/tg/Station 13

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Hello fellow redditors, I'm out of the loop on a certain matter and I require your help. I wanna know what's the deal with PR #75785. Why is it so controversial? Why do you hate (or love) it? And why does the author feel they have been gaslit by their detractors? Only big chungus 100 wholesome keanu reeves answers please.

Look at the posts above you. We're going into the MODERN ERA with a megaproject involving tons of coders and spriters working together. It's going to be yuger than yuge. It's going to make us look like we're a 30 dollar game on steam god dammit

Jesus this clusterfuck is all anyone is talking about (not the sprites the topic).

The sprites are fine, yeah 'The wallening' is making a lot of people mad, but Orange has already said it's happening and he's not gonna stop it. The spriter isn't to blame, they are just working on something that's going to happen no matter what.

Should they be open to feedback? Only if it's constructive.

Anyway just wanted to say something before MSO locks this like he did with sprite-club.

Just wanted to say to anyone who is feeling gaslit, you are not crazy: these sprites are not really that good

(The trick to knowing if you dislike something just because it's new vs because it's bad, is to imagine if you already had that thing for years, and then it got changed to the thing it actually was for years- then you can see if you just liked it because it was familiar, or because it's actually better)

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:35 pm Ok one more beautiful little wallening post

The bounce at the end looks more like it's lagging but otherwise this looks very cool

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:33 pm

Unsane wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:22 pm I wish everything else have the same vibe and style with how the new crates styled

well thats the fuckin idea! Ignore the visual bug with the black void on this picture and you get an idea of where we're going


HONESTLY this is only happening because the crates came first. If the crate resprite was pr'd to the wallening branch (WHICH EXISTS) there wouldn't be an issue.

It's going to be very cool (and don't worry, you'll be able to see below the walls if you need to).

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:02 am to some extent it's a repeating cycle, we train devs to be aggressive as a defense mechanism, players respond, and it magnifies.
end up self selecting for people who can ignore how others feel, and obviously those people are gonna be kinda crummy at explaining changes/handling criticism, especially to the people screaming at them.

Training people to be aggressive when they respond to criticism is, bar NONE, the worst thing you can do when it comes to taking criticism to begin with, because people will take any, and I mean ANY, aggressive response to criticism as an attack on them and respond accordingly, escalating the aggressiveness until it just becomes a shouting match.
It doesn't matter if the other party is a coder or admin or even a player, the moment you start insulting people or be snarky, you're going to lose any sense of control over how people are going to respond.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:42 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:05 pm And I recognize that code and sprite changes are a little different. Classic thing to bring up is sleeper and cloning removals, things players were comfortable with going away but in the end lended to a better experience. In this case, improper considerations were given to the MULE, the creator inflated the issue dramatically, and it's far more taste-based than anything involving design philosophy. New and old crates will work on wallening. WALLENING IS NOT LIVE. I would almost go to the step of revert, but I think things can be improved with changes to the style to make everyone happier with something

oh my god, thank you for explaining how i felt

also what is the wallening

is it anything like the rumbling because it sounds equally terrifying

The Wallening is where the codebase is switching from full top-down perspective to 3/5ths. Look at some of Goon's sprites for an example. The benefit is that it allows for more detail and depth and just generally looks better.

The problem is that the maintainers want most of the sprites in the game to already be the correct perspective before moving over to the new walls, so things are going to look a little fucky for a while.

That doesn't justify how /tg/ players tend to go kneejerk on IT'S DIFFERENT SO IT'S BAD with things.

Wallening looks like shit

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:35 pm Ok one more beautiful little wallening post

Oooh I want this so badly

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:01 pm That doesn't justify how /tg/ players tend to go kneejerk on IT'S DIFFERENT SO IT'S BAD with things.

The moment you dismiss opinions by attacking their motivations or intentions like this you create the toxicity.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:31 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:01 pm That doesn't justify how /tg/ players tend to go kneejerk on IT'S DIFFERENT SO IT'S BAD with things.

The moment you dismiss opinions by attacking their motivations or intentions like this you create the toxicity.

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm attacking their motivations or intentions - I don't think anyone on /tg/ is acting in bad faith when they say they don't like something. I do think a lot of players will automatically side towards disliking change for the sheer sake of it being different. I've seen people say that they don't like it but can't actually come up with a reason as to why, so the only thing I can really imagine is that they don't like it because it's different than what they're used to.

