Bottom post of the previous page:
Acting cap is informed that the QM refused to attempt to sort let alone deliver mail.
I refuse to actively participate in a server named after a community created by a serial wife beater.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:29 pm We are one step closer to becoming Goon. If people, especially admins, put side to side retard and the nword then i can't wait for them to make their (shit) opinions (un)official rulings. Who knows what's next? I don't and i am excited!
"I will fword kill you, you stupid cword! Give me my id back you rword!"
But this wasn't a mutiny. They didn't try to overthrow the captain. They just tossed them out of cargo for being an ass. That's insubordination, not mutiny.
OOC Dr . Oof/(Krisster Fless) "go fuck yourself laura, you are the most annoying mentally defected fuck in this server"
An ongoing grudge between the players does make this more interesting yes.AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:50 pm If I might contribute (which is a rarity, believe me), I believe there is an ongoing feud between both of the players in this situation here. This is not the first time the player in question has called the other player some form of "slow."
I was the captain. There was a lizard in prison. I told you to stop calling it a ligger or I would shoot you, you did not stop so I escalated on you. You were never murdered just shot at a few times. Not rlly the same is it..
the clot thickens...AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:50 pm If I might contribute (which is a rarity, believe me), I believe there is an ongoing feud between both of the players in this situation here. This is not the first time that one of the players in question has called the other player some form of "slow."
Game Logs of a Previous Round
OOC Dr . Oof/(Krisster Fless) "go fuck yourself laura, you are the most annoying mentally defected fuck in this server"
i was right once againkieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:55 pmI was the captain. There was a lizard in prison. I told you to stop calling it a ligger or I would shoot you, you did not stop so I escalated on you. You were never murdered just shot at a few times. Not rlly the same is it..
Calling this a mutiny is a huge LOL because they attacked the QM so the qm fought back.
Because retard and nigger are wildly different kinds of slurs with distinct differences in application. The fact you say "the n-word" sorta highlights HOW different.Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:46 pm The argument here is if the word "retard" is considered a slur or not.
Professional mental health organizations, especially those working closely with special needs individuals, have deemed it a slur.
The second question we have to ask is where TG draws the line, we already agree that the n-word shouldn't be said. Why is the word "retard" different if its already classified as a slur?
This is the point where I have to break character and post about this.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:29 pm We are one step closer to becoming Goon. If people, especially admins, put side to side retard and the nword then i can't wait for them to make their (shit) opinions (un)official rulings. Who knows what's next? I don't and i am excited!
"I will fword kill you, you stupid cword! Give me my id back you rword!"
I am also very confused by people suddenly saying that saying "retard" automatically makes you valid. Of the "admins" that have "allowed it", only ONE was named, and I had them explain what happened in the ban appeal itself.BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:25 am For what it's worth if I was captain (even acting) and a QM told me off for telling them to do their job I'd ABSOLUTELY give them a nonlethal smack and tell them to get their shit together. If they did what they did to me here I'd have probably dome the same shit as well.
Part of your job when roleplaying command is following said chain of command. He probably could've had security do it, but I'd be 50/50 on just doing it myself in a similar fashion.
Who cares about what they say? Our illustrious headmins deemed that it isn't.Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:46 pm Professional mental health organizations, especially those working closely with special needs individuals, have deemed it a slur.
I wasn't murdered because I am a robust Terry player. The principle is the same, the robustness of the victim is what differs.
You were objectively wrong, because you said "the sec officer", i.e. the character, had my OOC account name, which she doesn't.
You robustekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:41 pmWho cares about what they say? Our illustrious headmins deemed that it isn't.Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:46 pm Professional mental health organizations, especially those working closely with special needs individuals, have deemed it a slur.
I wasn't murdered because I am a robust Terry player. The principle is the same, the robustness of the victim is what differs.
You were objectively wrong, because you said "the sec officer", i.e. the character, had my OOC account name, which she doesn't.
You were right in the sense that I was the player on the other end, yes.
Tgstation isn't required to follow the standards of any health organizations. The headmins set the policy.Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:46 pm The argument here is if the word "retard" is considered a slur or not.
Professional mental health organizations, especially those working closely with special needs individuals, have deemed it a slur.
