lack of conflict, because of these tighter rules psychologically holding everyone back on a leash. Yeah it definitely didn't pan out to be as what I expected, so I permanently moved to Sybil.

Fast forward to now and look what we have. A player metagrudging another player, using an admin as a proxy (I have to spit this out because really, it's what it is). Being unable to let go of a minor altercation from a previous round, and jumping to ahelp when the smallest of inconveniences presented itself with said player in another one, just because they dislike them, painting themselves as a victim of metagrudging, and twisting it around. Making the admin put the equivalent of a restrainining order on a player that didn't show a sign at all of having a grudge, and even went as far as apologizing IC, which he wasn't even required to do.

I can't emphasize more the level of insanity it represents to be encouraging this general behavior, empowering these kind of bad faith players, especially as an admin, and what it would mean if it were to get normalized. I hope everyone can see it as clearly.

DARVO

Amazing stuff that this keeps getting worse at ever reveal of new info.

So if an admin is in your metagang you can get away with whatever you want, and have undesirables get noted for innocuous actions? sweet gig

Agux909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:31 pm Yeah this was pretty much the only time I was a regular there, and I would defend it because it was just taking off and it was a good promise for something exciting and different.

Then it never did. Or more like, it took off but never went higher than a few building stories. Eventually the rounds became dull, as antags and non-antags alike became too frightened of doing anything for fear of bwoinks, and put simply: it got unbearably BORING for me.

Everyone was being passively bullied into staying in their lane, and playing job simulator, or doing their objectives in the stealthiest way possible. My skin was contorting itself to go back to a modicum of the chaos, action and player agency I knew the game for when I started playing it.

During all of this, the roleplay? It was okay I guess? people talked some more, sometimes, I guess? They were more polite when coming to request something from me (I usually only played as HoP back then), if they ever did.

But the interesting kind of roleplay that would build up organically and spontaneously to generate truly fascinating scenarios, those most of us crave for in a game like SS13? It just wasn't there, because of this lack of conflict, because of these tighter rules psychologically holding everyone back on a leash. Yeah it definitely didn't pan out to be as what I expected, so I permanently moved to Sybil.

My experience mirrors this, regrettably.

So... Despite it not meeting everyone's expectations and a few incidents with metagangs, it's not actually a bad server. What I'm asking is how would you fix this stuff? I imagine it's not easy for admins to moderate the clique stuff as it's only toeing the line slightly and most people seem to enjoy it on there.
So, how would you guys implement a fix to such issues?

When you have friends to avoid conflict; to seek shelter from the confusion, betrayal and deceit; to be genuinely safe from the metagame of SS13? Then you're playing something else entirely. I will torment you and make your time on our servers miserable while you're attached at the hip for no good IC reason.

Having friends in SS13 is good. They give you tons of cool ways to kill, betray and otherwise torment other players that would otherwise totally trust you for no good IC reason other than they know you. The best shifts are ones where your friends betray you.

If you don't betray and torment your friends? Then go on Github, download the game files and run yourself a private server where you can engage in a wonderful single player experience with coop support, since you'll probably enjoy it more.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:07 pm
Having friends in SS13 is good. They give you tons of cool ways to kill, betray and otherwise torment other players that would otherwise totally trust you for no good IC reason other than they know you. The best shifts are ones where your friends betray you.

I still remember the time i was a traitor (Old Tot) and had a friend mining with me on icebox.
He was my Target, and my other objective was research data.
I prepared alot to actually betray them during our mining trip, like an entire surgery pod with tools and a borg body.
Shot them later with a 357 but they actually survived while i ran out of ammo, and even though they later bled out on the escapepod i failed my objective to steal the disk, because i forgot it in the mining station

Was one of my most fun rounds
I always tell my friends to not hold back on me for that reason alone, it makes interesting stuff happen

I really don't feel like we should be catering to metagangs of any kind, if I wanted to deal with highschool bullshit I'd go back into teaching

i want to start a metagang of a bunch of guys with italian names and the last name Legitimate and we just get up to Legitimate Business in suits all day

Ryusenshu wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:06 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:07 pm
Having friends in SS13 is good. They give you tons of cool ways to kill, betray and otherwise torment other players that would otherwise totally trust you for no good IC reason other than they know you. The best shifts are ones where your friends betray you.