I also don't think we should dismiss their opinions, but there's a point where the scale and aggressiveness of it gets out of hand, which is what happened here.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:39 pm

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:31 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:01 pm That doesn't justify how /tg/ players tend to go kneejerk on IT'S DIFFERENT SO IT'S BAD with things.

The moment you dismiss opinions by attacking their motivations or intentions like this you create the toxicity.

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm attacking their motivations or intentions - I don't think anyone on /tg/ is acting in bad faith when they say they don't like something. I do think a lot of players will automatically side towards disliking change for the sheer sake of it being different. I've seen people say that they don't like it but can't actually come up with a reason as to why, so the only thing I can really imagine is that they don't like it because it's different than what they're used to.

I also don't think we should dismiss their opinions, but there's a point where the scale and aggressiveness of it gets out of hand, which is what happened here.

If people were only holding their opinion to be contrarian then the people sucking the dick of the shitty flatcrate sprites would in fact be the bad faith Billies

Going to be honest, these crates kinda just don’t fit in. I don’t like ‘em.

The big black outlines make it look unnatural. It just doesn’t fit in seemingly. I would prefer if they would work off of the old sprites instead of making something brand new; no offense to the author.

dragomagol wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:32 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:33 pm

Unsane wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:22 pm I wish everything else have the same vibe and style with how the new crates styled

well thats the fuckin idea! Ignore the visual bug with the black void on this picture and you get an idea of where we're going


HONESTLY this is only happening because the crates came first. If the crate resprite was pr'd to the wallening branch (WHICH EXISTS) there wouldn't be an issue.

It's going to be very cool (and don't worry, you'll be able to see below the walls if you need to).

always been curious, how is this gonna work if you can’t see 50%+ of the tile on the bottom right due to the 3D wall? what’s a character look like standing there?

and that chair at the bottom is like completely obscured. i dislike the idea that we have to tradeoff massive visibility for a faux-3D sprite that looks more modern :/

I don't know how I feel about this "it's gonna look like an actual game" vibe here. Like clearly this has been a huge undertaking from dozens of people so we can't just say get fucked. At the same time I'd dare say there is something soulful about the janky thrown together with tape look that people associate with ss13.

I promise you there will be no end to the servers that will still offer old walls though I will remind you that every server that just tries to be "tgstation back in the year [when i started playing]" dies incredibly hard.
The big benefit I see is that it's going to immerse people deeper into a roleplaying mood. For example, Flavor traitors does nothing but suggest some ways you could play the round, and I think that helps people break out of the mold of their antag comfort zones. and hey, if you like the rules imposed, maybe you like following the corporation you're hired by. Cool!

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:19 pm always been curious, how is this gonna work if you can’t see 50%+ of the tile on the bottom right due to the 3D wall? what’s a character look like standing there?

and that chair at the bottom is like completely obscured. i dislike the idea that we have to tradeoff massive visibility for a faux-3D sprite that looks more modern :/

The reason why this is such a code and sprite collab is because the tops of the walls are fade away when you need to see them. Don't worry, you won't miss anything.

Armhulen come on, we are kin here. Don't you recall those halcyon days of medical getting flooded with freon every round? The money trees and unlimited null crates.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

Boot wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:52 pm Armhulen come on, we are kin here. Don't you recall those halcyon days of medical getting flooded with freon every round? The money trees and unlimited null crates.

I unironically miss freon, I miss null crates when they weren't done every round. Like, nobody ever had issues with them for years but as time went on people realized they really could just hand an emag to the QM at any time and start an infinite flood of traitor gear. Honestly? Null crates could come back if the unlock condition was harder than "use an emag" and we all know it. There needs to be some kind of thing that prevents it from being something done constantly like the last few months before removal.
Same with gangs. Gangs on release? fun. Gangs when everyone learns there is no downside to just building the dominator behind 5 reinforced walls and bolted doors? Painful. So painful. Preventing people from settling into "every round" gimmicks is key for enjoyment and longevity of features.

God I miss freon. Removed because it was laggy and crashy too, not because people hated it. I loved turning the station into a winter wonderland, it felt like a real unique deadly environment condition.