The second question we have to ask is where TG draws the line, we already agree that the n-word shouldn't be said. Why is the word "retard" different if its already classified as a slur?
Why are you surprised that people twist opinions to fit their narrative? When you have admins telling you that "retard" is on par with the nword and that it should be treated under the rule all the same then, surely, you can see where the confusion begins. "An admin said so, so why should i think of it more?". Strangely, this goes both ways, "This site tells me their (non-legal) opinion therefore it's a definition that i will hold true."Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:24 pmThis is the point where I have to break character and post about this.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:29 pm We are one step closer to becoming Goon. If people, especially admins, put side to side retard and the nword then i can't wait for them to make their (shit) opinions (un)official rulings. Who knows what's next? I don't and i am excited!
"I will fword kill you, you stupid cword! Give me my id back you rword!"
I had talked about this in asay and adminbus while dealing with the ban appeal. Admins, both during and after, had different opinions on the use of the word "retard" as a slur.
Absolutely NONE of them said that in any way that what Laura did was justified.
I am very unhappy with the fact that people right now in this thread are saying they're going to do what Laura did if they were in the same situation. I am also very confused by people suddenly saying that saying "retard" automatically makes you valid. Of the "admins" that have "allowed it", only ONE was named, and I had them explain what happened in the ban appeal itself.
As far as I know there is NO ruling on saying "retard" making you instavalid on ANY count.
I disagree. It really is a localised thing that has varying meanings across the world. See above.Retard generally is just used to insult someone for a lapse in judgement in a video game setting. It's not to disparage the differently abled in most contexts. When it is, we should punish it.
I would say no because MSO explicitly used an example like this("What you faggots doing today") as one that would be ok. However due to actions of this headmin term basically just ignoring him to do their own meme instead who knows.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:20 pmIf i say "What engine are we building today faggots?", would i get immediately bwoinked and noted? Depends on the admin i guess?Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:24 pmThis is the point where I have to break character and post about this.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:29 pm We are one step closer to becoming Goon. If people, especially admins, put side to side retard and the nword then i can't wait for them to make their (shit) opinions (un)official rulings. Who knows what's next? I don't and i am excited!
"I will fword kill you, you stupid cword! Give me my id back you rword!"
I had talked about this in asay and adminbus while dealing with the ban appeal. Admins, both during and after, had different opinions on the use of the word "retard" as a slur.
Absolutely NONE of them said that in any way that what Laura did was justified.
I am very unhappy with the fact that people right now in this thread are saying they're going to do what Laura did if they were in the same situation. I am also very confused by people suddenly saying that saying "retard" automatically makes you valid. Of the "admins" that have "allowed it", only ONE was named, and I had them explain what happened in the ban appeal itself.
As far as I know there is NO ruling on saying "retard" making you instavalid on ANY count.
This is exactly why when someone said something to that effect, I said this:LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:20 pmWhy are you surprised that people twist opinions to fit their narrative? When you have admins telling you that "retard" is on par with the nword and that it should be treated under the rule all the same then, surely, you can see where the confusion begins. "An admin said so, so why should i think of it more?". Strangely, this goes both ways, "This site tells me their (non-legal) opinion therefore it's a definition that i will hold true."Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:24 pmThis is the point where I have to break character and post about this.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:29 pm We are one step closer to becoming Goon. If people, especially admins, put side to side retard and the nword then i can't wait for them to make their (shit) opinions (un)official rulings. Who knows what's next? I don't and i am excited!
"I will fword kill you, you stupid cword! Give me my id back you rword!"
I had talked about this in asay and adminbus while dealing with the ban appeal. Admins, both during and after, had different opinions on the use of the word "retard" as a slur.
Absolutely NONE of them said that in any way that what Laura did was justified.
I am very unhappy with the fact that people right now in this thread are saying they're going to do what Laura did if they were in the same situation. I am also very confused by people suddenly saying that saying "retard" automatically makes you valid. Of the "admins" that have "allowed it", only ONE was named, and I had them explain what happened in the ban appeal itself.
As far as I know there is NO ruling on saying "retard" making you instavalid on ANY count.