I still remember the time i was a traitor (Old Tot) and had a friend mining with me on icebox.
He was my Target, and my other objective was research data.
I prepared alot to actually betray them during our mining trip, like an entire surgery pod with tools and a borg body.
Shot them later with a 357 but they actually survived while i ran out of ammo, and even though they later bled out on the escapepod i failed my objective to steal the disk, because i forgot it in the mining station

Was one of my most fun rounds
I always tell my friends to not hold back on me for that reason alone, it makes interesting stuff happen

Ha, you are missing the best part of that story. I ate 12 out of 14 bullets you lodged into me. We both calm and collected walked to the pod, sat down. You balled your eyes out and handed me a bag of your plan to borg me. I laughed replied, something about good thing I had nanites for icebox mining and in the middle of me laughing. The 0% blood got me and died on the seat. You weren't aware and continued talking alone for about a minute or so. Easily, one of my favorite memories to recall.

There have been autistic weirdos on manuel who have had meltdowns to the point of demanding the cats show tits to admins to prove they are women.

This situation has gotten very retarded as a whole.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:50 pm Manuel, where once again being to good at being a traitor is the worst possible sin.

I think you have the wrong attitude for it.

A Good Traitor isn't the one who can depopulate the station the fastest. A Good Traitor is the one that can make an interesting, and exciting round that everyone will remember. Maybe LRP is different, but the goal on MRP (and I'd argue with the existence of Rule 12, it DOES still apply to LRP, too) isn't for the game to be some hyper-competitive Win/Lose. On MRP, it's even written into the rules that the primary goal of an antag is to create the conflict and interest for the round. You could argue that a "good" traitor, by your ruling, is one who can get all of their objectives done and get off the station without anyone even knowing they exist. Not "Nobody figured out who stole the black box" but that nobody even realized the black box was stolen at all.

I'd consider that a shit traitor, personally, because they didn't impact the round at all. They didn't make it interesting. They didn't make it memorable. I'm probably going to completely forget about that round 3 hours later, unless the other antags were doing something.

That's what Spookuni's getting at. Axle is good enough at the game to be able to get away with doing the stuff that isn't going to be Super Optimal, but makes the round a lot more interesting.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:34 pm You were indeed my best ally that entire round. That's why the dchat text was disappointing to see. We were supposed to be besties but your heart was with the kitties..

I had literally killed the cap, HoS, stolen multiple grand theft items for bug objectives, stolen some lizard's eyes before decapitating him (the syndicate must've had it out for that guy), and yet no one batted an eye until I tried to brainwash Marianne Catlay's metafriend. you can't make this stuff up man

People can dislike what you did for different reasons than being a part of a metagang you were opposing.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:43 pm Maybe LRP is different, but the goal on MRP (and I'd argue with the existence of Rule 12, it DOES still apply to LRP, too)

rule 12 does not apply to antags on lrp you can do as much anti fun shit as you want

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:51 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:43 pm Maybe LRP is different, but the goal on MRP (and I'd argue with the existence of Rule 12, it DOES still apply to LRP, too)

rule 12 does not apply to antags on lrp you can do as much anti fun shit as you want

Amen. o7

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:51 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:43 pm Maybe LRP is different, but the goal on MRP (and I'd argue with the existence of Rule 12, it DOES still apply to LRP, too)

rule 12 does not apply to antags on lrp you can do as much anti fun shit as you want

Fair enough. I'd still argue that while you're allowed to be a boring Station Depopulation Any% runner, you should still try and make the round more interesting for your presence in it, though. But idk the culture and whether or not you're likely to just get Instant RR'd for having contraband.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:12 am

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:51 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:43 pm Maybe LRP is different, but the goal on MRP (and I'd argue with the existence of Rule 12, it DOES still apply to LRP, too)

rule 12 does not apply to antags on lrp you can do as much anti fun shit as you want

Fair enough. I'd still argue that while you're allowed to be a boring Station Depopulation Any% runner, you should still try and make the round more interesting for your presence in it, though. But idk the culture and whether or not you're likely to just get Instant RR'd for having contraband.

it really depends on the sec player but I definitely think there has been a recent movement away from executing people just for having contraband
most of the sec mains that do this kind of thing dont tend to last long without a secban or permaban

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:24 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:12 am

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:51 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:43 pm Maybe LRP is different, but the goal on MRP (and I'd argue with the existence of Rule 12, it DOES still apply to LRP, too)

rule 12 does not apply to antags on lrp you can do as much anti fun shit as you want

Fair enough. I'd still argue that while you're allowed to be a boring Station Depopulation Any% runner, you should still try and make the round more interesting for your presence in it, though. But idk the culture and whether or not you're likely to just get Instant RR'd for having contraband.

it really depends on the sec player but I definitely think there has been a recent movement away from executing people just for having contraband
most of the sec mains that do this kind of thing dont tend to last long without a secban or permaban

That's good, then. I've always been kinda interested in seeing what things are like on the LRP side, but I've always been worried by the uhh. Somewhat Win-focused approach I hear about a lot.