What really grinds my gears about this entire discussion is that people can't say they don't like things without immediately being thrown into the "you only dislike it because it's different".

That generates the precedent that player opinion doesn't matter. And as much as oranges likes to preach it, that's a fucking stupid take. "Player opinion doesn't matter" is exactly how you push players that interact with the community away. Much the same way that you push contributors by attacking them.

There were plenty of direct, objective criticisms on the PR. There was a side by side comparison with points to be discussed. Author just decided to engage cunt drive and dismiss it like it was unimportant while belittling the person that pointed those out.

The crates look like shit. That doesn't mean that everything that's different is bad. The wallening is different, and it's looking fucking sick. I personally love the new lavaland mob sprites. Discussing things like this without taking them personally and having your feweings hurt (or at least hurt enough that you feel you need to lash out like a child) is how you improve.

I do wish someone respites the crates to handle the feedback: ignoring the feedback will possibly lead to possible backlash down the line.

Perhaps maybe I can learn how to sprite?

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:32 pm I do wish someone respites the crates to handle the feedback: ignoring the feedback will possibly lead to possible backlash down the line.

Perhaps maybe I can learn how to sprite?

nobody is touching them because of the drama around them. maybe in a months time

they are unlikely to get much more than minor fixes now

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:58 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

this, the first thing i thought was whoa, this looks like dwarf fortress, and its fucking awesome

very excited to see the pr merged

also hey anyone remember swarmers

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:58 pm also hey anyone remember swarmers

yes

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:39 pmI've seen people say that they don't like it but can't actually come up with a reason as to why, so the only thing I can really imagine is that they don't like it because it's different than what they're used to.

I've seen the answer to this in game development talks. Players are phenomenally good at telling developers when something feels wrong, and this feeling is usually correct. Players are very bad at articulating why this is the case and will often blame things unrelated to the real cause. While you cannot trust a player to tell you why something isnt working, you can definitely trust them to tell you when something isnt working.

kinnebian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:36 pm

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:32 pm I do wish someone respites the crates to handle the feedback: ignoring the feedback will possibly lead to possible backlash down the line.

Perhaps maybe I can learn how to sprite?

nobody is touching them because of the drama around them. maybe in a months time

I did a minor change to one of the crates (the cross on top of the medical crate), you can probably get away with minor stuff but nothing too big.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:58 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

i dont play dwarf fortress

i was just reminded of flightsuits
MAN. that was a long ass time ago

There wouldn't be drama around them if they were better.

As one of the only contrarians to downvote the cratening and one of the few to upvote the wowie crates, i think the new crates are based. The cratening made crates look worse, now with wowie crates they are much better. The angle looks much better and they actually look big enough to fit stuff now. The details of the crates are much better, the handle and lock looks amazing compared to the old handle that wasn't even sprited correctly? the handle just stayed down? And it just looked bad in general being a pixelated curve. Now the handle goes up with the crate and is super cool and even has the lock attached to it. My only complaint is the black lines on the edges dont look good with some crates. And the color choice of black for the electrical crate is odd. The freezer looks super cool though I dont know why people disliked that one in particular the freezer looked pretty bad before.

i swear to god some of those crates are off center and its bugging the shit out of me

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:47 pm As one of the only contrarians to downvote the cratening and one of the few to upvote the wowie crates, i think the new crates are based. The cratening made crates look worse, now with wowie crates they are much better. The angle looks much better and they actually look big enough to fit stuff now. The details of the crates are much better, the handle and lock looks amazing compared to the old handle that wasn't even sprited correctly? the handle just stayed down? And it just looked bad in general being a pixelated curve. Now the handle goes up with the crate and is super cool and even has the lock attached to it. My only complaint is the black lines on the edges dont look good with some crates. And the color choice of black for the electrical crate is odd. The freezer looks super cool though I dont know why people disliked that one in particular the freezer looked pretty bad before.

I genuinely cannot tell if this is ironic, a shitpost, or actually serious.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:36 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:58 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

i dont play dwarf fortress

you should, everyone should

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:36 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:58 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

i dont play dwarf fortress

L

conrad wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:03 pm push players that interact with the community away.

if only they would actually go, instead of just hanging around complaining about how bad things are now.

if they actually put their money where their mouth was and left people might actually believe them for once.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:02 pm God I miss freon. Removed because it was laggy and crashy too, not because people hated it. I loved turning the station into a winter wonderland, it felt like a real unique deadly environment condition.