I'd find more value in an argument if one claimed that there should be an extensive blanket ban on words that are offensive (in a similar spirit i can pull up a website and argue that all of the words listed should be banned), at least then you can't argue anymore with takes on the level of"This site says so therefore we should..." or "Why is this banned but this isn't? Some people i know might get offended by this."
At the end of the day you can be bigoted and express hate speech without ever mentioning a single slur. But it's much easier to reduce the cases of bigotry by banning specific words that historically have led to violence and death against groups. Rule 11 specifically mentions "... to intentionally demean others." Unless you know the other person is cognitively impaired and specifically target him for that, it then stops being about the word and falls under harassment. If one would get offended by being called a retard for fucking up the engine, he would, without a doubt, get offended by anything that insults his intelligence; moron, idiot, zero braincell'd individual etc.
It's very clear that the admin team feels torn about rule 11. Maybe you guys need to retrain or perhaps does MSO have to revisit the rule to make it more clear for the people that are not very bright?
If i say "What engine are we building today faggots?", would i get immediately bwoinked and noted? Depends on the admin i guess?
I want to make it clear that no admin should say ""retard" is on par with the n-word and that it should be treated under the rule all the same" in such a way that it can be taken as allowance to violate a ruling set by headmins. The ruling has not changed since mothblocks has announced it.
The flarp....seccies fight every shift, someone different wins every shift. You're equating playfighting to robustness???
anyone of those mfs could slap you up with their eyes closed. I asked around and you have a reputation for being unrobust and apparently not very fun to play with (with these people at least) soo....And how would the ahelp on part of the admin side look like? Because by definition of rule 11 you can say slurs that are not used in a bigoted context;Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:47 pmThis is exactly why when someone said something to that effect, I said this:LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:20 pmWhy are you surprised that people twist opinions to fit their narrative? When you have admins telling you that "retard" is on par with the nword and that it should be treated under the rule all the same then, surely, you can see where the confusion begins. "An admin said so, so why should i think of it more?". Strangely, this goes both ways, "This site tells me their (non-legal) opinion therefore it's a definition that i will hold true."Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:24 pmThis is the point where I have to break character and post about this.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:29 pm We are one step closer to becoming Goon. If people, especially admins, put side to side retard and the nword then i can't wait for them to make their (shit) opinions (un)official rulings. Who knows what's next? I don't and i am excited!
"I will fword kill you, you stupid cword! Give me my id back you rword!"
I had talked about this in asay and adminbus while dealing with the ban appeal. Admins, both during and after, had different opinions on the use of the word "retard" as a slur.
Absolutely NONE of them said that in any way that what Laura did was justified.
I am very unhappy with the fact that people right now in this thread are saying they're going to do what Laura did if they were in the same situation. I am also very confused by people suddenly saying that saying "retard" automatically makes you valid. Of the "admins" that have "allowed it", only ONE was named, and I had them explain what happened in the ban appeal itself.
As far as I know there is NO ruling on saying "retard" making you instavalid on ANY count.
I'd find more value in an argument if one claimed that there should be an extensive blanket ban on words that are offensive (in a similar spirit i can pull up a website and argue that all of the words listed should be banned), at least then you can't argue anymore with takes on the level of"This site says so therefore we should..." or "Why is this banned but this isn't? Some people i know might get offended by this."
At the end of the day you can be bigoted and express hate speech without ever mentioning a single slur. But it's much easier to reduce the cases of bigotry by banning specific words that historically have led to violence and death against groups. Rule 11 specifically mentions "... to intentionally demean others." Unless you know the other person is cognitively impaired and specifically target him for that, it then stops being about the word and falls under harassment. If one would get offended by being called a retard for fucking up the engine, he would, without a doubt, get offended by anything that insults his intelligence; moron, idiot, zero braincell'd individual etc.
It's very clear that the admin team feels torn about rule 11. Maybe you guys need to retrain or perhaps does MSO have to revisit the rule to make it more clear for the people that are not very bright?
If i say "What engine are we building today faggots?", would i get immediately bwoinked and noted? Depends on the admin i guess?
If you say the f-word, I can assure you that some admin is going to bwoink you at least, because it's soft-filtered. Personally? I really suggest not using it because it's much more defined by its connections to homosexuality than "retard" to intellectually disabled people.
"What engine are we building today faggots?" is a statement made to be bigoted because...?This means rather than warning or banning for quoting a usage such as "Griff McNazi got banned for calling somebody a faggot" or even things like "nigga pls" and "what are you faggots playing" which are generally not statements made to be bigoted, we'll focus more on statements like "you talk like a [insert stereotype]" or "x is a [insert slur]".
The reason why I personally feel the f-word is less safe is because the use of it in your example was due to the 4chan influence that newer players and admins do not know about. And many of them have only heard of it being used in a bigoted context, whether from their own experience or others.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:55 pm And how would the ahelp on part of the admin side look like? Because by definition of rule 11 you can say slurs that are not used in a bigoted context;
"What engine are we building today faggots?" is a statement made to be bigoted because...?This means rather than warning or banning for quoting a usage such as "Griff McNazi got banned for calling somebody a faggot" or even things like "nigga pls" and "what are you faggots playing" which are generally not statements made to be bigoted, we'll focus more on statements like "you talk like a [insert stereotype]" or "x is a [insert slur]".
"Well, ok, if you say it 1 time then you are not going to get in trouble." Is probably a rational answer to this? Then is word-count, ie how many times you said stuff like that in a round, a good metric for bigotry?
I am getting more convinced that MSO needs to revisit rule 11 now
youre insulting someone by calling them stupid (this is a case across your idiots, morons, etc too) which is like, the r word relates to being mentally disabled. its a harsh descriptor but thats kinda what the word means, the only way it differs from others is that it was used as a medical term
lmao that is a blatant fabrication and I have an affidavit from sinfulbliss, the man himself, attesting to the contrary.kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:48 pm The flarp....seccies fight every shift, someone different wins every shift. You're equating playfighting to robustness???anyone of those mfs could slap you up with their eyes closed. I asked around and you have a reputation for being unrobust and apparently not very fun to play with (with these people at least) soo....
You'd be sacked in the UK if you used that word in a workplace, as I explained above it has different connotations to how Americans use it. Over here it's a nasty insult that belittles people with mental difficulties.It is much easier to explain why the r-word is acceptable, because everyone relates to it being used to call a person an idiot for doing a stupid thing.
Let's agree to disagree here. I'd argue they're equally bigoted terms.if i call someone stupid the n word im associating negative traits like stupidity with being black which is bigoted
they are not on the same level
If an admin that's there to enforce rules cannot discern bigoted expressions from non-bigoted ones then he/she/it has no place in that position to begin with. I think it's clear by now that unless we can generally agree upon on what words are considered bigotry regardless of context -to blanket them under rule 11/headming rulings- then this topic will always generate controversy. It still seems apparent to me that a lot of admins think that slurs=bigotry but rule 11 by definition makes a clear distinction on this matter. This is even more apparent when the playerbase consists of people from all around the world; some have already said that cunt is used regularly in AUS, while others find it -in US, i assume- incredibly offensive. My opinion on this hardly matters, but i am interested in knowing in what lengths can someone argue over a word to ban you. For an admin to make a leap as big as "Retard=nword, treat it the same." is incredibly disturbing because a subjective opinion is taken as a fact to enforce a rule in the wrong spirit.Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:20 pmThe reason why I personally feel the f-word is less safe is because the use of it in your example was due to the 4chan influence that newer players and admins do not know about. And many of them have only heard of it being used in a bigoted context, whether from their own experience or others.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:55 pm And how would the ahelp on part of the admin side look like? Because by definition of rule 11 you can say slurs that are not used in a bigoted context;
"What engine are we building today faggots?" is a statement made to be bigoted because...?This means rather than warning or banning for quoting a usage such as "Griff McNazi got banned for calling somebody a faggot" or even things like "nigga pls" and "what are you faggots playing" which are generally not statements made to be bigoted, we'll focus more on statements like "you talk like a [insert stereotype]" or "x is a [insert slur]".
"Well, ok, if you say it 1 time then you are not going to get in trouble." Is probably a rational answer to this? Then is word-count, ie how many times you said stuff like that in a round, a good metric for bigotry?