I made freon like yesterday what

I love crates, crates and crate acessories

now wheres our forklift for the crates

InfiniteGalaxies wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:03 am I love crates, crates and crate acessories

now wheres our forklift for the crates

coming soon, along with a forklift license

InfiniteGalaxies wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:03 am I love crates, crates and crate acessories

now wheres our forklift for the crates

thats what the power loader is for

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:22 am

InfiniteGalaxies wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:03 am I love crates, crates and crate acessories

now wheres our forklift for the crates

thats what the power loader is for

forklift is cooler cause space osha violations

InfiniteGalaxies wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:22 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:22 am

InfiniteGalaxies wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:03 am I love crates, crates and crate acessories

now wheres our forklift for the crates

thats what the power loader is for

forklift is cooler cause space osha violations

i'll violate your osha with my clamps

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:58 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:24 pm Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

dont pretend like you play dwarf fortress

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:11 pm

BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:16 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:06 am /tg/ Community Be Normal About Sprite Changes Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

alternatively "Not Be Cunts To Contributors Challenges".

I honestly don't see much cuntiness toward the author in the PR until near the end. If anything the author started the cuntiness with the line about Russians while responding to someone giving valid feedback.

Someone literally compared the PR author to a Nazi but okay

That was in response to the author calling him a Russian, which these days is almost as bad. Not saying it's right to compare him to a Nazi but keep in mind who started it.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:02 pm

Boot wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:52 pm Armhulen come on, we are kin here. Don't you recall those halcyon days of medical getting flooded with freon every round? The money trees and unlimited null crates.

I unironically miss freon, I miss null crates when they weren't done every round. Like, nobody ever had issues with them for years but as time went on people realized they really could just hand an emag to the QM at any time and start an infinite flood of traitor gear. Honestly? Null crates could come back if the unlock condition was harder than "use an emag" and we all know it. There needs to be some kind of thing that prevents it from being something done constantly like the last few months before removal.
Same with gangs. Gangs on release? fun. Gangs when everyone learns there is no downside to just building the dominator behind 5 reinforced walls and bolted doors? Painful. So painful. Preventing people from settling into "every round" gimmicks is key for enjoyment and longevity of features.

God I miss freon. Removed because it was laggy and crashy too, not because people hated it. I loved turning the station into a winter wonderland, it felt like a real unique deadly environment condition.

Please bring back gangs. Some of my favorite ss13 memories happened during gangs rounds.

lmao the spriter's digg posting is even trashier than his Discord posting and he's being such a fucking prick that now I'm strictly opposed to the sprites just because he's such a doink

Can we have a picture of these crates IN the wallening? So we can see what it looks like?

I thought the crates before this one was made for the wallening?
I need to see!!!

Lets see them in their intended habitat.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:52 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:02 pm God I miss freon. Removed because it was laggy and crashy too, not because people hated it. I loved turning the station into a winter wonderland, it felt like a real unique deadly environment condition.

I made freon like yesterday what

fased and eonpilled i'm talking about the OLD ORIGINAL FREON

BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:25 am

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:02 pm

Boot wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:52 pm Armhulen come on, we are kin here. Don't you recall those halcyon days of medical getting flooded with freon every round? The money trees and unlimited null crates.

I unironically miss freon, I miss null crates when they weren't done every round. Like, nobody ever had issues with them for years but as time went on people realized they really could just hand an emag to the QM at any time and start an infinite flood of traitor gear. Honestly? Null crates could come back if the unlock condition was harder than "use an emag" and we all know it. There needs to be some kind of thing that prevents it from being something done constantly like the last few months before removal.
Same with gangs. Gangs on release? fun. Gangs when everyone learns there is no downside to just building the dominator behind 5 reinforced walls and bolted doors? Painful. So painful. Preventing people from settling into "every round" gimmicks is key for enjoyment and longevity of features.

God I miss freon. Removed because it was laggy and crashy too, not because people hated it. I loved turning the station into a winter wonderland, it felt like a real unique deadly environment condition.

Please bring back gangs. Some of my favorite ss13 memories happened during gangs rounds.

If you figure out how to avoid the ugliest most unfun meta settling around base defense it will be a mode that is never removed again