I am getting more convinced that MSO needs to revisit rule 11 now
It is much easier to explain why the r-word is acceptable, because everyone relates to it being used to call a person an idiot for doing a stupid thing.
You are very correct in that that is how it should be applied, we usually use the ahelp to tell them to be careful with usage unless it's spammed or used derogatory.
And you do not want MSO to revisit rule 11. Part of the reason Rule 11 is so messy is because headmins had to fight with MSO on phrasing of Rule 11 to begin with.
Honestly this just makes him seem more based
We'll the UK is a dystopia when it comes to it comes to words that hurt someone's feeling.kayozz wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:27 pmYou'd be sacked in the UK if you used that word in a workplace, as I explained above it has different connotations to how Americans use it. Over here it's a nasty insult that belittles people with mental difficulties.It is much easier to explain why the r-word is acceptable, because everyone relates to it being used to call a person an idiot for doing a stupid thing.
So no it's not acceptable everywhere.
Let's agree to disagree here. I'd argue they're equally bigoted terms.if i call someone stupid the n word im associating negative traits like stupidity with being black which is bigoted
they are not on the same level
A lot of you are clearly generalising that the world only exists on America's terms, because it's fine in America you seem to think it's fine elsewhere.
All I'm saying is... Just because you've been socially conditioned to think it's fine, it doesn't mean it's fine everywhere. The R word is a bigoted term against mentally disabled people.
Anyway, I've made my point. Just something to think about.
Ignoring the point of "They are absolutely not the same because you wrote out 'retard' and shortened the other to 'n-word'" because someone else already made it;Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:46 pm The argument here is if the word "retard" is considered a slur or not.
Professional mental health organizations, especially those working closely with special needs individuals, have deemed it a slur.
The second question we have to ask is where TG draws the line, we already agree that the n-word shouldn't be said. Why is the word "retard" different if its already classified as a slur?
Donglesplonge wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:24 pm this is all solved by paying the admins to gibsmite people you don't like
Blanketing is very difficult, nay, almost impossible, especially when you have MSO around to argue. Even the n-word isn't technically banned despite the fact it's a ethnic slur mostly used against black people. The headmins had to make compromises in order to get to the rule 11 we have now. It's also due to admins having different cultures that this rule is like that. This is exactly why I brought it up in asay and admin-bus - to get different takes before acting. All of them said that the CMO was wrong to shoot down the QM, despite their differences in opinion.LEDDDriver wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:55 pm If an admin that's there to enforce rules cannot discern bigoted expressions from non-bigoted ones then he/she/it has no place in that position to begin with. I think it's clear by now that unless we can generally agree upon on what words are considered bigotry regardless of context -to blanket them under rule 11/headming rulings- then this topic will always generate controversy. It still seems apparent to me that a lot of admins think that slurs=bigotry but rule 11 by definition makes a clear distinction on this matter. This is even more apparent when the playerbase consists of people from all around the world; some have already said that cunt is used regularly in AUS, while others find it -in US, i assume- incredibly offensive. My opinion on this hardly matters, but i am interested in knowing in what lengths can someone argue over a word to ban you. For an admin to make a leap as big as "Retard=nword, treat it the same." is incredibly disturbing because a subjective opinion is taken as a fact to enforce a rule in the wrong spirit.
We all know that Manny sec mains like jeff gaming are the most robust sec players
wonder how they would feel if they were gunned down over this? would they ahelp it and want the other person banned? the second instance was in dchat, so it's not like they were roleplaying their character calling someone that. they were calling a player a retard directly.[2023-08-15 19:08:36.440] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Laura Winters) "THIS RETARD" (Central Primary Hallway (113,143,4))
[2023-08-16 08:22:13.148] GAME-SAY: Thranos/(Lingden Wilkerson) (DEAD) "I DID RETARD" (First Floor Fore Hallway (74,126,2))
I've been telling people this for ages. Just OBSERVE how quickly they'll ignore their own stay in their lane rules to desperately swarm over a valid and it shows enough.Timberpoes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:55 pm And people say Manuel isn't like our other servers.
It's an MRP Terry.